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#21
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UPS Recommendations?
What good is a UPS if you assume it is OK when battery is dead? That
is worse than no UPS. Newer design UPSes will not permit AC power if the UPS battery is defective so that you remove a non-working UPS. A desirable feature. AC electricity comes directly from AC mains - not even through surge protectors (UPS does not even claim such surge protection in numerical specifications - that protection is promoted only by myths). If a UPS battery is dead, you want UPS to not power anything - to announce it is non-functional. Typical UPS battery life expectancy is about 3 years. Serious UPS systems feature a battery life of less than 20 years. Even automobile batteries exposed to temperature extremes last seven and nine years. Battery life expectancy is a function of battery quality and of how battery charge is provided and maintained. But a computer grade UPS is designed to be 'as cheap as possible' which is why plug-in UPS batteries die quickly. Is your UPS battery failing? With a digital volt meter and during a load, determine UPS battery integrity quickly. There is no reason to be swapping parts until something works. A meter identifies failures quickly and can even report a failure before that failure happens. Human then has sufficient time to find a new battery and prepare for that failure. Estimate about three years for a UPS battery. Figure even less time if UPS is constantly switching to battery backup mode. UPS is for computer data protection. Meanwhile, low AC voltage does not cause power supply to work harder. Computer power supplies even 30 years ago either worked just fine at all voltages, or shutdown. Low voltage causing power supply failure is nothing more than speculation, or a power supply that is missing essential functions. All computer power supplies are required to work just fine even when voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs are at less than 40% intensity. Required even 30+ years ago. Suspect UPS battery is ready to fail after three years. Others have demonstrated even faster failure rates. Remember, the plug-in UPS is designed to be as inexpensive as possible. Kyle wrote: It stands to reason that a low input voltage to a PC power supply might force the switching regulator circuits to work much harder than normal to maintain rated outputs, causing overheating in the caps and thus failures, particularly cheap branded PS units with cheap capacitors. I've also seen cheap caps in more expensive PS units, ya never know what you're gonna get any more. As to AC power stability from the power utility, I see brief or momentary power outages all the time in my area, I live in a large midwestern US city and see power drops mostly on clear sunny days (iow, not weather related). Oddly, I usually hear what sounds like a very loud gunshot in the distance when power dropouts occur (I live about 1 mile from the power substation). Since I work out of my home, I invested in UPS protection for all critical systems, and some not so critical systems (hehe, my gaming rig). |
#22
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UPS Recommendations?
"Newer design UPSes will not permit AC power if the UPS battery is
defective so that you remove a non-working UPS. A desirable feature." First, I don't belive that this is true of the class of UPS' that consumers buy (let's say products under 1KVA and under about $150). Further, the only way that you would even know if the battery was "dead" (meaning insufficiently alive to run the UPS for at least a long enough period of time for the computer to shut down) would be to actually run off of battery power. Because a no-load measurement of the batttery voltage doesn't really tell you anything. The way that the retail UPS' work is that they run the AC mains through a surge protector to the "surge protected" outlets. [I categorically challenge your assertion that "UPS does not even claim such surge protection" -- in fact, all of the APC retail class of UPS' have two distinct sets of outlets, labeled (on my unit under this desk) "surge protected" and "battery backup plus surge protection"]. The surge protected AC mains also goes to a relay. The load is connected to the armature of the relay, which can switch between the surge protected AC mains and the output of the inverter (which runs from the battery). Normally, when AC power is "ok", the load is connected directly to the surge protected AC mains, and the inverter is either not running at all, or is only running for phase synchronization, producing no power. When a "power line event" occurs, the inverter starts and the relay switches the load from the surge protected AC mains to the inverter output. The load is presumed to be capable of handling an interruption of up to one AC power line cycle (16 milliseconds) for the inverter startup and switching to occur. On most products the relay is a mechanical relay and you can hear it "click" as the switch occurs. There are "full time" UPS' that always run the load from the inverter, but they are relatively expensive and they are not in the class of products that are commonly sold in a retail environment for use with PC class products. w_tom wrote: What good is a UPS if you assume it is OK when battery is dead? That is worse than no UPS. Newer design UPSes will not permit AC power if the UPS battery is defective so that you remove a non-working UPS. A desirable feature. AC electricity comes directly from AC mains - not even through surge protectors (UPS does not even claim such surge protection in numerical specifications - that protection is promoted only by myths). If a UPS battery is dead, you want UPS to not power anything - to announce it is non-functional. Typical UPS battery life expectancy is about 3 years. Serious UPS systems feature a battery life of less than 20 years. Even automobile batteries exposed to temperature extremes last seven and nine years. Battery life expectancy is a function of battery quality and of how battery charge is provided and maintained. But a computer grade UPS is designed to be 'as cheap as possible' which is why plug-in UPS batteries die quickly. Is your UPS battery failing? With a digital volt meter and during a load, determine UPS battery integrity quickly. There is no reason to be swapping parts until something works. A meter identifies failures quickly and can even report a failure before that failure happens. Human then has sufficient time to find a new battery and prepare for that failure. Estimate about three years for a UPS battery. Figure even less time if UPS is constantly switching to battery backup mode. UPS is for computer data protection. Meanwhile, low AC voltage does not cause power supply to work harder. Computer power supplies even 30 years ago either worked just fine at all voltages, or shutdown. Low voltage causing power supply failure is nothing more than speculation, or a power supply that is missing essential functions. All computer power supplies are required to work just fine even when voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs are at less than 40% intensity. Required even 30+ years ago. Suspect UPS battery is ready to fail after three years. Others have demonstrated even faster failure rates. Remember, the plug-in UPS is designed to be as inexpensive as possible. Kyle wrote: It stands to reason that a low input voltage to a PC power supply might force the switching regulator circuits to work much harder than normal to maintain rated outputs, causing overheating in the caps and thus failures, particularly cheap branded PS units with cheap capacitors. I've also seen cheap caps in more expensive PS units, ya never know what you're gonna get any more. As to AC power stability from the power utility, I see brief or momentary power outages all the time in my area, I live in a large midwestern US city and see power drops mostly on clear sunny days (iow, not weather related). Oddly, I usually hear what sounds like a very loud gunshot in the distance when power dropouts occur (I live about 1 mile from the power substation). Since I work out of my home, I invested in UPS protection for all critical systems, and some not so critical systems (hehe, my gaming rig). |
#23
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UPS Recommendations?
Perhaps you might explain to me why the output filter caps in a
switching supply are typically rated at 105 degrees C? It is fair to assume this rating is necessary because the current flowing in the filter caps of a typical buck converter circuit is substantial and does induce significant heat in the output filters. Now, consider the scenario created by an undervoltage input condition, either the power switching devices will fail due to the need to conduct more current to maintain output voltages, or the output caps will fail due to higher currents delivered from the coil, assuming a constant power requirement at the output of the switching circuit (which requirement is typical). I suppose in a sense your comment is pertinent in that, according to some experts, it is, in theory, more likely the semiconductor devices will fail before the output caps fail. Overcurrent protection circuits limit the maximum current that can flow in the output filter inductor typically. The need for these circuits is two-fold, to minimize output voltage overshoot when the load changes value rapidly, and to prevent overcurrent conditions in the switching devices and the output caps. To put it more simply, I've changed more caps in mobo Vcore switching circuits than I've changed power MOSFETs to repair the circuit to operational status. What I've seen is caps that can't take the load, overheat, and blow their seals. Maybe you can more fully explain your point or offer an alternative analysis. -- Best regards, Kyle "Barry Watzman" wrote in message ... | No. | | Capacitors are used for filtering. They would not react as you hypothesize. | | | Kyle wrote: | | wrote in message | oups.com... | | Yes, I understand that the cheaper ones don't use the battery unless | of | | an outage, or dip. However, the power in my area is very unstable. | | The first month I had the UPS, it switched on over 100 times per the | | software counter. It's a little better now. | | | | I had 2 PSU's blow and other hardware instability while the bad | battery | | was in place. Replace the battery, or bypass the UPS and things | work | | fine. The battery was kicking out about 80V when switched on per | VO | | meter. It did handle a 100W light okay. What else could it have | been | | if not the battery? I still have it so I could test it if I new | how. | | | | It stands to reason that a low input voltage to a PC power supply | might force the switching regulator circuits to work much harder than | normal to maintain rated outputs, causing overheating in the caps and | thus failures, particularly cheap branded PS units with cheap | capacitors. I've also seen cheap caps in more expensive PS units, ya | never know what you're gonna get any more. | | As to AC power stability from the power utility, I see brief or | momentary power outages all the time in my area, I live in a large | midwestern US city and see power drops mostly on clear sunny days | (iow, not weather related). Oddly, I usually hear what sounds like a | very loud gunshot in the distance when power dropouts occur (I live | about 1 mile from the power substation). Since I work out of my home, | I invested in UPS protection for all critical systems, and some not so | critical systems (hehe, my gaming rig). |
#24
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UPS Recommendations?
Some have reported that their UPS would not provide AC power until a
dead battery was replaced. Nothing claimed that function was standard in all UPSes. But it appears to be a function in some newer UPSes - a desirable function - and not difficult to design even to these computer grade (least expensive) UPSes - not what you called 'full time'. UPSes do not connect "through surge protected" outlets. Disconnect surge protector components, then plug them into another wall receptacle outlet. 'Surge protection' circuit remains unchange. Protector circuit connects as if it was another light bulb on same AC circuit. There is nothing - no surge protector - between AC mains and 'protected' outlets. If you know otherwise, then describe the schematic connection (series mode devices) by breaking open a UPS. If your UPS actually claims surge protection in numerical specs, then list numbers that define protection for each type of surge. And good luck. APC stopped discussing types of surges long ago so that embarrassing questions are not asked. Protection is from a surge that typically does not cause damage. Manufacturers wants you to assume and then to promote myths. Once APC did list a type of surge. Still no numbers that define proteciton: SURGE PROTECTION AND FILTERING ... Normal mode clamping response time 0 ns, instantaneous Normal mode surge voltage let through 5% of test peak voltage when subjected to IEEE 587 Cat. A 6kVA test Normal mode noise suppression Full time EMI/RFI filtering You believe a protector circuit sits between AC mains and electronics - a series mode protector? Good. Then numerical specs also define number of dBs. None listed. No numbers. Why? Because no series mode protection exists - nothing between AC mains and UPS relay. Protector components - MOVs - are shunt mode devices. APC no longer mentions surge modes so that you will not ask embarrassing questons. Well I am asking. Where are these nubmers for each type surge? No numbers because assumed protection does not exist. Barry Watzman wrote: "Newer design UPSes will not permit AC power if the UPS battery is defective so that you remove a non-working UPS. A desirable feature." First, I don't belive that this is true of the class of UPS' that consumers buy (let's say products under 1KVA and under about $150). Further, the only way that you would even know if the battery was "dead" (meaning insufficiently alive to run the UPS for at least a long enough period of time for the computer to shut down) would be to actually run off of battery power. Because a no-load measurement of the batttery voltage doesn't really tell you anything. The way that the retail UPS' work is that they run the AC mains through a surge protector to the "surge protected" outlets. [I categorically challenge your assertion that "UPS does not even claim such surge protection" -- in fact, all of the APC retail class of UPS' have two distinct sets of outlets, labeled (on my unit under this desk) "surge protected" and "battery backup plus surge protection"]. The surge protected AC mains also goes to a relay. The load is connected to the armature of the relay, which can switch between the surge protected AC mains and the output of the inverter (which runs from the battery). Normally, when AC power is "ok", the load is connected directly to the surge protected AC mains, and the inverter is either not running at all, or is only running for phase synchronization, producing no power. When a "power line event" occurs, the inverter starts and the relay switches the load from the surge protected AC mains to the inverter output. The load is presumed to be capable of handling an interruption of up to one AC power line cycle (16 milliseconds) for the inverter startup and switching to occur. On most products the relay is a mechanical relay and you can hear it "click" as the switch occurs. There are "full time" UPS' that always run the load from the inverter, but they are relatively expensive and they are not in the class of products that are commonly sold in a retail environment for use with PC class products. |
#25
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UPS Recommendations?
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:39:17 -0400, Barry Watzman
wrote: "Newer design UPSes will not permit AC power if the UPS battery is defective so that you remove a non-working UPS. A desirable feature." First, I don't belive that this is true of the class of UPS' that consumers buy (let's say products under 1KVA and under about $150). It is certainly true of my APC Back-UPS Pro 650 Peter Finney Liphook Hampshire England |
#26
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UPS Recommendations?
105C is a temperature rating. It may have as much to do with the
ambient temperature inside the power supply as with anything related to the capacitor itself. But the current flow into/out of the filter caps can be substantial ... in an extreme case, the caps must momentarily supply nearly the entire power supply load (20 amps or more), although only for a very brief time (microseconds). The capacitors are on the output (secondary) side of the pulse switching transformer. Therefore, they don't see and are not subject to a low (undervoltage) condition on the AC power line input, as long as the input doesn't go so low that the switching circuit can no longer produce the necessary output on the secondary side (at which point the supply should simply shut down completely). The problems that occured with electrolytic caps (that caused massive numbers of failures in Vcore supplies on motherboards, but also elsewhere) were due to the use of an improperly formulated electrolyte in the capacitors. These caps were truly defective the day that they were manufactured, and you can't attribute anything about the way that they behaved (or failed) to normal, properly manufactured parts. Kyle wrote: Perhaps you might explain to me why the output filter caps in a switching supply are typically rated at 105 degrees C? It is fair to assume this rating is necessary because the current flowing in the filter caps of a typical buck converter circuit is substantial and does induce significant heat in the output filters. Now, consider the scenario created by an undervoltage input condition, either the power switching devices will fail due to the need to conduct more current to maintain output voltages, or the output caps will fail due to higher currents delivered from the coil, assuming a constant power requirement at the output of the switching circuit (which requirement is typical). I suppose in a sense your comment is pertinent in that, according to some experts, it is, in theory, more likely the semiconductor devices will fail before the output caps fail. Overcurrent protection circuits limit the maximum current that can flow in the output filter inductor typically. The need for these circuits is two-fold, to minimize output voltage overshoot when the load changes value rapidly, and to prevent overcurrent conditions in the switching devices and the output caps. To put it more simply, I've changed more caps in mobo Vcore switching circuits than I've changed power MOSFETs to repair the circuit to operational status. What I've seen is caps that can't take the load, overheat, and blow their seals. Maybe you can more fully explain your point or offer an alternative analysis. |
#27
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UPS Recommendations?
Your statement that "There is nothing - no surge protector - between AC
mains and 'protected' outlets" is simply wrong for the UPS' that I have taken apart (mostly APC). The incomming line goes to a surge protector (MOVs and inductors), and everything (both the UPS and those outlets that don't get battery power) is on the output side of this surge protector. I won't argue that on some UPS' this is not the case and that your statement may be correct. But a "quality" UPS should include surge protection, and the ones that I've opened up do. This is internal, inside the UPS, it's not something external that the UPS' plug into. APC also has (I think; had for sure) a "connected equipment guarantee", a type of insurance, in which they would cover damage to equipment connected to their UPS' caused by surges. w_tom wrote: Some have reported that their UPS would not provide AC power until a dead battery was replaced. Nothing claimed that function was standard in all UPSes. But it appears to be a function in some newer UPSes - a desirable function - and not difficult to design even to these computer grade (least expensive) UPSes - not what you called 'full time'. UPSes do not connect "through surge protected" outlets. Disconnect surge protector components, then plug them into another wall receptacle outlet. 'Surge protection' circuit remains unchange. Protector circuit connects as if it was another light bulb on same AC circuit. There is nothing - no surge protector - between AC mains and 'protected' outlets. If you know otherwise, then describe the schematic connection (series mode devices) by breaking open a UPS. If your UPS actually claims surge protection in numerical specs, then list numbers that define protection for each type of surge. And good luck. APC stopped discussing types of surges long ago so that embarrassing questions are not asked. Protection is from a surge that typically does not cause damage. Manufacturers wants you to assume and then to promote myths. Once APC did list a type of surge. Still no numbers that define proteciton: SURGE PROTECTION AND FILTERING ... Normal mode clamping response time 0 ns, instantaneous Normal mode surge voltage let through 5% of test peak voltage when subjected to IEEE 587 Cat. A 6kVA test Normal mode noise suppression Full time EMI/RFI filtering You believe a protector circuit sits between AC mains and electronics - a series mode protector? Good. Then numerical specs also define number of dBs. None listed. No numbers. Why? Because no series mode protection exists - nothing between AC mains and UPS relay. Protector components - MOVs - are shunt mode devices. APC no longer mentions surge modes so that you will not ask embarrassing questons. Well I am asking. Where are these nubmers for each type surge? No numbers because assumed protection does not exist. Barry Watzman wrote: "Newer design UPSes will not permit AC power if the UPS battery is defective so that you remove a non-working UPS. A desirable feature." First, I don't belive that this is true of the class of UPS' that consumers buy (let's say products under 1KVA and under about $150). Further, the only way that you would even know if the battery was "dead" (meaning insufficiently alive to run the UPS for at least a long enough period of time for the computer to shut down) would be to actually run off of battery power. Because a no-load measurement of the batttery voltage doesn't really tell you anything. The way that the retail UPS' work is that they run the AC mains through a surge protector to the "surge protected" outlets. [I categorically challenge your assertion that "UPS does not even claim such surge protection" -- in fact, all of the APC retail class of UPS' have two distinct sets of outlets, labeled (on my unit under this desk) "surge protected" and "battery backup plus surge protection"]. The surge protected AC mains also goes to a relay. The load is connected to the armature of the relay, which can switch between the surge protected AC mains and the output of the inverter (which runs from the battery). Normally, when AC power is "ok", the load is connected directly to the surge protected AC mains, and the inverter is either not running at all, or is only running for phase synchronization, producing no power. When a "power line event" occurs, the inverter starts and the relay switches the load from the surge protected AC mains to the inverter output. The load is presumed to be capable of handling an interruption of up to one AC power line cycle (16 milliseconds) for the inverter startup and switching to occur. On most products the relay is a mechanical relay and you can hear it "click" as the switch occurs. There are "full time" UPS' that always run the load from the inverter, but they are relatively expensive and they are not in the class of products that are commonly sold in a retail environment for use with PC class products. |
#28
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UPS Recommendations?
1) If an incoming AC mains line goes through MOVs, then no
electricity is delivered to that 'surge protected' receptacle. Know what an MOV does. It conducts no electricity - acts like an open switch - until voltage exceeds its threshold or let-through voltage. That let-through voltage is typically 330 volts. How does 120 volts appear on the 'surge protected' outlet when it takes 330 volts to start current through the MOV? You said the incoming line goes through MOVs. How? MOVs are open circuit switches when no surge exists? Apparently the UPS was not yet opened to learn what the 'surge protected' receptacle connects to. Obviously it does not connect through MOVs. So where is this surge protection? Well, defined was how MOVs connect. Remove them from the UPS and connect them to the other outlet in a duplex wall receptacle. Same protector circuit. 2) Meanwhile, numerical specs from that UPS were not provided. Simply providing those numbers would have proved your claim. You don't provide numbers because the UPS does not claim to provide such protection. APC once claimed to protect from one type surge. But it did not and does not claim to protect from surges that are typically destructive. 3) Meanwhile look at that "connected equipment guarantee". So full of fine print exemptions that a claim will never be honored. But again, they make subjective claims hoping you don't look at those fine print details nor look at the numerical specifications. What are components between AC mains and a 'surge protected' receptacle? A fuse? Fuse is surge protection? Not for one minute. You said MOVs are in that circuit. Again, they are not. Did you look - or just assume? Those too few MOVs - and again, where are numerical specs - do not connect as assumed. Obvious: when an MOV is understood, it acts as a normally open circuit switch. But again, where is this protection when manufacturer does not even claim same in numerical specifications? No surge protector components between AC mains and relay. No numbers claim that protection exists. A guarantee chock full of exemptions. So where is this series mode protection? If my statement is wrong, then simply list 'in series' electrical components and post numerical specs. You cite neither because no such devices and series mode protection exist. Meanwhile, some UPSes will not provide AC power when battery is not functional. Battery life expectancy is typically three years. A multimeter is a powerful tool to identify a failing battery before that battery actually fails. Barry Watzman wrote: Your statement that "There is nothing - no surge protector - between AC mains and 'protected' outlets" is simply wrong for the UPS' that I have taken apart (mostly APC). The incomming line goes to a surge protector (MOVs and inductors), and everything (both the UPS and those outlets that don't get battery power) is on the output side of this surge protector. I won't argue that on some UPS' this is not the case and that your statement may be correct. But a "quality" UPS should include surge protection, and the ones that I've opened up do. This is internal, inside the UPS, it's not something external that the UPS' plug into. APC also has (I think; had for sure) a "connected equipment guarantee", a type of insurance, in which they would cover damage to equipment connected to their UPS' caused by surges. |
#29
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UPS Recommendations?
Electricity does not go "through" MOVs. MOVs (metal oxide varistors)
are connected across the power line (in parallel with the load), not in series with the load. The fact that you don't know this very basic information leads me to totally discredit your knowledge of the entire subject matter of this thread. w_tom wrote: 1) If an incoming AC mains line goes through MOVs, then no electricity is delivered to that 'surge protected' receptacle. Know what an MOV does. It conducts no electricity - acts like an open switch - until voltage exceeds its threshold or let-through voltage. That let-through voltage is typically 330 volts. How does 120 volts appear on the 'surge protected' outlet when it takes 330 volts to start current through the MOV? You said the incoming line goes through MOVs. How? MOVs are open circuit switches when no surge exists? Apparently the UPS was not yet opened to learn what the 'surge protected' receptacle connects to. Obviously it does not connect through MOVs. So where is this surge protection? Well, defined was how MOVs connect. Remove them from the UPS and connect them to the other outlet in a duplex wall receptacle. Same protector circuit. 2) Meanwhile, numerical specs from that UPS were not provided. Simply providing those numbers would have proved your claim. You don't provide numbers because the UPS does not claim to provide such protection. APC once claimed to protect from one type surge. But it did not and does not claim to protect from surges that are typically destructive. 3) Meanwhile look at that "connected equipment guarantee". So full of fine print exemptions that a claim will never be honored. But again, they make subjective claims hoping you don't look at those fine print details nor look at the numerical specifications. What are components between AC mains and a 'surge protected' receptacle? A fuse? Fuse is surge protection? Not for one minute. You said MOVs are in that circuit. Again, they are not. Did you look - or just assume? Those too few MOVs - and again, where are numerical specs - do not connect as assumed. Obvious: when an MOV is understood, it acts as a normally open circuit switch. But again, where is this protection when manufacturer does not even claim same in numerical specifications? No surge protector components between AC mains and relay. No numbers claim that protection exists. A guarantee chock full of exemptions. So where is this series mode protection? If my statement is wrong, then simply list 'in series' electrical components and post numerical specs. You cite neither because no such devices and series mode protection exist. Meanwhile, some UPSes will not provide AC power when battery is not functional. Battery life expectancy is typically three years. A multimeter is a powerful tool to identify a failing battery before that battery actually fails. Barry Watzman wrote: Your statement that "There is nothing - no surge protector - between AC mains and 'protected' outlets" is simply wrong for the UPS' that I have taken apart (mostly APC). The incomming line goes to a surge protector (MOVs and inductors), and everything (both the UPS and those outlets that don't get battery power) is on the output side of this surge protector. I won't argue that on some UPS' this is not the case and that your statement may be correct. But a "quality" UPS should include surge protection, and the ones that I've opened up do. This is internal, inside the UPS, it's not something external that the UPS' plug into. APC also has (I think; had for sure) a "connected equipment guarantee", a type of insurance, in which they would cover damage to equipment connected to their UPS' caused by surges. |
#30
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UPS Recommendations?
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 06:28:37 -0400, Barry Watzman
wrote: The problems that occured with electrolytic caps (that caused massive numbers of failures in Vcore supplies on motherboards, but also elsewhere) were due to the use of an improperly formulated electrolyte in the capacitors. These caps were truly defective the day that they were manufactured, and you can't attribute anything about the way that they behaved (or failed) to normal, properly manufactured parts. http://www.burtonsys.com/bad_BP6/story1.html http://www.niccomp.com/taiwanlowesr.htm http://www.edn.com/article/CA255062.html?partner=enews http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=195 http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,933571,00.asp http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=24596 http://badcaps.net/ |
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