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PC Behaving badly
Over the past few months, my system has become unstable. I'm running
Windows XP on a VIA V21G board based system. The first clue was that once in a while, when I would boot up I'd get the message "The system has recovered from a serious error" It wanted to send a report or something, and I usually had to click "don't send" 2 or 3 times, because it would pop back up. On the primary IDE/PATA controller, I have a ~ 8 month old Seagate 300 GB HDD as master, and a BenQ DVD drive as slave. On the secondary IDE controller, I have a mobile rack with ~ 2 year old Seagate HDD as primary master, and an old Lite-On CD-ROM drive as slave. Everything was working fine, but maybe a month after I saw the first "serious error" message, the system simply wouldn't boot. Hard drive lights stayed on. I removed the mobile rack drive and was able to boot up fine. I took the mobile rack drive to a friend's place who had a similar setup, inserted the drive into his mobile rack, and although his system would boot, it could not see my drive. So, later on I removed the drive in question, installed it in another computer, and was able to read from and write to it with no problems at all. I reformatted it on the other PC, and it works fine. At that point, I started wondering if part of the mobile rack was screwy, so I completely replaced it (both the part that goes with the drive, and the part you install in the PC) with a backup one I had on the shelf. I have double checked to make sure the terminus drive is set to master, and no jumper settings have been changed since the initial setup. Even with the mobile rack removed, if I take a known working IDE drive and hook it up as secondary master, the computer will do the same thing - it takes a long while "detecting IDE drives" - something I don't normally even notice, but it does this for about a minute. It does detect them properly, though. Then it says "Verifying DMI Pool Data". It shows this message for 2 to 3 minutes, then tries to boot from CD. After this, it gives the "Disk Boot Failure" message. I can then disconnect the drive, and the system boots up just fine. However, now I have some other issues arising: 1) system now occasionally reboots while running some of the more intensive applications (especially games) 2) about a week ago, the system could no longer even see the onboard LAN. It's like it no longer exists, and so I can't back up files or watch videos over my network 3) Yesterday, the system no longer sees the USB ports. I can't use a flash drive to back anything up. Thankfully, I did a full backup of files last month, and not a whole lot has changed since then Obviously, I'd like to figure out whether this has something to do with: A) corrupted files on the hard drive B) controller or hardware going bad on the hard drive or C) motherboard problem I can easily remove the hard drive in question, format it, and then run some sort of stability test on it. If it comes up stable, then I'll assume it is a motherboard issue. Can anyone recommend a utility I can download and use to test a hard drive thoroughly for issues? |
#2
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PC Behaving badly
"OhioGuy" wrote in message ... Over the past few months, my system has become unstable. I'm running Windows XP on a VIA V21G board based system. The first clue was that once in a while, when I would boot up I'd get the message "The system has recovered from a serious error" It wanted to send a report or something, and I usually had to click "don't send" 2 or 3 times, because it would pop back up. On the primary IDE/PATA controller, I have a ~ 8 month old Seagate 300 GB HDD as master, and a BenQ DVD drive as slave. On the secondary IDE controller, I have a mobile rack with ~ 2 year old Seagate HDD as primary master, and an old Lite-On CD-ROM drive as slave. Everything was working fine, but maybe a month after I saw the first "serious error" message, the system simply wouldn't boot. snipped a fair bit. .. You can d/load hard drive testing stuff from the drive manufacturers site. Seagate =... http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/sup...loads/seatools That should be able to test your other (manu) drive as well. I think as long as you have 1 Seagate it will work. bw.. |
#3
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PC Behaving badly
On Dec 17, 10:53 am, "OhioGuy" wrote:
Over the past few months, my system has become unstable. I'm running Windows XP on a VIA V21G board based system. The first clue was that once in a while, when I would boot up I'd get the message "The system has recovered from a serious error" It wanted to send a report or something, and I usually had to click "don't send" 2 or 3 times, because it would pop back up. ... So, later on I removed the drive in question, installed it in another computer, and was able to read from and write to it with no problems at all. I reformatted it on the other PC, and it works fine. IOW a perfectly good part was fixed because the defect was not first identified. It is called shotgunning. We learn from our mistakes. Appreciate why you still have a failure. Shotgunning. Solution means moving things from an 'unknown' state to either 'definitively good' or 'definitively bad'. That means numbers and other facts. The drive was swapped because speculation was assumed to be fact. RobV has posted some useful tools. But the one function that can make everything look defective is a power supply 'system'. More than just a power supply. Other parts form a 'system'. Two minutes with a meter and this procedure means the entire 'system' is moved from 'unknown' to 'definitively something'. "When your computer dies without warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp at: http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh In your case, important numbers are from any one orange, red, yellow, and purple wire when all peripherals are accessed (multitasked) simultaneously. All numbers must exceed 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7 VDC under these maximum loads. These numbers are different from (and base in) RobV's numbers (for engineering reasons). Only after the supply 'system' is 'definitively good', then move on to other suspects. Disc diagnostics from the computer or disk manufacturer can also move that system from 'unknown' to 'definitively ...'. Memtst86 may identify defective memory. But sometimes only when the test is executed during normally higher temperatures - such as when heated by a hairdryer on highest heat setting. Temperatures uncomfortable to touch but does not burn skin. If memory passes Memtst86 diagnostics at elevated (normal) temperatures, then memory moves to the 'definitively good' category. Once a defect is identified, only then is the suspect replaced. Those procedures also provide numbers so that others with better knowledge can also provide useful information. Connector corrosion is not a reason for failure. If corrosion causes failures, then electronics are designed defectively. Properly designed connectors are also self cleaning - break and make a connection cleans them. Electronics also include noise margins that make corrosion irrelevant. If connector corrosion causes problems, then electronics may be defective. Don't replace anything on speculation - shotgunning. RobV provided some tools to first find the problem. Meanwhile, also collect other facts from system 'event' logs and from Device Manager? If necessary, use Windows' Help to find them. |
#4
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PC Behaving badly
I don't really consider this "shotgunning". That would be just randomly
removing a part and testing it. I was having a hard drive related message come up on bootup, and I happened to have a couple of spare hard drives laying around in known working condition. Therefore, it was a simple thing to replace the hard drive to see if replacing it might fix the issue. It really does appear to be some sort of issue caused by having the old CD-ROM drive on the same data cable. Reseating the data cables didn't catch that, but running the system without the data cable hooked to the CD-ROM drive did. The really strange thing is that the mobile rack drive works fine now, and it works fine when taken out and hooked up to my PC in the basement. However, it could not be accessed on my friend's computer. He has another mobile rack like mine, and hasn't had any problems with it. His system would boot up ok with this drive in it, but could not see it. Strange. |
#5
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PC Behaving badly
The vast majority of users should not open the case of a computer while it is turned on and definitely should not probe around inside of a live PC. If you need voltage readings, look at the BIOS setup screens of any modern mainboard. w_tom w_tom1 usa.net wrote: Path: newssvr11.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm04.news.prodigy. net!newsdst01.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.com!newscon 04.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!p ostnews.google.com!i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail From: w_tom w_tom1 usa.net Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt Subject: PC Behaving badly Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:52:52 -0800 (PST) Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 64 Message-ID: 8a7b6377-c83f-4bd7-92dc-378171284ad6 i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com References: fk664k$6e1$1 aioe.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.239.75.210 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1197949972 2463 127.0.0.1 (18 Dec 2007 03:52:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 03:52:52 +0000 (UTC) Complaints-To: groups-abuse google.com Injection-Info: i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=4.239.75.210; posting-account=s0TWQwkAAABF0w4hiDH6XGaa8DHFtAwv User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Xref: prodigy.net alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt:499928 On Dec 17, 10:53 am, "OhioGuy" n... none.net wrote: Over the past few months, my system has become unstable. I'm running Windows XP on a VIA V21G board based system. The first clue was that once in a while, when I would boot up I'd get the message "The system has recovered from a serious error" It wanted to send a report or something, and I usually had to click "don't send" 2 or 3 times, because it would pop back up. ... So, later on I removed the drive in question, installed it in another computer, and was able to read from and write to it with no problems at all. I reformatted it on the other PC, and it works fine. IOW a perfectly good part was fixed because the defect was not first identified. It is called shotgunning. We learn from our mistakes. Appreciate why you still have a failure. Shotgunning. Solution means moving things from an 'unknown' state to either 'definitively good' or 'definitively bad'. That means numbers and other facts. The drive was swapped because speculation was assumed to be fact. RobV has posted some useful tools. But the one function that can make everything look defective is a power supply 'system'. More than just a power supply. Other parts form a 'system'. Two minutes with a meter and this procedure means the entire 'system' is moved from 'unknown' to 'definitively something'. "When your computer dies without warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp at: http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh In your case, important numbers are from any one orange, red, yellow, and purple wire when all peripherals are accessed (multitasked) simultaneously. All numbers must exceed 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7 VDC under these maximum loads. These numbers are different from (and base in) RobV's numbers (for engineering reasons). Only after the supply 'system' is 'definitively good', then move on to other suspects. Disc diagnostics from the computer or disk manufacturer can also move that system from 'unknown' to 'definitively ...'. Memtst86 may identify defective memory. But sometimes only when the test is executed during normally higher temperatures - such as when heated by a hairdryer on highest heat setting. Temperatures uncomfortable to touch but does not burn skin. If memory passes Memtst86 diagnostics at elevated (normal) temperatures, then memory moves to the 'definitively good' category. Once a defect is identified, only then is the suspect replaced. Those procedures also provide numbers so that others with better knowledge can also provide useful information. Connector corrosion is not a reason for failure. If corrosion causes failures, then electronics are designed defectively. Properly designed connectors are also self cleaning - break and make a connection cleans them. Electronics also include noise margins that make corrosion irrelevant. If connector corrosion causes problems, then electronics may be defective. Don't replace anything on speculation - shotgunning. RobV provided some tools to first find the problem. Meanwhile, also collect other facts from system 'event' logs and from Device Manager? If necessary, use Windows' Help to find them. |
#6
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PC Behaving badly
'Strange' suggests nothing learned by swapping parts. For example,
if reseating a data cabled cured anything, then was the problem due to connector corrosion? Speculation using shotgunning often makes that conclusion. But if 'breaking and making' that connection solved anything, then a defect still exists. Defect still exists even when problem 'appears' to be solved. We learned this because nothing was fixed until the 'cure' was explained by 'whys'. Strange is why responsible manufacturers supply comprehensive diagnostics. Why does a system/component work here and not there? Nobody has a clue, in part, because facts provided from diagnostics, et al were not provided. A conclusion without supporting facts is nothing more than wild speculation perverted into a proclaimed 'declaration of truth'. For example, does that 'strangeness' come from a power supply system defect? We know 'little to nothing' until a conclusion is based in a 'defintively something'. Facts and numbers are essential to fixing things; solving it the first time; understanding the problem now and to avoid future problems, AND to even make your posts here useful to others. An example of one who often violates these basic principles and who posts without even basic electrical knowleldge are posts from John Doe. He even foolishly believes danger exists when probing inside a computer; which is why his ultimate conclusion is to never remove a computer's cover. Generally, repair things to learn. Not only to learn how that component works. But to also appreciate how reality works. Military academies graduate everyone with engineering training. Those graduates are therefore provided training on how to solve all problems. For example, so many Americans believed Saddam had WMDs because 'speculation resulting in assumed conclusions' used the same techniques found in shotgunning. Know something by denying or ignoring the underlying facts? In that WMD speculation, Zippe, the company that makes same for America, showed the White House why those aluminum tubes could never be used for manufacturing WMDs. Those were facts with numbers. Why did they go right back and proclaim that Saddam had WMDs? Shotgunning. Conversion of wild speculation (even ignore the numbers) into 'known facts'. Curious (not strange) are symptoms of your hardware in a friend's system. Strange is only because we have no useful facts. Again, why we learn using facts such as manufacturer diagnostics and other 'numbers and facts'. Notice how many just know how to fix computers and yet never even learned the power of diagnostics or how things work? To make a decision without 'numbers and facts' is to declare wild speculation as fact. To solve problems using Windows as a diagnostic tool may also complicate a problem. It may appear to fix something - which is different from actually fixing something. Again, even a defective power supply can still boot and run a computer. Does that mean the power supply really is not defective? A useful conclusion requires facts based in 'definitively'. Shotgunning does not teach; may only result in failures later (ie inside that power supply). Not only does it work; but also why? Why is essential to a solution - the 'definitive something' answer. Removing a CD-Rom fixed it? Well, which computer was controlling the bus? Computer inside the CD-Rom or computer inside a disk drive? If using facts to draw conclusions, then answers to this question would be part of your symptoms. What was tested by swapping? Swapping (testing), performed based upon fundamental knowledge (the hypothesis), is different from swapping based only on wild speculation (shotgunning). Meanwhile, your symptoms were classic of what would be discovered or eliminated by using the two minute procedure in "When your computer dies without warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp at: http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh A defective power supply system (that can still boot a computer) can also create 'strange' problems. Do you know your or your friend's power supply system is completely functional? To answer that question requires numbers. I assume you are satisfied by having the disk system working without knowing why. I assume you will not further investigage to actually learn what had failed or why failure happens. That is what most people do. Same reason why, for example, only a minority could suspect that 'Saddam has WMDs' was also based in myths and wild speculation. Did you know each disk drive and CD-Rom contains a computer system? Did you know incompatibilities may exist between their computers? Those using shotgunning would never learn. Those asking damning questions - not just trying to shotgun or fix something - would learn about some disk drives and CD-Roms that can cause the other peripheral to fail. This post simply demonstrates why people such as John Doe will often know without first learning facts. BTW, John Doe is posting here only because he was previously exposed as an expert who only knows from shotgunning; does not even have basic electrical knowledge. Does he post using technical facts, or for emotional revenge? Well, only the naive would claim motherboard BIOS is sufficient to measure voltages. BIOS measurement hardware is often unreliable until calibrated such as by using a 3.5 digit multimeter. Some ideas to better understood what you experienced. What were the manufacturers for each disk drive or CD-Rom? How do symptoms change when changing how the system accesses various combinations of IDE devices? And, of course, how do those changes affect conclusions from the hardware diagnostic? Some questions to ask and answer in the future. Also curious would be whether you move on to understand the problem OR are satisfied by just having the disk system working. Many self proclaimed computer experts never bother to ask damning questions which is why their solutions are routinely found in shotgunning. At minimum, I would still execute comprehensive hardware diagnostics to learn what they report; useful knowledge gained from the experience. Good to hear you also have a working solution. On Dec 18, 10:50 am, "OhioGuy" wrote: I don't really consider this "shotgunning". That would be just randomly removing a part and testing it. I was having a hard drive related message come up on bootup, and I happened to have a couple of spare hard drives laying around in known working condition. Therefore, it was a simple thing to replace the hard drive to see if replacing it might fix the issue. It really does appear to be some sort of issue caused by having the old CD-ROM drive on the same data cable. Reseating the data cables didn't catch that, but running the system without the data cable hooked to the CD-ROM drive did. The really strange thing is that the mobile rack drive works fine now, and it works fine when taken out and hooked up to my PC in the basement. However, it could not be accessed on my friend's computer. He has another mobile rack like mine, and hasn't had any problems with it. His system would boot up ok with this drive in it, but could not see it. Strange. |
#7
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PC Behaving badly
On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 22:04:37 -0800 (PST), w_tom
wrote: 'Strange' suggests nothing learned by swapping parts. For example, if reseating a data cabled cured anything, then was the problem due to connector corrosion? Speculation using shotgunning often makes that conclusion. But if 'breaking and making' that connection solved anything, then a defect still exists. Defect still exists even when problem 'appears' to be solved. We learned this because nothing was Who gives a crap. If the obnject is to make the thing work again, then the object has been achieved. |
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