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#11
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New CPU's from Intel?
* ***** charles:
I was interested in buying an Itanium once from HP. The beuracracy one must go through just to get to the person who has the ability to sell you one is horrendous. I didn't think the pricing was too out of line with Power and Sparc its' major competitors since they were all in the same ballpark. I finally lost interest. Until anyone can just go to a website and order one with several clicks of a mouse, the Itanium will stay a small very small player. Well, most customers probably don't order a Superdome with 64 processors just over the website with several clicks of a mouse. That's not how enterprise computing works. HP thinks the product needs a lot of support. They are right. Not for people like me who would just buy the hardware and install Linux on it and run the apps I want. You probably don't spend the money for a big rx or Superdome, so you're certainly not a target customer. And even for people like you there were and still are Itanium computers that would fit your need. rx2600s are dirt cheap as are HP RENEW zx2000 and zx6000 workstations, so what? HP, IBM and SUN all want to sell you "solutions" for high margin prices. That's why the high end allows for that. They don't really believe in the commodity markets. They definitely do. HP for example is one of the biggest vendor for x86 servers from single processor workgroup models to highend opteron servers. Sun also learned that they can't ignore comodity hardware and now is making a great part of their renevue from it. There used to be several companies a while back that advertised in Pricewatch 1U rack mount servers for $399. They were fully functional with Celerons or XP cpu's with 256M ram and small IDE hd's. All had Linux on them. Some how they didn't last, either the sellers couldn't make enough money or they couldn't get the parts at a reasonable enough cost. These vendors died simply because they were nobody. Companies buying servers usually want known vendor with known good support behind it. Something that these el-cheapo guys can't provide... IBM, HP and SUN sell x86 because they have too. They sell it because they make the most money from it. The customer would just go to another supplier if the big companies didn't have the products the customer wants/ed to buy. The big companies would much rather you buy a Power/IA64/Sparc system since it means more profit for them in the long run. Not really. Proprietary architectures are very expensive to produce due to the relative low production numbers. So they pay a lot for making these machines but on the other side have to compete price-wise with much cheaper comodity hardware which gets even faster and faster almost every month. There's a reason why intel and HP started Itanium because it was meant to replace all the other ultra-expensive proprietary architectures like SPARC, PA-RISC, POWER, MIPS etc. That Itanium isn't really cheaper and came much too late is a different story, though. The proprietary architectures are struggling. PA-RISC already has a definite termination point, and Itanium is almost high-end only (Superdome class or systems with more than 16 cpus), in the lower categries it's already dead. SGI which relied on their proprietary MIPS and then also on Itanium is already on the ground. There still are areas (especially the high end) where traditional RISC systems have advantages over comodity hardware, but these areas are constantly getting smaller. You can be sure that as soon as comodity hardware is ready for the high end the remaining vendors of traditional RISC systems gladly will terminate their prorpietary systems that cost them lot of money if they can offer the same solutions with comodity parts. Even Dell just gave in to selling AMD server systems and Dell doesn't have a major chip line to protect. Dell is probably the worst possible example because they have no real own research and development. They are just buying parts or have them produced for them by someone else. Benjamin |
#12
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New CPU's from Intel?
***** charles wrote:
I have heard that it does take a smart programmer to generate good code for the Itanium. There have been quite a few articles lately on how to modify the GCC so that it generates more efficient code for the IA64. Most programmers it seems who write code for the IA64 use the Intel C compiler. Seems to be the only compiler that does any good on Itanium. But now Intel is putting more emphasis on Linux on Itanium, so it looks like it's going to have to help the GCC people get working properly on Itanium. So much open-source that they might decide would not be licensable without gcc. I was interested in buying an Itanium once from HP. The beuracracy one must go through just to get to the person who has the ability to sell you one is horrendous. I didn't think the pricing was too out of line with Power and Sparc its' major competitors since they were all in the same ballpark. I finally lost interest. Until anyone can just go to a website and order one with several clicks of a mouse, the Itanium will stay a small very small player. HP thinks the product needs a lot of support. You would've probably been a good Itanium workstation buyer. Unfortunately, there weren't enough people like you buying these things, so even HP got rid of their Itanium workstations. There used to be several companies a while back that advertised in Pricewatch 1U rack mount servers for $399. They were fully functional with Celerons or XP cpu's with 256M ram and small IDE hd's. All had Linux on them. Some how they didn't last, either the sellers couldn't make enough money or they couldn't get the parts at a reasonable enough cost. Companies want support when they buy servers. Smaller mail-order companies can't offer that kind of support. long run. Even Dell just gave in to selling AMD server systems and Dell doesn't have a major chip line to protect. Except in the case of Dell, the AMD systems would *be* their big-iron, high-margin product. Yousuf Khan |
#13
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New CPU's from Intel?
"Benjamin Gawert" wrote in message
... * ***** charles: I was interested in buying an Itanium once from HP. The beuracracy one must go through just to get to the person who has the ability to sell you one is horrendous. I didn't think the pricing was too out of line with Power and Sparc its' major competitors since they were all in the same ballpark. I finally lost interest. Until anyone can just go to a website and order one with several clicks of a mouse, the Itanium will stay a small very small player. Well, most customers probably don't order a Superdome with 64 processors just over the website with several clicks of a mouse. That's not how enterprise computing works. HP thinks the product needs a lot of support. They are right. Not for people like me who would just buy the hardware and install Linux on it and run the apps I want. You probably don't spend the money for a big rx or Superdome, so you're certainly not a target customer. And even for people like you there were and still are Itanium computers that would fit your need. rx2600s are dirt cheap as are HP RENEW zx2000 and zx6000 workstations, so what? HP, IBM and SUN all want to sell you "solutions" for high margin prices. That's why the high end allows for that. They don't really believe in the commodity markets. They definitely do. HP for example is one of the biggest vendor for x86 servers from single processor workgroup models to highend opteron servers. Sun also learned that they can't ignore comodity hardware and now is making a great part of their renevue from it. Cheapest server HP advertises $499. plus shipping and tax It has: minitower case with ps Celeron 2.5GHz 512M ram 80G SATA drive 48X cdrom reader everything else on board Pricewatch equivalent: $248.95 plus shipping prebuilt and tested The Pricewatch version has an Intel motherboard and the same time on the warrantee. Now, you and I know that it is a lot like comparing apples and oranges BUT hp buys quantity thousands and can get the parts a lot cheaper than you and me. Commodity pricing is where margins are 2, 3, 4 percent over ones' cost not 100 or 200 percent markups. Do you still propose that HP is in the commodity market? Just because it sells x86 servers? Same goes for Dell, IBM, Sun, Gateway etc.... later...... There used to be several companies a while back that advertised in Pricewatch 1U rack mount servers for $399. They were fully functional with Celerons or XP cpu's with 256M ram and small IDE hd's. All had Linux on them. Some how they didn't last, either the sellers couldn't make enough money or they couldn't get the parts at a reasonable enough cost. These vendors died simply because they were nobody. Companies buying servers usually want known vendor with known good support behind it. Something that these el-cheapo guys can't provide... IBM, HP and SUN sell x86 because they have too. They sell it because they make the most money from it. The customer would just go to another supplier if the big companies didn't have the products the customer wants/ed to buy. The big companies would much rather you buy a Power/IA64/Sparc system since it means more profit for them in the long run. Not really. Proprietary architectures are very expensive to produce due to the relative low production numbers. So they pay a lot for making these machines but on the other side have to compete price-wise with much cheaper comodity hardware which gets even faster and faster almost every month. There's a reason why intel and HP started Itanium because it was meant to replace all the other ultra-expensive proprietary architectures like SPARC, PA-RISC, POWER, MIPS etc. That Itanium isn't really cheaper and came much too late is a different story, though. The proprietary architectures are struggling. PA-RISC already has a definite termination point, and Itanium is almost high-end only (Superdome class or systems with more than 16 cpus), in the lower categries it's already dead. SGI which relied on their proprietary MIPS and then also on Itanium is already on the ground. There still are areas (especially the high end) where traditional RISC systems have advantages over comodity hardware, but these areas are constantly getting smaller. You can be sure that as soon as comodity hardware is ready for the high end the remaining vendors of traditional RISC systems gladly will terminate their prorpietary systems that cost them lot of money if they can offer the same solutions with comodity parts. Even Dell just gave in to selling AMD server systems and Dell doesn't have a major chip line to protect. Dell is probably the worst possible example because they have no real own research and development. They are just buying parts or have them produced for them by someone else. Benjamin |
#14
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New CPU's from Intel?
* ***** charles:
Cheapest server HP advertises $499. plus shipping and tax It has: minitower case with ps Celeron 2.5GHz 512M ram 80G SATA drive 48X cdrom reader everything else on board Pricewatch equivalent: $248.95 plus shipping prebuilt and tested right, just without the availability of onsite support (not even NBD, and just forget about anything with 8hrs or 4hrs reaction time), not tested or certified for compatibility of important applications, no stable hardware (means that most hardware used like system board etc doesn't change in a certain series) but continuously changing parts from the cheapest source available, and certainly even not EMC tested (and forget about stable BIOSes and drivers that are thoroughly tested like it's done by HP and the other big players). And certainly pricewatch doesn't use high quality PSUs like HP does (they use Delta PSUs which are very efficient), the pricewatch system certainly has no form of hardware monitoring or management functions, and I doubt that pricewatch uses a case of the same quality and serviceability like HP does. Just comparing some Ghz, Gbyte and the price tag might work for joe homeuser but definitely not for professional IT... The Pricewatch version has an Intel motherboard and the same time on the warrantee. Now, you and I know that it is a lot like comparing apples and oranges BUT hp buys quantity thousands and can get the parts a lot cheaper than you and me. I wonder where you got the price for the HP server (which model btw?) from. Hopefully not from the HP site because the street price usually is _much_ lower... Here in Germany a HP ProLiant ML110 with 3GHz Pentium4 is 349EUR, the Celeron models are even cheaper... Commodity pricing is where margins are 2, 3, 4 percent over ones' cost not 100 or 200 percent markups. Do you still propose that HP is in the commodity market? Just because it sells x86 servers? Same goes for Dell, IBM, Sun, Gateway etc.... I don't know where you live but here in Germany Dell and HP are indeed comparable to noname brands price-wise. Especially HP has _very_ attractive prices (at least if you don't buy from them directly), and if you go HP RENEW (factory refurbished ex-demo systems which look like new, smell like new and have the same warranty like a new system but cost up to 40% less) you usually get unbeatable prices. BTW: your postings would be much easier to read if you would remove the parts that you are not answering to. Benjamin |
#15
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New CPU's from Intel?
"Benjamin Gawert" wrote in message
... * ***** charles: Cheapest server HP advertises $499. plus shipping and tax It has: minitower case with ps Celeron 2.5GHz 512M ram 80G SATA drive 48X cdrom reader everything else on board Pricewatch equivalent: $248.95 plus shipping prebuilt and tested right, just without the availability of onsite support (not even NBD, and just forget about anything with 8hrs or 4hrs reaction time), not tested or certified for compatibility of important applications, no stable hardware (means that most hardware used like system board etc doesn't change in a certain series) but continuously changing parts from the cheapest source available, and certainly even not EMC tested (and forget about stable BIOSes and drivers that are thoroughly tested like it's done by HP and the other big players). And certainly pricewatch doesn't use high quality PSUs like HP does (they use Delta PSUs which are very efficient), the pricewatch system certainly has no form of hardware monitoring or management functions, and I doubt that pricewatch uses a case of the same quality and serviceability like HP does. I understand all of the arguments above and like I said below comparing "apples to oranges". Just comparing some Ghz, Gbyte and the price tag might work for joe homeuser but definitely not for professional IT... The standardized Intel motherboard do take a lot of the risk out of it. The market for "harry homeowner" is infinitely larger than the very small world of professional computer workers. The Pricewatch version has an Intel motherboard and the same time on the warrantee. Now, you and I know that it is a lot like comparing apples and oranges BUT hp buys quantity thousands and can get the parts a lot cheaper than you and me. I wonder where you got the price for the HP server (which model btw?) from. Hopefully not from the HP site because the street price usually is _much_ lower... Here in Germany a HP ProLiant ML110 with 3GHz Pentium4 is 349EUR, the Celeron models are even cheaper... I just went to HP's website and looked for the cheapest server it listed. It was an HP ProLiant ML110 G3 as outlined above. I was acting as a regular person and not an industry guru/dealer. I am sure I could also "beat the price" from other sources like you can where you are. I am in the US. Commodity pricing is where margins are 2, 3, 4 percent over ones' cost not 100 or 200 percent markups. Do you still propose that HP is in the commodity market? Just because it sells x86 servers? Same goes for Dell, IBM, Sun, Gateway etc.... My conclusion still stands, they are not in the commodity business. later....... |
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