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#1
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Any new Celeron Benchmarks?
I want to upgrade my Celeron 1.7Ghz to possibly Celeron D 335 or P4 2.8B-GHz
(my mobo supports 533 FSB). The P4 is more expensive but I wonder how much faster it is then the new celerons. But I guess its too early for benchmarks? |
#2
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"Libras Renholder" wrote :
I want to upgrade my Celeron 1.7Ghz to possibly Celeron D 335 or P4 2.8B-GHz (my mobo supports 533 FSB). The P4 is more expensive but I wonder how much faster it is then the new celerons. But I guess its too early for benchmarks? http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.html?i=2093 You will get more and better changing platform to AMD. Just look at the prices and performance. Celeron wins only in useless benchmarks (Q3 640x480) and loses in every reasonable ones (wolf 1024x768). Pozdrawiam. -- RusH // http://pulse.pdi.net/~rush/qv30/ Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery. You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE. |
#3
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They are pretty tied besides I'm an intel fanboy. However I do have a
question, I've been comparing these two http://anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1956&p=18 http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=2093&p=8 but I am not sure if the P4 I mentioned below is a Northwood or Prescott so I can compare the two chips I'm considering buying. Is the P4 over the celeron worth the extra $$$ "RusH" wrote in message 22.80... "Libras Renholder" wrote : I want to upgrade my Celeron 1.7Ghz to possibly Celeron D 335 or P4 2.8B-GHz (my mobo supports 533 FSB). The P4 is more expensive but I wonder how much faster it is then the new celerons. But I guess its too early for benchmarks? http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.html?i=2093 You will get more and better changing platform to AMD. Just look at the prices and performance. Celeron wins only in useless benchmarks (Q3 640x480) and loses in every reasonable ones (wolf 1024x768). Pozdrawiam. -- RusH // http://pulse.pdi.net/~rush/qv30/ Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery. You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE. |
#4
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RusH wrote:
"Libras Renholder" wrote : I want to upgrade my Celeron 1.7Ghz to possibly Celeron D 335 or P4 2.8B-GHz (my mobo supports 533 FSB). The P4 is more expensive but I wonder how much faster it is then the new celerons. But I guess its too early for benchmarks? http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.html?i=2093 You will get more and better changing platform to AMD. Just look at the prices and performance. Celeron wins only in useless benchmarks (Q3 640x480) and loses in every reasonable ones (wolf 1024x768). Thanks for that link. The method used to estimate the performance improvement of Celeron D over Celeron--running at an unrealistically slow 2GHz--systematically underestimates the performance improvement to be expected from running at more like 2.6GHz with larger cache. The direct comparison chart shows a performance improvement of 11.7% for Business Winstone 2004; I get an estimated improvement of over 24% by pulling numbers off the next chart, where the processors are run at full speed. As to performance relative to AMD, the improvement seems to get Celeron D out of the embarassing category. Someone considering purchase of an OEM system might be tempted to consider a P4 Celeron for the right price and the right application; the likely buyer that comes to mind is a penny-pinching volume buyer for business. As always, we don't know what price Dell or HP will be paying. RM |
#5
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Robert Myers wrote :
As to performance relative to AMD, the improvement seems to get Celeron D out of the embarassing category. Yes, looks like those Celerons are now only ~200MHz behind full P4. Pozdrawiam. -- RusH // http://pulse.pdi.net/~rush/qv30/ Like ninjas, true hackers are shrouded in secrecy and mystery. You may never know -- UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE. |
#6
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#7
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On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:48:50 GMT, Robert Myers
wrote: RusH wrote: The method used to estimate the performance improvement of Celeron D over Celeron--running at an unrealistically slow 2GHz--systematically underestimates the performance improvement to be expected from running at more like 2.6GHz with larger cache. The direct comparison chart shows a performance improvement of 11.7% for Business Winstone 2004; I get an estimated improvement of over 24% by pulling numbers off the next chart, where the processors are run at full speed. Much more important that the clock speed is the bus speed. In the 2.0GHz comparison both Celeron chips were run with a 400MT/s bus speed. The idea behind this was clearly to test the differences that the cache and core make, which is interesting in it's own right, but not entirely applicable to determining what chip to purchase. Comparing the old Celeron 2.6GHz to the new Celeron 330 you are looking at the effects of a new core, doubles L1 cache, doubled L2 cache and a higher bus speed all combined together. As to performance relative to AMD, the improvement seems to get Celeron D out of the embarassing category. Someone considering purchase of an OEM system might be tempted to consider a P4 Celeron for the right price and the right application; the likely buyer that comes to mind is a penny-pinching volume buyer for business. As always, we don't know what price Dell or HP will be paying. Actually it finally makes the chip halfway reasonable for those who are limited to Intel platforms. AMD processors still offer much better bang for your buck. A new Celeron 330 in retail box will set you back $99 from Newegg.com, while the AthlonXP 2500+, offering better performance, is only $80 from the same store. However as you mention, most OEMs systems are limited to an Intel-only platform for whatever reasons (95%+ marketing), these new Celerons make some sense. HP and Dell get these chips for DIRT-CHEAP. I would hazard a guess that they pay somewhere on the order of $30-$40 for these Celeron processors, so really there is no real price advantage for going for an AMD chip. You end up with somewhat lower performance, but it's close enough that no one will notice. ------------- Tony Hill hilla underscore 20 at yahoo dot ca |
#8
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Tony Hill wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:48:50 GMT, Robert Myers wrote: The method used to estimate the performance improvement of Celeron D over Celeron--running at an unrealistically slow 2GHz--systematically underestimates the performance improvement to be expected from running at more like 2.6GHz with larger cache. The direct comparison chart shows a performance improvement of 11.7% for Business Winstone 2004; I get an estimated improvement of over 24% by pulling numbers off the next chart, where the processors are run at full speed. Much more important that the clock speed is the bus speed. In the 2.0GHz comparison both Celeron chips were run with a 400MT/s bus speed. The idea behind this was clearly to test the differences that the cache and core make, which is interesting in it's own right, but not entirely applicable to determining what chip to purchase. Comparing the old Celeron 2.6GHz to the new Celeron 330 you are looking at the effects of a new core, doubles L1 cache, doubled L2 cache and a higher bus speed all combined together. Double, double toil and trouble...mutter, grumble...details of memory operation and latency... I guess I just don't really understand the point of the 2.0GHz test. When the processor runs at the higher FSB speed, the memory latency doesn't change because it's still the same memory running at the same conditions (2 x 256MB DDR400 @ 2:3:3:6). With fixed memory latency, processor frequency, memory bandwidth requirements, and cache size requirements all scale together. A one third reduction in processor frequency is like, all other things being equal, a one third reduction in required cache size and memory bandwidth for equal performance. Things don't scale quite that neatly, but such a simple-minded theory goes a long way toward explaining 11.7% gain vs. 24% gain for doubling the cache size, with the processor frequency being reduced by one third for the lower of the two estimates. There's little point in having extra cache if you don't have the bandwidth to get the data in...but there's very little point in having the extra bandwidth if there's nowhere to put the data. The more meaningful comparison is the 2.66GHz Celeron D against the 2.6GHz Celeron. The discrepancy between 2.66GHz and 2.6GHz can be fixed with a little systems engineer's body english. What this little diversion highlights is that, as Intel pushed the clock on Celeron from 1.7GHz, the cache situation, not very good to begin with, got more and more dire, and the Celeron D is an inevitable course correction. snip However as you mention, most OEMs systems are limited to an Intel-only platform for whatever reasons (95%+ marketing), these new Celerons make some sense. HP and Dell get these chips for DIRT-CHEAP. I would hazard a guess that they pay somewhere on the order of $30-$40 for these Celeron processors, so really there is no real price advantage for going for an AMD chip. You end up with somewhat lower performance, but it's close enough that no one will notice. I mentioned the actual economic realities because one could come away from a discussion like this wondering how it is that Intel ever sells processors. Some buyers, it is true, are gullible shoppers at a place like CompUSA, but not all of them are by any means. Intel hardware commands a modest brand premium, but not as much for buyers of OEM hardware as for home-builders. RM |
#9
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On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:57:11 GMT, Robert Myers
wrote: Tony Hill wrote: On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:48:50 GMT, Robert Myers wrote: The method used to estimate the performance improvement of Celeron D over Celeron--running at an unrealistically slow 2GHz--systematically underestimates the performance improvement to be expected from running at more like 2.6GHz with larger cache. The direct comparison chart shows a performance improvement of 11.7% for Business Winstone 2004; I get an estimated improvement of over 24% by pulling numbers off the next chart, where the processors are run at full speed. Much more important that the clock speed is the bus speed. In the 2.0GHz comparison both Celeron chips were run with a 400MT/s bus speed. The idea behind this was clearly to test the differences that the cache and core make, which is interesting in it's own right, but not entirely applicable to determining what chip to purchase. Comparing the old Celeron 2.6GHz to the new Celeron 330 you are looking at the effects of a new core, doubles L1 cache, doubled L2 cache and a higher bus speed all combined together. Double, double toil and trouble...mutter, grumble...details of memory operation and latency... I guess I just don't really understand the point of the 2.0GHz test. It's admittedly not the most useful test in the real world. I believe the main idea was to contrast this to the Northwood vs. Prescott P4 comparisons, where the latter was usually somewhat slower given identical clock speed and bus speed. With these Celerons that trend is noticeably reversed, the Prescott-esk Celeron D is almost always faster (often by a margin of over 10%) than the Northwood derived Celeron of old. When the processor runs at the higher FSB speed, the memory latency doesn't change because it's still the same memory running at the same conditions (2 x 256MB DDR400 @ 2:3:3:6). To a rough approximation, yes. With fixed memory latency, processor frequency, memory bandwidth requirements, and cache size requirements all scale together. A one third reduction in processor frequency is like, all other things being equal, a one third reduction in required cache size and memory bandwidth for equal performance. Things don't scale quite that neatly, but such a simple-minded theory goes a long way toward explaining 11.7% gain vs. 24% gain for doubling the cache size, with the processor frequency being reduced by one third for the lower of the two estimates. Err, I think that might be a bit of an oversimplification of things here! There's little point in having extra cache if you don't have the bandwidth to get the data in...but there's very little point in having the extra bandwidth if there's nowhere to put the data. The more meaningful comparison is the 2.66GHz Celeron D against the 2.6GHz Celeron. The discrepancy between 2.66GHz and 2.6GHz can be fixed with a little systems engineer's body english. What's perhaps most applicable would be a dollar for dollar comparisons, ie probably a Celeron D at 2.53GHz vs. a Celeron at 2.6 or 2.7GHz for the time being. After all, the real reason for looking at the Celeron in the first place is low cost. What this little diversion highlights is that, as Intel pushed the clock on Celeron from 1.7GHz, the cache situation, not very good to begin with, got more and more dire, and the Celeron D is an inevitable course correction. Combine that with somewhat restricted bandwidth and the whole memory subsystem of the old Northwood-style Celeron pretty much blew. The increased bus speed and doubled cache are rather obvious solutions and, not surprisingly, they result in a fairly noticeable increase in performance. What I found funny was that some people were surprised by this fact! However as you mention, most OEMs systems are limited to an Intel-only platform for whatever reasons (95%+ marketing), these new Celerons make some sense. HP and Dell get these chips for DIRT-CHEAP. I would hazard a guess that they pay somewhere on the order of $30-$40 for these Celeron processors, so really there is no real price advantage for going for an AMD chip. You end up with somewhat lower performance, but it's close enough that no one will notice. I mentioned the actual economic realities because one could come away from a discussion like this wondering how it is that Intel ever sells processors. Some buyers, it is true, are gullible shoppers at a place like CompUSA, but not all of them are by any means. Intel hardware commands a modest brand premium, but not as much for buyers of OEM hardware as for home-builders. Definitely not. I've had the chance to get some exposure to the inner workings of computer building and whatnot at large OEMs recently, and basically the hardware itself seems to be a pretty much non-issue cost-wise (the one exception to this rule seems to be motherboards... perhaps not by coincidence since there is TONS of competition in the retail market pushing prices down). The cost all seems to come from support and all the extras like management, marketing and logistics. As a interesting side note, I now finally understand Dell's thinking behind their "white box" systems. I'm sure that they are able to churn out the hardware for next to nothing as long as they have zero support costs associated with it. Offload the support to some other company (the retailer in this case) and Dell's per-unit cost are tiny. I'm still not sure that the idea will actually translate into a commercially viable product, but at least I understand where they're coming from now. ------------- Tony Hill hilla underscore 20 at yahoo dot ca |
#10
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