Bit of a historical question: MS-DOS

On 6/1/2012 5:55 PM PT, glee typed:

That's what I remember too, but at my age, I don't trust my memory g

yes, well with MS-DOS, you need less memory anyway... lol

But is that free conventional memory? I guess it was too big to fit to
run it. [grin] I am pretty sure C:\DOS was it. I hated v4! Stupid
conventional memory!
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On 02/06/2012 7:41 AM, glee wrote:
"Yousuf Khan" wrote in message
...
Yeah, I know it was always available in the path, but was there a
default directory created to hold these commands? For some reason I'm
thinking that there may have been a C:\SYS or SYSTEM folder or
something? Or were they all placed into C:\ the root directory?

Yousuf Khan

As I already posted in my reply about 14 hours ago, it was C:\DOS for
the Microsoft versions of DOS.

Yeah, I know you posted that, but I didn't get a chance to respond to it
since it was getting late for me. However, I also wanted some additional
verification about it. Funny, the C:\DOS directory seems so logically
simple, but I can't remember that at all. Then I would assume, the IBM
version had a C:\PCDOS directory?

Yousuf Khan

On 02/06/2012 1:22 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
Yousuf Khan wrote:

I've been trying to remember this, and I honestly can't remember it
anymore. In MS-DOS, where were the standard external commands located?
The only thing I remember about MS-DOS was that the command.com was
located in the root directory (along with autoexec.bat, config.sys, and
the hidden files msdos.sys& io.sys). Slightly different names for the
PC-DOS version, such as pcdos.sys& ibmio.sys, but otherwise identical.
The standard external commands were those like chkdsk or xcopy, which
weren't built into the command.com. Was there an MSDOS folder or
something which contained these commands?

Yousuf Khan

See replies to the disconnected MULTI-posted copy of your same message
over in the alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt newsgroup.

What does hardware, especially chips, have to do with your question?

That group used to be quite generalized at one time.

Don't shotgun to unrelated newsgroups which results in posting off-topic
within them. With all those cross-posted newsgroups, you didn't even
bother to include the *.msdos newsgroups in your query.

Well, that's simple, I didn't even know that there were still msdos
newsgroups existed.

Yousuf Khan

On 6/1/2012 11:11 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 01/06/2012 4:57 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:
From: "Yousuf

I've been trying to remember this, and I honestly can't remember it
anymore. In MS-DOS,
where were the standard external commands located? The only thing I
remember about
MS-DOS was that the command.com was located in the root directory
(along with
autoexec.bat, config.sys, and the hidden files msdos.sys& io.sys).
Slightly different
names for the PC-DOS version, such as pcdos.sys& ibmio.sys, but
otherwise identical.
The standard external commands were those like chkdsk or xcopy, which
weren't built into
the command.com. Was there an MSDOS folder or something which
contained these commands?

Yousuf Khan

It depended upon the DOS falvour; PC/MS/DR.

However it was always located in the PATH (%PATH%).

Yeah, I know it was always available in the path, but was there a
default directory created to hold these commands? For some reason I'm
thinking that there may have been a C:\SYS or SYSTEM folder or
something? Or were they all placed into C:\ the root directory?

Yousuf Khan

C:\DOS

https://scs.senecac.on.ca/~albert.pa...00/doscmd.html

On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 06:29:10 -0400, "Stewart" wrote:


"glee" wrote in message
...
"Ken Blake" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Jun 2012 17:26:07 -0400, "glee"

wrote:

"Yousuf Khan" wrote in message
...
I've been trying to remember this, and I honestly can't remember
it
anymore. In MS-DOS, where were the standard external commands
located?
The only thing I remember about MS-DOS was that the command.com
was
located in the root directory (along with autoexec.bat,
config.sys,
and the hidden files msdos.sys & io.sys). Slightly different
names for
the PC-DOS version, such as pcdos.sys & ibmio.sys, but otherwise
identical. The standard external commands were those like chkdsk
or
xcopy, which weren't built into the command.com. Was there an
MSDOS
folder or something which contained these commands?

Yousuf Khan

As I recall, the default location for MS-DOS (at least v. 5 and
6.x) was
at C:\DOS


That's what I remember too, but at my age, I don't trust my memory
g

yes, well with MS-DOS, you need less memory anyway... lol

Why would anyone ever need more thn 640k?

When he said that, I already had 704K in my 5150.

TomT wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

To TomT:
Whenever you change the Newsgroups list, add a comment about making that
change. It's considered netiquette to inform of changing this header.
Lack of notification is typical of troll-like behavior or could be a
mistake in use of your newsreader. If you change the Newsgroups list,
add a note saying which newsgroups you chose to omit in your reply at
the top of your reply post.

OK, you're going to have to explain what "changes the newsgroup list"
means. This is the first time I've heard of this.

TomT

What newsgroups did the OP (original poster) have in his post? His
Newsgroups header had:

microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support
alt.windows7.general
alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips

What newsgroups were in your reply to the OP? Your Newsgroups header
had:

alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt

The OP cross-posted to 4 newsgroups some of which may not be considered
germane to his topic. Replies to the OP (and to anyone that replied and
didn't modify the Newsgroups header) would have their posts go to the
same original list of newsgroups. However, anyone that replies to your
post might not notice you changed the newsgroups list (as I did) so
their replies only go into the newsgroups you picked which differs from
those specified by the OP.

If you reply and use the same Newsgroups list then you don't need to
notify anyone. Reusing the same set of newsgroups is expected. If you
reply and *change* the Newsgroups list, like you decide the topic or
your reply don't belong to all those newsgroups, then you should mention
that you are changing the newsgroups list. An example would be a note
at the top of your reply (so responders to your post see your note right
away instead of missing it at the end), like:

Note: I omitted the following newsgroups from my reply:
microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support
alt.windows7.general
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips

Or:

NOTE: I changed the Newsgroups header. Of the original newsgroups:
microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support
alt.windows7.general
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips
I only replied to:
alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt

Another example would be:

WARN: The Newsgroups header was changed in my reply. I replied to
only ONE of the original newsgroups.
Original list: microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support
alt.windows7.general
alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips
Modified list: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt

You can optional provide the reason why you believe the set of
newsgroups should be changed for your [sub]thread. Some users think
they know better in which newsgroup a topic should be discussed so they
change the Newsgroups header to what they think is more appropriate but
obviously without permission from the OP. Rather than suggest to the OP
that there are more appropriate newsgroups for a discussion, they
attempt to shove the discussion somewhere else. This is rude behavior
that even some MVPs practice here (they can't do this in forums unless
they happen to be an admin or moderator there); however, they almost
always announce the change in the Newsgroups header when including or
moving the discussion to a different newsgroup.

All you're doing is giving a heads up to potential respondents that you
changed the Newsgroups list in your reply. Some other posters that
reply to you might agree with your reason (if you give one). Others may
not agree and want to respond to the original list of newsgroups or even
have their own reason to choose a different set of newsgroups. To be
polite, announce when you change the Newsgroups header. Trolls don't
notify because often they [attempt to] redirect replies to *.test,
scorched-earth, kooks, or to some other garbage newsgroups. They may
expect heated replies to their incendiary post so they [try to] redirect
them elsewhere often to flame other newsgroups.

I've even see posters battle amongst themselves as to which newsgroup(s)
should be used for a discussion. One will pick a different set than the
original list, someone that replies to them will change the list again
either back to the original list or a different list, someone replies to
them with another different list of newsgroups, and the discussion ends
up wandering all over the place. These users battling with each other
are hoping a heated respondent happens to miss the newsgroup redirection
so they obviously never announce they changed the Newsgroups list.

If you change the Newsgroups list, just say so to warn others that may
reply to your post. Newsreaders don't look at the parent post of the
post to which you reply to see if the Newsgroups header has changed.
Twould be nice as a warning feature so a respondent is aware of the
change. Right now, a respondent has to remember to manually check the
Newsgroups header of the grandparent post to check it against the
Newsgroups header of the parent post to see if there was a change - and
that is often forgotten or not even considered. Trolls change the
Newsgroups header for nasty reasons. Polite folk announce the change.

I haven't used Forte Agent in a very long time. I don't recall that it
has an option to reply to only 1 newsgroup when several are listed in
the Newsgroups header - but then how would it know which one(s) to
include in a repy? So I figure that you changed the Newsgroups list
when you replied but you didn't mention it.

Yousuf Khan wrote:

PATH: ...!news.bnb-lp.com!not-for-mail

That's your NNTP server. It's the injection node in the PATH header.
They hide behind a private domain registration (i.e., their registrar
lists themself as the contact for that domain instead of the real
registrant of that domain). There is usually a bad reason why a
registrant chooses to hide, or the reason is superfluous (like trying to
avoid spam for domain renewals when obviously the e-mail address given
by the registrant to the registrar could be a special-use account that
filters out all e-mails except those that come from their registrar).
The host name news.bnb-lp.com equates to IP address 67.225.189.77 which
is allocated to Liquid Web (liquidweb.com). Since Liquid Web is a
webhosting company, someone has an account there on which they are
running an NNTP server. From the bnb-lp.com web site, Ball and Ball is
yet another 3rd tier webhoster (they resell their provider's service)
along with providing Usenet access.

It's possible they don't carry some newsgroups that other NNTP servers
carry. Based on their primitive web site and that they are NOT a Usenet
backbone provider (e.g., Highwinds), and because it looks like they only
carry text-only newsgroups (which is a bit pricey at $30/yr), it's quite
possible they don't carry some newsgroups. *.msdos may be some of those
they don't carry. Some NNTP servers don't carry as many newsgroups as
others (and some carry lots of garbage newsgroups).

Have your newsreader refresh its list of newsgroups; i.e., have it
re-read the list of groups from the NNTP server. Then search on
"msdos". I'm using Albasani as my NNTP provider and they show 16 groups
with *.msdos for a name. Eternal-September has the same newsgroups.
There are few in Albasani that aren't on Eternal-September and visa
versa but most are duplicated on all NNTP servers.

GreyCloud wrote:

On 6/1/2012 2:52 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
I've been trying to remember this, and I honestly can't remember it
anymore. In MS-DOS, where were the standard external commands located?
The only thing I remember about MS-DOS was that the command.com was
located in the root directory (along with autoexec.bat, config.sys, and
the hidden files msdos.sys & io.sys). Slightly different names for the
PC-DOS version, such as pcdos.sys & ibmio.sys, but otherwise identical.
The standard external commands were those like chkdsk or xcopy, which
weren't built into the command.com. Was there an MSDOS folder or
something which contained these commands?

Yousuf Khan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IO.SYS

That doesn't have any of the internal or external commands. While most
MS-DOS installs use the default command interpreter (command.com), it is
possible to specify a different program (i.e., you get a different
shell). The 'shell' or 'comspec' parameters in config.sys specified
which command interpreter to load; if omitted, the kernel used the
default one (command.com). That specified the primary shell. The
secondary shell was specified using the COMSPEC environment variable
(e.g., 4DOS.COM).

The internal commands are those provided by the command interpreter
(command.com, 4dos.com, etc), not by io.sys. The external commands were
actually just programs bundled with the OS. They also were not buried
somewhere inside of io.sys.

If you read that Wiki article, you'll see that io.sys has nothing to do
with what internal and external commands are available or from where
they are retrieved.

"Yousuf Khan" wrote in message
...
On 02/06/2012 7:41 AM, glee wrote:
"Yousuf Khan" wrote in message
...
Yeah, I know it was always available in the path, but was there a
default directory created to hold these commands? For some reason
I'm
thinking that there may have been a C:\SYS or SYSTEM folder or
something? Or were they all placed into C:\ the root directory?

Yousuf Khan

As I already posted in my reply about 14 hours ago, it was C:\DOS for
the Microsoft versions of DOS.

Yeah, I know you posted that, but I didn't get a chance to respond to
it since it was getting late for me. However, I also wanted some
additional verification about it. Funny, the C:\DOS directory seems so
logically simple, but I can't remember that at all. Then I would
assume, the IBM version had a C:\PCDOS directory?

PCDOS 7 (and probably the earlier versions) used C:\DOS
--
Glen Ventura
MS MVP Oct. 2002 - Sept. 2009
CompTIA A+

David H. Lipman wrote:

They couldn't all be in the root as there was a limit of 64 files in
the root.

Depends on the storage media which was never mentioned. For example, a
360KB 5.25" floppy has 7 sectors allocated to the FAT, sectors are 512
bytes in size, and each entry (file or directory) consumes 32 bytes in
the FAT, so that floppy can hold 112 entries:

7 sectors * 512 bytes/sector / 32 bytes/entry = 112 entries

Summary of maximum entry count for MS/PC-DOS (root folder only):
8" 250 KB floppy: 68
8" 500 KB floppy: 68
8" 1.2 MB floppy: 192
5.25" 180 KB floppy: 64
5.25" 360 KB floppy: 112
5.25" 1.2 MB floppy: 224
3.5" 720 KB floppy: 112
3.5" 1.44 MB floppy: 224
3.5" 2.88 MB floppy: 240
3.5" 1.68 MB DMF floppy: 16 (*)
Hard disks FAT12/16/32: 512

(*) Microsoft apps were often distributed using these hence the need to
invent CAB files to deliver a larger number of files.

Not all media formats are listed above. Many more are listed at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk but I wasn't going to waste
time to check what were they max entry count in the root folder. For an
alternate listing of "Root dir entries" on media size, read
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/75131.

If long filenames are supported then the max count goes down due to use
of more bytes per entry in the FAT to store the alternate long name.

MS-DOS 2.0 introduced directories that could hold a lot more files and
[sub]directories: 4068 for FAT12, 64K for FAT16, 268,173,300 for FAT32
(using the default cluster sizes). That didn't alleviate the maximum
entry count in the root folder.

Are we having fun yet roaming down reminiscence lane?