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#161
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new system bootup woes
"Paul" wrote in message ... Adam wrote: Well, the new mobo has arrived... http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...H_990FX_R2.pdf The CMOS battery measures +3V (although not when installed in mobo). I had to remove and place on Antec case to measure +3V. Should I measure the green/purple of the 24-pin EATXPWR before or after CPU/RAM installation (on cardboard of course)? You can "skip lots of checks" if you want. I certainly don't take baby steps with every build I do. Some of my baby step runs, are out of curiosity. That's why I've tested the "no components in motherboard, yes, it will turn on the PSU" test case. Just to prove that indeed, there is no dependence on installed components. But I don't insist on doing that test for every motherboard I buy. If you're going to do that test, I recommend adding a disk drive or two, to the PSU, to add some additional loading. ******* For my last build, I put motherboard, CPU, heatsink/fan, RAM, and video card into system, connected keyboard and mouse, plugged in the two power cables, and did the whole thing in one test (look for BIOS screen). Being prepared to back out and pull stuff out of the motherboard if necessary. If testing a video card on cardboard, you have to be particularly careful to not pull it out of the slot. The heel clip on the card helps a bit, but still you have to be careful. You stress relieve the cable, so it's not tugging on the card. Cardboard testing on the kitchen table is not recommended if there are kids around... Because somebody is likely to bump the video card and cause something to fall over. If you test without a video card, the setup is more stable mechanically, but then it'll beep at you. Getting some level of beeping, is a good positive sign, because it takes BIOS code execution, to make it beep. Systems with build-in video offer the advantage of supporting "safe cardboard testing", but your gamer level motherboard won't have build-in video. Boards with lots of PCI Express lanes, they don't generally give you a chipset video as well. There are clearly defined "market segments" that prevent that sort of overlap. My newest system is like that, lots of PCI Express lanes, and no motherboard video. So I have to install a card to see the screen. Paul Uh-oh, when removing the heatsink, the CPU was pulled right out of the socket with it. That thermal tape is strong. What to do? |
#162
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new system bootup woes
Adam wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message ... Adam wrote: Well, the new mobo has arrived... http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...H_990FX_R2.pdf The CMOS battery measures +3V (although not when installed in mobo). I had to remove and place on Antec case to measure +3V. Should I measure the green/purple of the 24-pin EATXPWR before or after CPU/RAM installation (on cardboard of course)? You can "skip lots of checks" if you want. I certainly don't take baby steps with every build I do. Some of my baby step runs, are out of curiosity. That's why I've tested the "no components in motherboard, yes, it will turn on the PSU" test case. Just to prove that indeed, there is no dependence on installed components. But I don't insist on doing that test for every motherboard I buy. If you're going to do that test, I recommend adding a disk drive or two, to the PSU, to add some additional loading. ******* For my last build, I put motherboard, CPU, heatsink/fan, RAM, and video card into system, connected keyboard and mouse, plugged in the two power cables, and did the whole thing in one test (look for BIOS screen). Being prepared to back out and pull stuff out of the motherboard if necessary. If testing a video card on cardboard, you have to be particularly careful to not pull it out of the slot. The heel clip on the card helps a bit, but still you have to be careful. You stress relieve the cable, so it's not tugging on the card. Cardboard testing on the kitchen table is not recommended if there are kids around... Because somebody is likely to bump the video card and cause something to fall over. If you test without a video card, the setup is more stable mechanically, but then it'll beep at you. Getting some level of beeping, is a good positive sign, because it takes BIOS code execution, to make it beep. Systems with build-in video offer the advantage of supporting "safe cardboard testing", but your gamer level motherboard won't have build-in video. Boards with lots of PCI Express lanes, they don't generally give you a chipset video as well. There are clearly defined "market segments" that prevent that sort of overlap. My newest system is like that, lots of PCI Express lanes, and no motherboard video. So I have to install a card to see the screen. Paul Uh-oh, when removing the heatsink, the CPU was pulled right out of the socket with it. That thermal tape is strong. What to do? It shouldn't be thermal tape. It's probably phase change material. Solid at room temperature. Viscous at higher temperature. On a running system, the recommended sequence would be: 1) Prime95 or CPUBurn for 10 minutes. 2) Shut down and immediately start work on disassembly. (While the metals are still warm). 3) Undo the clamp. Rotate the heatsink assembly slightly, while attempting to work loose the heatsink by lifting. That's to try to introduce some air into the gap, so the thing will come apart. Now, obviously, that procedure only works for a subset of all possible conditions. If the system never powered up yet, maybe the phase change material hasn't even had a chance to turn into cement :-) It's pretty difficult to apply heat safely, after the fact. So warming it now wouldn't be quite as easy. Yes, you can get things like heat guns or an electric hair dryer. But you don't really know what peak temperature that will give, or where you'll be generating that temperature. You could melt part of the plastic fan, or exceed the safe temperature of the organic CPU packaging (the packaging actually limits the CPU temperature, and not the silicon die itself). So if you're going to heat the thing up, if you think that'll help, the source of heat can't be too strong or focused to burn or melt something. I've had to remove phase change here, and it's a bitch to scrape off. It doesn't clean up quite as well with isopropyl, and may need some other chemicals. The Arctic Clean solvent has orange oil in it (something like mono-terpene limonene), which might be in the right ballpark for the job. If I found an aftermarket product with phase change on it from the factory, and the odds were good I'd need to disassemble it a couple times over lifetime, I'd probably scrape it off when new. And replace it with something a bit easier to work with. It doesn't seem to hurt the ZIF sockets too mucn, to lift out a CPU with the thing locked. That's if you do it just the one time. If you do it over and over again, eventually you'll tear the socket apart. While in the past, there have been snapped off pins, that would only happen now if you were unlucky, and lifted at a bit of an angle, instead of straight up. If you pull it out, and only a couple of pins remain holding, and you pull on an angle, it could snap one. Paul |
#163
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new system bootup woes
"Paul" wrote in message ... Adam wrote: "Paul" wrote in message ... Adam wrote: Well, the new mobo has arrived... http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...H_990FX_R2.pdf The CMOS battery measures +3V (although not when installed in mobo). I had to remove and place on Antec case to measure +3V. Should I measure the green/purple of the 24-pin EATXPWR before or after CPU/RAM installation (on cardboard of course)? You can "skip lots of checks" if you want. I certainly don't take baby steps with every build I do. Some of my baby step runs, are out of curiosity. That's why I've tested the "no components in motherboard, yes, it will turn on the PSU" test case. Just to prove that indeed, there is no dependence on installed components. But I don't insist on doing that test for every motherboard I buy. If you're going to do that test, I recommend adding a disk drive or two, to the PSU, to add some additional loading. ******* For my last build, I put motherboard, CPU, heatsink/fan, RAM, and video card into system, connected keyboard and mouse, plugged in the two power cables, and did the whole thing in one test (look for BIOS screen). Being prepared to back out and pull stuff out of the motherboard if necessary. If testing a video card on cardboard, you have to be particularly careful to not pull it out of the slot. The heel clip on the card helps a bit, but still you have to be careful. You stress relieve the cable, so it's not tugging on the card. Cardboard testing on the kitchen table is not recommended if there are kids around... Because somebody is likely to bump the video card and cause something to fall over. If you test without a video card, the setup is more stable mechanically, but then it'll beep at you. Getting some level of beeping, is a good positive sign, because it takes BIOS code execution, to make it beep. Systems with build-in video offer the advantage of supporting "safe cardboard testing", but your gamer level motherboard won't have build-in video. Boards with lots of PCI Express lanes, they don't generally give you a chipset video as well. There are clearly defined "market segments" that prevent that sort of overlap. My newest system is like that, lots of PCI Express lanes, and no motherboard video. So I have to install a card to see the screen. Paul Uh-oh, when removing the heatsink, the CPU was pulled right out of the socket with it. That thermal tape is strong. What to do? It shouldn't be thermal tape. It's probably phase change material. Solid at room temperature. Viscous at higher temperature. On a running system, the recommended sequence would be: 1) Prime95 or CPUBurn for 10 minutes. 2) Shut down and immediately start work on disassembly. (While the metals are still warm). 3) Undo the clamp. Rotate the heatsink assembly slightly, while attempting to work loose the heatsink by lifting. That's to try to introduce some air into the gap, so the thing will come apart. Now, obviously, that procedure only works for a subset of all possible conditions. If the system never powered up yet, maybe the phase change material hasn't even had a chance to turn into cement :-) It's pretty difficult to apply heat safely, after the fact. So warming it now wouldn't be quite as easy. Yes, you can get things like heat guns or an electric hair dryer. But you don't really know what peak temperature that will give, or where you'll be generating that temperature. You could melt part of the plastic fan, or exceed the safe temperature of the organic CPU packaging (the packaging actually limits the CPU temperature, and not the silicon die itself). So if you're going to heat the thing up, if you think that'll help, the source of heat can't be too strong or focused to burn or melt something. I've had to remove phase change here, and it's a bitch to scrape off. It doesn't clean up quite as well with isopropyl, and may need some other chemicals. The Arctic Clean solvent has orange oil in it (something like mono-terpene limonene), which might be in the right ballpark for the job. If I found an aftermarket product with phase change on it from the factory, and the odds were good I'd need to disassemble it a couple times over lifetime, I'd probably scrape it off when new. And replace it with something a bit easier to work with. It doesn't seem to hurt the ZIF sockets too mucn, to lift out a CPU with the thing locked. That's if you do it just the one time. If you do it over and over again, eventually you'll tear the socket apart. While in the past, there have been snapped off pins, that would only happen now if you were unlucky, and lifted at a bit of an angle, instead of straight up. If you pull it out, and only a couple of pins remain holding, and you pull on an angle, it could snap one. Paul Luckily, all the pins still look perfect (straight and intact). Whew! http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/30...at-sink-remove With a dropper, I soaked that phase change material with isopropyl rubbing alcohol 70% for some minutes. Pointed the hair dryer at the crack between the CPU and heatsink (where the phase change material is). Then, with a plastic stick, I pushed the CPU board along the heatsink, which was sitting upside down with the copper facing up. The CPU slid loose. Then, I cleaned the heatsink with lens cleaning wipes. Thinking about cleaning the CPU with lens cleaning wipes after it is installed in the new mobo to avoid bending the pins. Waiting for things to dry now. BTW, I saw how that phase change material oozed out the sides just a tiny bit. So, will look for that with the Arctic Silver 5. |
#164
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new system bootup woes
Adam wrote:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/30...at-sink-remove With a dropper, I soaked that phase change material with isopropyl rubbing alcohol 70% for some minutes. Pointed the hair dryer at the crack between the CPU and heatsink (where the phase change material is). Then, with a plastic stick, I pushed the CPU board along the heatsink, which was sitting upside down with the copper facing up. The CPU slid loose. Then, I cleaned the heatsink with lens cleaning wipes. Thinking about cleaning the CPU with lens cleaning wipes after it is installed in the new mobo to avoid bending the pins. Waiting for things to dry now. I just use the same isopropyl alcohol to clean the heatsink and cpu. No real drying time. -- Take care, Jonathan ------------------- LITTLE WORKS STUDIO http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com |
#165
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new system bootup woes
Jonathan N. Little wrote:
Adam wrote: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/30...at-sink-remove With a dropper, I soaked that phase change material with isopropyl rubbing alcohol 70% for some minutes. Pointed the hair dryer at the crack between the CPU and heatsink (where the phase change material is). Then, with a plastic stick, I pushed the CPU board along the heatsink, which was sitting upside down with the copper facing up. The CPU slid loose. Then, I cleaned the heatsink with lens cleaning wipes. Thinking about cleaning the CPU with lens cleaning wipes after it is installed in the new mobo to avoid bending the pins. Waiting for things to dry now. I just use the same isopropyl alcohol to clean the heatsink and cpu. No real drying time. This isopropyl business, isn't because it's the perfect solvent. It's because if you get the isopropyl on any electronics, it won't hurt anything. The isopropyl is actually a **** poor solvent for this use, but it's commonly available and won't hurt stuff. There are people who visit the hardware groups, who use gasoline, and I can't imagine a worse choice. In terms of safety issues. ******* Using the available MSDS sheets for ArctiClean cleaner kit for computers... (First solvent bottle, thermal material remover) D-Limonene --- orange oil Methyl Esters of Soybean Oil Non-Ionic Surfactant --- soap (Second solvent bottle, used as a surface purifier) Dipropylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether --- no idea, but "miscible in everything" The difference there, is the Limonene is more suited to non-polar pastes than isopropyl would be. As you would expect with products like that, you use one of the solvents at a much higher rate than the other one, but they give you equal sized bottles. Paul |
#166
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new system bootup woes
"Paul" wrote in message ... Jonathan N. Little wrote: Adam wrote: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/30...at-sink-remove With a dropper, I soaked that phase change material with isopropyl rubbing alcohol 70% for some minutes. Pointed the hair dryer at the crack between the CPU and heatsink (where the phase change material is). Then, with a plastic stick, I pushed the CPU board along the heatsink, which was sitting upside down with the copper facing up. The CPU slid loose. Then, I cleaned the heatsink with lens cleaning wipes. Thinking about cleaning the CPU with lens cleaning wipes after it is installed in the new mobo to avoid bending the pins. Waiting for things to dry now. I just use the same isopropyl alcohol to clean the heatsink and cpu. No real drying time. This isopropyl business, isn't because it's the perfect solvent. It's because if you get the isopropyl on any electronics, it won't hurt anything. The isopropyl is actually a **** poor solvent for this use, but it's commonly available and won't hurt stuff. There are people who visit the hardware groups, who use gasoline, and I can't imagine a worse choice. In terms of safety issues. "gasoline" ?!?!? Even the fumes (not to mention flammability) are not safe. I just used whatever I had around that made sense. ******* Using the available MSDS sheets for ArctiClean cleaner kit for computers... (First solvent bottle, thermal material remover) D-Limonene --- orange oil Methyl Esters of Soybean Oil Non-Ionic Surfactant --- soap (Second solvent bottle, used as a surface purifier) Dipropylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether --- no idea, but "miscible in everything" The difference there, is the Limonene is more suited to non-polar pastes than isopropyl would be. As you would expect with products like that, you use one of the solvents at a much higher rate than the other one, but they give you equal sized bottles. Paul The fans spin!!! :-) purple +5.166V green +4.321V (short PWR-GND with screwdriver) = +0.12V That was with CPU and RAM (no video card) on cardboard. Will install in Antec case and then install video card. Thanks to ALL for your help. |
#167
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new system bootup woes
On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 13:03:00 -0800
"Adam" wrote: Uh-oh, when removing the heatsink, the CPU was pulled right out of the socket with it. That thermal tape is strong. What to do? Examine the pins. ;-} Cybe R. Wizard -- Nice computers don't go down. Larry Niven, Steven Barnes "The Barsoom Project" |
#168
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new system bootup woes
On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 14:10:32 -0800
"Adam" wrote: Luckily, all the pins still look perfect (straight and intact). Whew! Good to hear! Cybe R. Wizard -- Nice computers don't go down. Larry Niven, Steven Barnes "The Barsoom Project" |
#169
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new system bootup woes
Paul wrote:
Jonathan N. Little wrote: Adam wrote: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/30...at-sink-remove With a dropper, I soaked that phase change material with isopropyl rubbing alcohol 70% for some minutes. Pointed the hair dryer at the crack between the CPU and heatsink (where the phase change material is). Then, with a plastic stick, I pushed the CPU board along the heatsink, which was sitting upside down with the copper facing up. The CPU slid loose. Then, I cleaned the heatsink with lens cleaning wipes. Thinking about cleaning the CPU with lens cleaning wipes after it is installed in the new mobo to avoid bending the pins. Waiting for things to dry now. I just use the same isopropyl alcohol to clean the heatsink and cpu. No real drying time. This isopropyl business, isn't because it's the perfect solvent. It's because if you get the isopropyl on any electronics, it won't hurt anything. The isopropyl is actually a **** poor solvent for this use, but it's commonly available and won't hurt stuff. I would not say **** poor. It works, it degreases, it does no harm to the PCB or components...and it wont kill you if you do not choose to drink it. This is in contrast to the tetrafluoro chloride that was used to clean up boards after wave-soldering. There are people who visit the hardware groups, who use gasoline, and I can't imagine a worse choice. In terms of safety issues. Make sure they are smoking when they do it ;-) -- Take care, Jonathan ------------------- LITTLE WORKS STUDIO http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com |
#170
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new system bootup woes
Adam wrote:
The fans spin!!! :-) purple +5.166V green +4.321V (short PWR-GND with screwdriver) = +0.12V That was with CPU and RAM (no video card) on cardboard. Will install in Antec case and then install video card. Thanks to ALL for your help. See, it's magic :-) Now, on with the testing. Paul |
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