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#31
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Wonderfully funny Inquirer Intel FUD presentation
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:06:39 -0400, Keith wrote:
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 04:44:56 +0000, max wrote: On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:40:18 -0400, Keith wrote: On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 00:55:45 +0000, max wrote: On 20 Apr 2006 16:07:25 -0700, "Isaac W." wrote: I would rather have a reasonable conversation about these subjects. Some things aren't possible on this NG... ...and you're here, umm, why? umm, because there are some informative, balanced posters who take a rational, reasonable look at the issues before the threads devolve into tailchasing? But you implied that such things aren't possible here. I corrected my hyperbolic phrasing in another post, however, a few rational posts in a thread don't necessarily make for a reasonable conversation, as I stated above. S/N and all that... because I enjoy reading the flamefests, just like reading Roddy Speed on the storage NG? Ah, another troll, IOW. If you mean him, I consider him more of a zealot - every active NG has a few of them. If you mean me, I'm afraid my trolling history is a bit weak here. Reading the flamefests is a bit different from starting or fanning them. because I feel like it? because I like to see how far people go to get the last word in? Shoot. I'm patient, but not very obsessive, so I always lose this one. max |
#32
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Wonderfully funny Inquirer Intel FUD presentation
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips max wrote in part:
I figure discussions leave the realm of reasonable when the name-calling starts, Once, I would have agreed with you. Now, I'm not so sure. How does one keep order in a newsgroup? Prevent misinformation from being spread? Should inpoliteness always be answered by tolerance? Whatever my answer, others are entitled to answer for themselves. It does seem to be a predictable pattern across usenet. Then perhaps it is necessary for survival. There have been some very severe conflicts. Those groups without some sense of discipline died. -- Robert |
#33
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Wonderfully funny Inquirer Intel FUD presentation
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:35:18 GMT, Robert Redelmeier
wrote: In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips max wrote in part: I figure discussions leave the realm of reasonable when the name-calling starts, Once, I would have agreed with you. Now, I'm not so sure. How does one keep order in a newsgroup? Prevent misinformation from being spread? Should inpoliteness always be answered by tolerance? Whatever my answer, others are entitled to answer for themselves. You really can't keep order on an unmoderated NG in the face of external influences. Many once-decent NGs have died when they came to the attention of trolls and cross-posters. The things that work for me are to ignore the obvious trolls, post corrections when I see misinformation (but avoid getting into ad hominem battles with posters) and quit posting once I start having to repeat myself or when the name-calling starts. Tolerance first, then ignore them, and don't worry about having the last word. Personally, I see usenet's influence waning anyway, with the increase in specialized forums and the fact that it's a somewhat specialized area. I believe the vast majority of today's internet users don't even know what usenet is, and the volume on most non-binary groups has been dropping steadily for some years now, with a few exceptions. This group is a good example. It's a shame, really - the passing of an era - but somewhat inevitable. It does seem to be a predictable pattern across usenet. Then perhaps it is necessary for survival. There have been some very severe conflicts. Those groups without some sense of discipline died. The best NG I know of is the tirelessly moderated rec.guns, where the moderator is very tolerant of anything remotely on-topic, but completely intolerant of trollery and flame wars. It's a great resource, if you swing that way, but is definitely losing influence to forums. max |
#34
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Wonderfully funny Inquirer Intel FUD presentation
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips max wrote in part:
You really can't keep order on an unmoderated NG in the face of external influences. Many once-decent NGs have died when they came to the attention of trolls and cross-posters. Quite so. However, csiphc has had it's share of these, and dispatched them. Others groups have too. The common denominator seems to be a willingness to fight (rudely if need be) rather than give up. The things that work for me are to ignore the obvious trolls, post corrections when I see misinformation (but avoid getting into ad hominem battles with posters) and quit posting once I start having to repeat myself or when the name-calling starts. Tolerance first, then ignore them, and don't worry about having the last word. However polite this is, it also brings no downside for the disruptors. Being politely corrected is a troll's reward. Predators will not quit when there is no downside for them. Personally, I see usenet's influence waning anyway, with the increase in specialized forums and the fact that it's a somewhat specialized area. I'm sure concentrated [corporate/govt/NGO] interests would like to see USENET disappear. It is uncontrollable, pseudo-anonymous, push media, and well archived. Your "specialised forums" are usually websites which are very easily shut-down. I believe the vast majority of today's internet users don't even know what usenet is, and the volume on most non-binary groups has been dropping steadily for some years now, with a few exceptions. This group is a good example. Unfortunately true, on all counts. It's a shame, really - the passing of an era - but somewhat inevitable. I do not see it as inevitable. The real problem is ignorance: most users simply don't know what a useful resource USENET is. Or can't cope with noise. The best NG I know of is the tirelessly moderated rec.guns, "best" presupposed a given set of values, therefore must be expected to vary. Personally, I believe in _optimizing_ S/N, not maximizing it. A high volume channel will not be noise-free. Moderation has the problems of delay and single/few source dependance. -- Robert |
#35
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Wonderfully funny Inquirer Intel FUD presentation
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 19:30:47 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips max wrote in part: You really can't keep order on an unmoderated NG in the face of external influences. Many once-decent NGs have died when they came to the attention of trolls and cross-posters. Quite so. However, csiphc has had it's share of these, and dispatched them. Others groups have too. The common denominator seems to be a willingness to fight (rudely if need be) rather than give up. Yes, and there needs to be a band of old-timers that refuse to give up the ship to the trolls. Dispatch them, mock them, or ignore them; as long as there is a core of interested regulars that sees the greater good the group will survive. Ten years here has shown that it's a rare day that interlopers are interesting. The things that work for me are to ignore the obvious trolls, post corrections when I see misinformation (but avoid getting into ad hominem battles with posters) and quit posting once I start having to repeat myself or when the name-calling starts. Tolerance first, then ignore them, and don't worry about having the last word. However polite this is, it also brings no downside for the disruptors. Being politely corrected is a troll's reward. Predators will not quit when there is no downside for them. Switch that around a bit and one gets "being politically correct is a troll's reward". Political correctness will kill us all. Personally, I see usenet's influence waning anyway, with the increase in specialized forums and the fact that it's a somewhat specialized area. I'm sure concentrated [corporate/govt/NGO] interests would like to see USENET disappear. It is uncontrollable, pseudo-anonymous, push media, and well archived. Your "specialised forums" are usually websites which are very easily shut-down. Not to mention with a UI that is unusable enough to bore a male pig. I believe the vast majority of today's internet users don't even know what usenet is, and the volume on most non-binary groups has been dropping steadily for some years now, with a few exceptions. This group is a good example. Unfortunately true, on all counts. ....so we give up? Sorry, I'm not quite ready for the grave yard. It's a shame, really - the passing of an era - but somewhat inevitable. I do not see it as inevitable. The real problem is ignorance: most users simply don't know what a useful resource USENET is. Or can't cope with noise. 'N' works. Filters work. One needn't read *everything*. The best NG I know of is the tirelessly moderated rec.guns, sci.military.moderated is pretty good too, though I haven't dropped by there in a while. "best" presupposed a given set of values, therefore must be expected to vary. Personally, I believe in _optimizing_ S/N, not maximizing it. A high volume channel will not be noise-free. Moderation has the problems of delay and single/few source dependance. AIUI, moderated groups can be post-moderated, but I don't understand all the details. The real issue is whether trolls should be allowed to shut down the medium without a fight. Certainly ISPs no longer see NNTP as a profitable offering. Fortunately there are cheap alternatives. -- Keith |
#36
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Wonderfully funny Inquirer Intel FUD presentation
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Keith wrote in part:
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 19:30:47 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote: However polite this is, it also brings no downside for the disruptors. Being politely corrected is a troll's reward. Predators will not quit when there is no downside for them. Switch that around a bit and one gets "being politically correct is a troll's reward". Political correctness will kill us all. Yes, in the sense of prior-restraint or paranoia of causing offense. PC is essentially an ad-hominem over form which neglects substance. But it has no strength. ...so we give up? Sorry, I'm not quite ready for the grave yard. Certainly not! However, it is important to recognize the overall climate and adjust tactics accordingly. So anytime an ISP mentions dropping news, we should reply: "So you are not a full-service ISP?" I think this is what keeps news alive. AIUI, moderated groups can be post-moderated, but I don't understand all the details. The real issue is whether trolls should be allowed to shut down the medium without a fight. Certainly ISPs no longer see NNTP as a profitable offering. Fortunately there are cheap alternatives. Yes, but this reduces the influx of new participants. A lingering death. -- Robert |
#37
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Wonderfully funny Inquirer Intel FUD presentation
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:29:03 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Keith wrote in part: On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 19:30:47 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote: However polite this is, it also brings no downside for the disruptors. Being politely corrected is a troll's reward. Predators will not quit when there is no downside for them. Switch that around a bit and one gets "being politically correct is a troll's reward". Political correctness will kill us all. Yes, in the sense of prior-restraint or paranoia of causing offense. PC is essentially an ad-hominem over form which neglects substance. But it has no strength. That depends on how you define "strength". I consider the power of law, (i.e. "hate crimes") "strength". I consider the threat of loss of a job for a wrongly worded phrase, "strength". I consider grading on colleges by thought, "strength". Political Correctness has a *lot* of "strength". Yes, it is prior restraint, but more insideous because it is not officially santioned by government, thus doesn't fall under the first amendment. ...so we give up? Sorry, I'm not quite ready for the grave yard. Certainly not! However, it is important to recognize the overall climate and adjust tactics accordingly. So anytime an ISP mentions dropping news, we should reply: "So you are not a full-service ISP?" I think this is what keeps news alive. ....and they reply, "what's news"? IS that 60minutes? We don't carry that. I understand what you mean, but the idea of costing out every minute of our life isn't useful either. MY employer is *looking* at a way of providing a limited external news service, but one must justify the need. ...kinda like the paranoia of the Usenet two decades ago. For $12/year I'll not fill out the stupid forms, thanks. AIUI, moderated groups can be post-moderated, but I don't understand all the details. The real issue is whether trolls should be allowed to shut down the medium without a fight. Certainly ISPs no longer see NNTP as a profitable offering. Fortunately there are cheap alternatives. Yes, but this reduces the influx of new participants. A lingering death. You may be right, but the infusion of AOLers and Googlies hasn't been exactly a great thing either. -- Keith |
#38
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Wonderfully funny Inquirer Intel FUD presentation
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Keith wrote in part:
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:29:03 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote: Yes, in the sense of prior-restraint or paranoia of causing offense. PC is essentially an ad-hominem over form which neglects substance. But it has no strength. That depends on how you define "strength". Yes, it does. I consider "strength" to be from inherent attractiveness or logic. Something integral to the the thing itself, not added on afterwards. I consider the power of law, (i.e. "hate crimes") "strength". OK. I consider the need to resort to law/rules to be an obvious sign of weakness. BTW: I have no problems with "hate crimes" as defined in the US (but big problems with the EU defn). In the US, the hate element only increases punishments for existing crimes, it doesn't create new ones. That's fair, because criminal punishments should be to maintain some vision of social order. I consider the threat of loss of a job for a wrongly worded phrase, "strength". That (and all the other event you list) can happen. They do happen, but hardly on any statistically significant base. It is not strength to worry excessively about low-probability consequences. Ironically, it is PCesqe to whine about the injustices of PC! In this specific instance, I fully expect to face consequences for all my actions. Losing a job isn't the end of the world (at least not in most parts of the US (but perhas worse in EU). I didn't own the job. I consider grading on colleges by thought, "strength". This has happened from time immemorial. Any teacher who grades by agreement rather than quality of work is incompetant. One should always avoid incompetants, especially as teachers. But when you make a mistake, take your medecin and don't whine about it. Political Correctness has a *lot* of "strength". Yes, it is prior restraint, but more insideous because it is not officially santioned by government, thus doesn't fall under the first amendment. So? You cannot (and arguable should not) legislate rationality. of providing a limited external news service, but one must justify the need. ...kinda like the paranoia of the Usenet two decades ago. For $12/year I'll not fill out the stupid forms, thanks. Perhaps. But isn't this another way of giving into the trolls? You may be right, but the infusion of AOLers and Googlies hasn't been exactly a great thing either. I think it has. Sure, there's lots of dross, but a few gems arrive too. New blood is always needed. -- Robert |
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