Antec power supply

Here's the situation. I was moving my pc and I dropped the surge protector on
the floor and broke it. So I've been plugging the computer directly into the
wall and switching on the power supply switch on the back of the case and then
switching it off again and unplugging it when I'm done. I don't like leaving it
plugged in all day when I'm at work. You never know when an afternoon
thunderstorm is going to pop up. I've noticed a couple times the power didn't
want to come on when I flipped the switch. Is it safe to unplug the computer
without turning off the power supply switch first? Is the switch a basic
on/off switch or does it also contain other circuits that protect the power
supply and computer components from a sudden jolt of electricity?

"DJS0302" wrote in message
...
Here's the situation. I was moving my pc and I dropped the surge
protector on
the floor and broke it. So I've been plugging the computer directly into
the
wall and switching on the power supply switch on the back of the case and
then
switching it off again and unplugging it when I'm done. I don't like
leaving it
plugged in all day when I'm at work. You never know when an afternoon
thunderstorm is going to pop up. I've noticed a couple times the power
didn't
want to come on when I flipped the switch. Is it safe to unplug the
computer
without turning off the power supply switch first? Is the switch a basic
on/off switch or does it also contain other circuits that protect the
power
supply and computer components from a sudden jolt of electricity?

In all the PSUs I've worked on (and there've been 3 or 4 - I haven't seen an
Antec yet though), the power switch (where fitted) is wired into the circuit
as a simple way of isolating the mains (before anything else in the circuit)
so switching that off has the same effect as pulling out the mains plug. Its
well worth buying another surge suppressor though or better still a UPS
(Uninterruptible Power Supply) with built in surge suppression - that
includes a battery in it and it will allow you to keep using the machine for
a few minutes (to save your work/close down applications and windows etc) in
the event of a mains outage.

Paul

On 25 Aug 2004 06:10:09 GMT, ospam (DJS0302)
wrote:

Here's the situation. I was moving my pc and I dropped the surge protector on
the floor and broke it. So I've been plugging the computer directly into the
wall and switching on the power supply switch on the back of the case and then
switching it off again and unplugging it when I'm done. I don't like leaving it
plugged in all day when I'm at work. You never know when an afternoon
thunderstorm is going to pop up. I've noticed a couple times the power didn't
want to come on when I flipped the switch. Is it safe to unplug the computer
without turning off the power supply switch first?

Yes, many PSU don't even have a power switch. It might be
worthwhile to buy another surge protector if lack of one is going
to cause constant unplugging of the system.


Is the switch a basic
on/off switch or does it also contain other circuits that protect the power
supply and computer components from a sudden jolt of electricity?

Basic on/off

You fear damage so you disconnect daily. Well, if the power
strip is a surge protector type, then it may even contribute
to damage of the adjacent computer. It can complete a circuit
so that a surge finds a path from cloud to earth via the
computer. This is how damage occurs. The appliance becomes
part of a connection between earth and the cloud.

If you want a disconnect switch, the superior solution is
the $3 power strip that must also have the 15 amp circuit
breaker. For hardware protection from surges, the incoming
utility wire must connect to earth ground. IOW a 'whole
house' protector on AC electric service is required. Your
telco provides same on phone line for free. Cable must be
properly earthed before entering the building. Earthing - and
not a surge protector - is protection. The surge protector is
only effective when connected 'less than 10 feet' to earth
ground.

Get the $3 power strip that includes something important - a
circuit breaker. $15 or $50 protector is very expensive for
just a power strip. Effective surge protection costs about $1
per appliance and must complete a less than 10 foot connection
to earth. A plug-in power strip provides no such connection
and forgets to mention they don't protect from that typically
destructive type of surge.

DJS0302 wrote:
Here's the situation. I was moving my pc and I dropped the surge protector on
the floor and broke it. So I've been plugging the computer directly into the
wall and switching on the power supply switch on the back of the case and then
switching it off again and unplugging it when I'm done. I don't like leaving it
plugged in all day when I'm at work. You never know when an afternoon
thunderstorm is going to pop up. I've noticed a couple times the power didn't
want to come on when I flipped the switch. Is it safe to unplug the computer
without turning off the power supply switch first? Is the switch a basic
on/off switch or does it also contain other circuits that protect the power
supply and computer components from a sudden jolt of electricity?

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
You fear damage so you disconnect daily. Well, if the power
strip is a surge protector type, then it may even contribute
to damage of the adjacent computer. It can complete a circuit
so that a surge finds a path from cloud to earth via the
computer. This is how damage occurs. The appliance becomes
part of a connection between earth and the cloud.

You fail to mention that this will occurr with any connection directly to
mains (in otherwords unless its through an isolating transformer or via
certain types of UPS devices). The "proper" solution is a UPS with surge
suppression built in and that will aleviate the above concern.

If you want a disconnect switch, the superior solution is
the $3 power strip that must also have the 15 amp circuit
breaker. For hardware protection from surges, the incoming
utility wire must connect to earth ground. IOW a 'whole
house' protector on AC electric service is required. Your
telco provides same on phone line for free. Cable must be
properly earthed before entering the building. Earthing - and
not a surge protector - is protection. The surge protector is
only effective when connected 'less than 10 feet' to earth
ground.

Your right in that earthing of mains offers some protection (at least from
the line thats earthed - I don't know how they do it where where you are
but in the UK and New Zealand its Neutral thats earthed). Only problem with
this is that if you touch the other "Live" wire, you will get a full on zap
because its that much easier to travel through the earth back to neutral and
complete the circuit.

Get the $3 power strip that includes something important - a
circuit breaker. $15 or $50 protector is very expensive for
just a power strip. Effective surge protection costs about $1
per appliance and must complete a less than 10 foot connection
to earth. A plug-in power strip provides no such connection
and forgets to mention they don't protect from that typically
destructive type of surge.

A standard old circuit breaker is going to take way to long to trip and even
if it did trip after say lightning hit the mains wires, it would still
likely arc across the contacts with nothing to dissipate that energy. I
still say a UPS is the best way to go. You'll find that industry swears by
them because its just too risky to connect very expensive server equipment
(with valauable data) up to anything less. They also offer the protection of
an orderly shutdown to prevent or at least minimise data loss across an
organisation. You tell me of a bank that has a "$3 power strip that must
also have the 15 amp circuit breaker" powering its servers and you will have
found a very ill prepared bank.

Paul

Paul Murphy wrote:

.... snip ...

A standard old circuit breaker is going to take way to long to
trip and even if it did trip after say lightning hit the mains
wires, it would still likely arc across the contacts with nothing
to dissipate that energy. I still say a UPS is the best way to go.
You'll find that industry swears by them because its just too
risky to connect very expensive server equipment (with valauable
data) up to anything less. They also offer the protection of an
orderly shutdown to prevent or at least minimise data loss across
an organisation. You tell me of a bank that has a "$3 power strip
that must also have the 15 amp circuit breaker" powering its
servers and you will have found a very ill prepared bank.

Not too long ago installation of a 'main frame', worth about a
half million, and with a fraction of the power of todays PCs,
specified the power source in great detail. Among other things it
wanted an independent drop from the power company, followed by a
toroidal isolation transformer, and independent earth grounds.

--
Chuck F ) )
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
http://cbfalconer.home.att.net USE worldnet address!

If you are recommending a plug-in UPS for anything other
than data protection, then you don't know how that UPS works.
The protection claimed is for a type of surge that does not
typically exist. It does not even claim to protect from
surges that typically damage computers.

BTW, the surge protector circuit inside a plug-in UPS is
same as that in the power strip protector. How do we know?
The same circuits are even rated by the same parameter -
joules. There is no difference between the protector circuit
inside the plug-in UPS and power strip protector.

The purpose of that circuit breaker inside a $3 power strip
is not for surge protection. I never stated same and assumed
that was common knowledge. Again, basic electrical
principles. Surges do destruction in microseconds. Circuit
breakers take milliseconds to trip. Circuit breakers and
fuses have only one purpose - to protect human life. Fuses
and circuit breakers blow after hardware damage has occurred,
so that the damage does not kill a human in a house fire.

An isolation transformer or certain types of UPSes will
somehow stop these surges? You actually think they will stop
or dissipate energy that even 4 kilometers of air could not
stop? IOW you think these will stop, block, or absorb a
surge? Again, it helps to understand some basic electrical
principles such as breakdown voltages and ideal current
sources. There is no surge protector that effectively stops,
blocks, filters, or absorbs destructive surges. Even a
circuit breaker is not for that function.

The manufacturer does not even claim this to be true:
The "proper" solution is a UPS with surge suppression built
in and that will aleviate the above concern.

There is no surge protection inside the plug-in UPS that
will alleviate the destructive surge problem. Even its
manufacturer does not make that claim. Where in their long
list of numerical specs do they make that claim - if you can
even find a long list of specs. Why provide information -
detailed numerical specs - that would undermine myth
purveyors? If you can claim that plug-in UPS provides
protection, then you can provide numerical documentation that
says same. Subtle hint - you will not find any such
documentation because the manufacturer does not make that
claim.

And now for technical jargon. Paul is confusing transverse
and longitudinal transients as if they were same. Paul.
Notice that the plug-in UPS avoids making specific claims for
each type of surge. Why? It only claims to protect from the
one transient that does not typically exist. They know many
computer users will then *assume* this means protection from
all types of surges. The jargon is even taught to first year
EE students. IOW that plug-in manufacturer knows most who
recommend their product do not even have a first year training
AND will promote the myths.

No earth ground means no effective protection. This is a
damning fact. Where for that plug-in UPS is there any
dedicated connection, from each wire, less than 3 meters, to
earth ground? Where is the discussion about earthing?
Neither exist which means the plug-in UPS is not effective.
If you don't understand the EE concepts, then you will
probably confuse safety ground (wall receptacle ground) with
earth ground. I kept emphasizing a specific phrase: 'less
than 10 feet'. That phrase summarizes why a wall receptacle
is not earth ground - in UK, NZ, AU, US, CH, FR, DE, etc.
Furthermore in NZ and UK, only one AC electric wire is
earthed. Not good enough. All incoming wires must be earthed
to provide effective protection.

The effective surge protector connects 'less than 3 meters'
to single point earth ground - which means the only effective
protector is at the service entrance - and distant from the
computer. Plug-in protectors can even contribute to damage of
powered off and adjacent electronics. Earth ground affords
all the protection - other than protection that already exists
inside appliances. Internal protection that an adjacent
plug-in protector can even compromise.

But you tell me. What happens during a surge - in terms of
voltage and current? What does the adjacent plug-in protector
do during this surge? If you recommend a plug-in protector -
UPS or power strip - then you must be able to answer this
question. Please tell us the details of how the power strip
or UPS protector operates during the transient.

Paul Murphy wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message
...
You fear damage so you disconnect daily. Well, if the power
strip is a surge protector type, then it may even contribute
to damage of the adjacent computer. It can complete a circuit
so that a surge finds a path from cloud to earth via the
computer. This is how damage occurs. The appliance becomes
part of a connection between earth and the cloud.

You fail to mention that this will occurr with any connection
directly to mains (in otherwords unless its through an isolating
transformer or via certain types of UPS devices). The "proper"
solution is a UPS with surge suppression built in and that will
aleviate the above concern.

If you want a disconnect switch, the superior solution is
the $3 power strip that must also have the 15 amp circuit
breaker. For hardware protection from surges, the incoming
utility wire must connect to earth ground. IOW a 'whole
house' protector on AC electric service is required. Your
telco provides same on phone line for free. Cable must be
properly earthed before entering the building. Earthing - and
not a surge protector - is protection. The surge protector is
only effective when connected 'less than 10 feet' to earth
ground.

Your right in that earthing of mains offers some protection (at
least from the line thats earthed - I don't know how they do
it where where you are but in the UK and New Zealand its Neutral
thats earthed). Only problem with this is that if you touch the
other "Live" wire, you will get a full on zap because its that
much easier to travel through the earth back to neutral and
complete the circuit.

Get the $3 power strip that includes something important - a
circuit breaker. $15 or $50 protector is very expensive for
just a power strip. Effective surge protection costs about $1
per appliance and must complete a less than 10 foot connection
to earth. A plug-in power strip provides no such connection
and forgets to mention they don't protect from that typically
destructive type of surge.

A standard old circuit breaker is going to take way to long to
trip and even if it did trip after say lightning hit the mains
wires, it would still likely arc across the contacts with
nothing to dissipate that energy. I still say a UPS is the best
way to go. You'll find that industry swears by them because its
just too risky to connect very expensive server equipment
(with valauable data) up to anything less. They also offer the
protection of an orderly shutdown to prevent or at least minimise
data loss across an organisation. You tell me of a bank that has
a "$3 power strip that must also have the 15 amp circuit breaker"
powering its servers and you will have found a very ill prepared
bank.

Paul

More care in reading my post would have made things clearer to w_tom but to
the OP if he/she reads the details for this UPS (as an example of many)
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProdu...duct_Id=171876
its clear that the warranty and offer of compensation is there to "alleviate
the concern" - note that I didn't say it would stop all possibility of any
damage occurring - nothing will do that but a good UPS is the best step in
the right direction (along with a regular back-up regime).

Paul

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
If you are recommending a plug-in UPS for anything other
than data protection, then you don't know how that UPS works.
The protection claimed is for a type of surge that does not
typically exist. It does not even claim to protect from
surges that typically damage computers.

BTW, the surge protector circuit inside a plug-in UPS is
same as that in the power strip protector. How do we know?
The same circuits are even rated by the same parameter -
joules. There is no difference between the protector circuit
inside the plug-in UPS and power strip protector.

The purpose of that circuit breaker inside a $3 power strip
is not for surge protection. I never stated same and assumed
that was common knowledge. Again, basic electrical
principles. Surges do destruction in microseconds. Circuit
breakers take milliseconds to trip. Circuit breakers and
fuses have only one purpose - to protect human life. Fuses
and circuit breakers blow after hardware damage has occurred,
so that the damage does not kill a human in a house fire.

An isolation transformer or certain types of UPSes will
somehow stop these surges? You actually think they will stop
or dissipate energy that even 4 kilometers of air could not
stop? IOW you think these will stop, block, or absorb a
surge? Again, it helps to understand some basic electrical
principles such as breakdown voltages and ideal current
sources. There is no surge protector that effectively stops,
blocks, filters, or absorbs destructive surges. Even a
circuit breaker is not for that function.

The manufacturer does not even claim this to be true:
The "proper" solution is a UPS with surge suppression built
in and that will aleviate the above concern.

There is no surge protection inside the plug-in UPS that
will alleviate the destructive surge problem. Even its
manufacturer does not make that claim. Where in their long
list of numerical specs do they make that claim - if you can
even find a long list of specs. Why provide information -
detailed numerical specs - that would undermine myth
purveyors? If you can claim that plug-in UPS provides
protection, then you can provide numerical documentation that
says same. Subtle hint - you will not find any such
documentation because the manufacturer does not make that
claim.

And now for technical jargon. Paul is confusing transverse
and longitudinal transients as if they were same. Paul.
Notice that the plug-in UPS avoids making specific claims for
each type of surge. Why? It only claims to protect from the
one transient that does not typically exist. They know many
computer users will then *assume* this means protection from
all types of surges. The jargon is even taught to first year
EE students. IOW that plug-in manufacturer knows most who
recommend their product do not even have a first year training
AND will promote the myths.

No earth ground means no effective protection. This is a
damning fact. Where for that plug-in UPS is there any
dedicated connection, from each wire, less than 3 meters, to
earth ground? Where is the discussion about earthing?
Neither exist which means the plug-in UPS is not effective.
If you don't understand the EE concepts, then you will
probably confuse safety ground (wall receptacle ground) with
earth ground. I kept emphasizing a specific phrase: 'less
than 10 feet'. That phrase summarizes why a wall receptacle
is not earth ground - in UK, NZ, AU, US, CH, FR, DE, etc.
Furthermore in NZ and UK, only one AC electric wire is
earthed. Not good enough. All incoming wires must be earthed
to provide effective protection.

The effective surge protector connects 'less than 3 meters'
to single point earth ground - which means the only effective
protector is at the service entrance - and distant from the
computer. Plug-in protectors can even contribute to damage of
powered off and adjacent electronics. Earth ground affords
all the protection - other than protection that already exists
inside appliances. Internal protection that an adjacent
plug-in protector can even compromise.

But you tell me. What happens during a surge - in terms of
voltage and current? What does the adjacent plug-in protector
do during this surge? If you recommend a plug-in protector -
UPS or power strip - then you must be able to answer this
question. Please tell us the details of how the power strip
or UPS protector operates during the transient.

Paul Murphy wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message
...
You fear damage so you disconnect daily. Well, if the power
strip is a surge protector type, then it may even contribute
to damage of the adjacent computer. It can complete a circuit
so that a surge finds a path from cloud to earth via the
computer. This is how damage occurs. The appliance becomes
part of a connection between earth and the cloud.

You fail to mention that this will occurr with any connection
directly to mains (in otherwords unless its through an isolating
transformer or via certain types of UPS devices). The "proper"
solution is a UPS with surge suppression built in and that will
aleviate the above concern.

If you want a disconnect switch, the superior solution is
the $3 power strip that must also have the 15 amp circuit
breaker. For hardware protection from surges, the incoming
utility wire must connect to earth ground. IOW a 'whole
house' protector on AC electric service is required. Your
telco provides same on phone line for free. Cable must be
properly earthed before entering the building. Earthing - and
not a surge protector - is protection. The surge protector is
only effective when connected 'less than 10 feet' to earth
ground.

Your right in that earthing of mains offers some protection (at
least from the line thats earthed - I don't know how they do
it where where you are but in the UK and New Zealand its Neutral
thats earthed). Only problem with this is that if you touch the
other "Live" wire, you will get a full on zap because its that
much easier to travel through the earth back to neutral and
complete the circuit.

Get the $3 power strip that includes something important - a
circuit breaker. $15 or $50 protector is very expensive for
just a power strip. Effective surge protection costs about $1
per appliance and must complete a less than 10 foot connection
to earth. A plug-in power strip provides no such connection
and forgets to mention they don't protect from that typically
destructive type of surge.

A standard old circuit breaker is going to take way to long to
trip and even if it did trip after say lightning hit the mains
wires, it would still likely arc across the contacts with
nothing to dissipate that energy. I still say a UPS is the best
way to go. You'll find that industry swears by them because its
just too risky to connect very expensive server equipment
(with valauable data) up to anything less. They also offer the
protection of an orderly shutdown to prevent or at least minimise
data loss across an organisation. You tell me of a bank that has
a "$3 power strip that must also have the 15 amp circuit breaker"
powering its servers and you will have found a very ill prepared
bank.

Paul

Paul's recommendations are promoted just like Geritol. Not
even any numbers nor which type of surges are protected from.
He provides not one science fact. Geritol added decades to
our life expectancy - if we were to believe propaganda.
Paul's total knowledge of surge protection is also based upon
sales brochures and urban myths - and some kind of idea that a
warranty will even be honored.

In this discussion and in another, Paul Murphy does not
demonstrate basic electrical knowledge. Therefore he is
easily deceived by half truths in his Belkin citation. He
even thinks a warranty is scientific proof. Again, how to
identify ineffective protectors - 1) no dedicated connection
to earth ground AND 2) avoids all discussion about earthing.
His Belkin recommendation violates both.

We know what lightning seeks. Earth ground. We know that a
protector is not going to stop, block, or absorb (dissipate
energy as Paul would have us believe) what miles of air could
not.

We know that Ben Franklin demonstrated effective protection
in 1752. He did not try to stop or absorb lightning.
Franklin simply gave lightning an electrically shorter path to
earth. What makes the Franklin air terminal (lightning rod)
effective? Earth ground. How do we make the Franklin air
terminal more effective? Enhance that earth ground.

Same applies to surge protectors. A surge protector is only
as effective as its earth ground. Polyphaser is a benchmark
in surge protection. Those who never learned how surge
protection works (and Paul never even tried to answer that
'how surge protector works' question) typically have never
heard of Polyphaser. But those who know surge protection know
Polyphaser as a Cadillac of protectors. This would probably
be the first time Paul has ever heard of Polyphaser. Their
products are not promoted on retail shelves.

So what does Polyphaser discuss in their legendary
application notes? Their product line? Of course not.
Polyphaser is about effective protection; not about having
Paul promote myths. Polyphaser discusses earthing,
extensively:
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_technical.asp

A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
After all, it only does same as Ben Franklin's 1752 air
terminals. Idea is to earth the direct strike before it can
enter a building or can find a destructive path through
household appliances. Those Polyphaser application notes
demonstrate same. An industry professional, Erico,
demonstrates how the most critical component of a surge
protection system must be wired. Even buried wires must
connect to a single point earth ground before entering a
building. Again, more facts from industry professionals:

http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf

Even the National Institute of Science and Technology
discusses earthing. An example, using an NIST figure,
demonstrates the concept of protecting a fax machine using the
all so important single point earth ground:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

But Paul cannot be bothered to learn any of this. Instead
he cites half truths (propaganda) from color glossy brochures
as if that were science. The brochure does not even provide a
numerical specification. Belkin loves people like Paul who
post urban myths without even knowing basic functions inside a
power supply (the other discussion entitled Power Supply
test). Even in that other discussion, Paul posts personal
insults because he cannot challenge the science.


Paul Murphy was asked this simple question that he cannot
answer. It required basic electrical knowledge:
But you tell me. What happens during a surge - in terms of
voltage and current? What does the adjacent plug-in protector
do during this surge? If you recommend a plug-in protector -
UPS or power strip - then you must be able to answer this
question. Please tell us the details of how the power strip
or UPS protector operates during the transient.

A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
Recommended solutions by Paul Murphy have all but no earth
ground - and do not even claim to protect from the typically
destructive surge. What kind of protection is that?
Ineffective.

A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
No wonder both the Belkin example and Paul Murphy avoid
discussing earth ground. Paul cannot even say what a surge
protector does nor define how it works. It is a surge
protector - therefore it must be surge protection? Where is
the science in word association? Its called junk science
reasoning.

How does an effective protector work? Just like Ben
Franklin demonstrated in 1752 - protector earths before
destructive surges can enter the building. Provided above are
but a few professionals who say same - with supporting
technical facts and numbers.

The original poster is advised to replace the broken power
strip protector with a typical $3 power strip (plug mole) that
includes the 15 amp circuit breaker. Then he is advised to
upgrade his building earth ground to post 1990 NEC
requirements AND install a 'whole house' protector - to
provide transistor safety. These recommendation costs tens of
times less money per protected appliance, is effective,
provides then necessary human safety device (15A CB), and
provides a power switch.

Paul Murphy wrote:
More care in reading my post would have made things clearer to
w_tom but to the OP if he/she reads the details for this UPS (as
an example of many)
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProdu...duct_Id=171876
its clear that the warranty and offer of compensation is there
to "alleviate the concern" - note that I didn't say it would
stop all possibility of any damage occurring - nothing will do
that but a good UPS is the best step in the right direction
(along with a regular back-up regime).

Paul