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Troubleshooting P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 Build
I'm trying to pin down a problem with my P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 system that
I built around two and a half years ago. The problem is that the system will suddenly shut off and reboot, usually when the GPU is pulling extra power (during gaming (Diablo 3), running Windows Experience Index refresh, or when initiating a GPU stress test with FurMark). The system will shut off completely (power light on case goes off), and then will reboot by itself several seconds later. I've run MemTest86+ and Prime95 extensively which would seem to rule out the RAM and CPU. I have gone into the case and reseated all cables, including the modular cable on the power supply. I've run thorough OEM diagnostics on the SSD and HDDs. Power supply voltages in BIOS look normal. I've even tried reverting to the previous NVIDIA driver with no luck. With the current GPU (MSI GTX 760), it will occasionally shut off when I click the Burn-In Test button in FurMark. If it doesn't crash initially, then it will run FurMark ok with the GTX 760. If I replace the GTX 760 with the card I originally built the system with (an EVGA GTX 580), it will shut off every time I attempt to run the Burn-In Test in FurMark. Obviously the GTX 580 is a much more power hungry card than the GTX 760, so it's looking like current draw has something to do with the problem. This was a totally stable system until just a couple weeks ago. When I first put it together, the system ran 24/7 doing distributed computer projects including CUDA, so the CPU and GPU (the GTX 580) were running full power all the time, and I never had a problem with that. At this point I'm suspecting either the motherboard or the power supply (Corsair CMPSU-850HX 850 watt Silver series) - the question is, is there any way to further determine what the problem is without throwing new parts at it? If I could narrow it down to the power supply, that would be a lot easier fix than the motherboard. Unfortunately I'd have to cannibalize another system in order to get another power supply to test it with. Systems specs: MB: Asus P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 CPU: Intel I7-2700K RAM: 4x4GB Corsair Vengeance low profile DDR3-1600 GPU: MSI GTX 760 or EVGA GTX 580 SSD: SanDisk Extreme Pro 480GB HDDs: 2x1TB WD Black PS: Corsair CMPSU-850HX OS: Win 7 Home Premium SP1 64Bit Thanks for any help and suggestions. Jerry |
#2
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Troubleshooting P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 Build
Tater wrote:
I'm trying to pin down a problem with my P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 system that I built around two and a half years ago. The problem is that the system will suddenly shut off and reboot, usually when the GPU is pulling extra power (during gaming (Diablo 3), running Windows Experience Index refresh, or when initiating a GPU stress test with FurMark). The system will shut off completely (power light on case goes off), and then will reboot by itself several seconds later. I've run MemTest86+ and Prime95 extensively which would seem to rule out the RAM and CPU. I have gone into the case and reseated all cables, including the modular cable on the power supply. I've run thorough OEM diagnostics on the SSD and HDDs. Power supply voltages in BIOS look normal. I've even tried reverting to the previous NVIDIA driver with no luck. With the current GPU (MSI GTX 760), it will occasionally shut off when I click the Burn-In Test button in FurMark. If it doesn't crash initially, then it will run FurMark ok with the GTX 760. If I replace the GTX 760 with the card I originally built the system with (an EVGA GTX 580), it will shut off every time I attempt to run the Burn-In Test in FurMark. Obviously the GTX 580 is a much more power hungry card than the GTX 760, so it's looking like current draw has something to do with the problem. This was a totally stable system until just a couple weeks ago. When I first put it together, the system ran 24/7 doing distributed computer projects including CUDA, so the CPU and GPU (the GTX 580) were running full power all the time, and I never had a problem with that. At this point I'm suspecting either the motherboard or the power supply (Corsair CMPSU-850HX 850 watt Silver series) - the question is, is there any way to further determine what the problem is without throwing new parts at it? If I could narrow it down to the power supply, that would be a lot easier fix than the motherboard. Unfortunately I'd have to cannibalize another system in order to get another power supply to test it with. Systems specs: MB: Asus P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 CPU: Intel I7-2700K RAM: 4x4GB Corsair Vengeance low profile DDR3-1600 GPU: MSI GTX 760 or EVGA GTX 580 SSD: SanDisk Extreme Pro 480GB HDDs: 2x1TB WD Black PS: Corsair CMPSU-850HX OS: Win 7 Home Premium SP1 64Bit Thanks for any help and suggestions. Jerry With your symptoms set, I would tend to think power supply at this point. One thing I would check, is the green LED on the motherboard. Asus motherboards usually have a green LED. The idea is, when working on the computer, you don't pull DIMMs or cards out of their slots, until the LED is off. The green LED is tied to +5VSB from the power supply, and so it's an easy way to monitor that voltage rail. When your power supply shuts off, I would want to view the green LED at the same time. It is wired to +5VSB, and that voltage is part of the PS_ON# circuit as well. The PS_ON# signal gets released, if for any reason +5VSB ever drops out. The power supply consists of two pieces. The motherboard turns on the main section, using PS_ON# signal on the main power supply cable. But the PS_ON# driver is powered by +5VSB, and the supply shuts off, if the always-running +5VSB goes away. +-------------------------------------------+ (PS_ON#) | | v | AC --- HVDC ---+--- Main_Supply --- LVDC 3.3V, 5V, 12V, -12V | | | +--- Standby_Supply --- +5VSB ---- RAM in standby | ---- WOL for NIC | ---- USB waking | ---- Helps with PS_ON# --+ ---- (Green LED) The +5VSB has a 2 to 3 amp rating (check PSU label for details). Shorting +5VSB to ground, causes the chip on the motherboard driving PS_ON# to get switched off, so then the Main_Supply goes off. The green LED on the motherboard should not wink or glitch - the switch on the back of the power supply, is the only thing that should extinguish the Asus green LED. Not all motherboards have that monitor LED. I think every Asus motherboard I've owned, had that LED. And it's great for observing the voltage that can lead to the supply switching off. A more likely cause, is the PSU is overheating, and while the PSU has a current limiter, it's possible it is thermal (heatsink inside PSU overheats, supply goes off). If for any reason, the thermal sensor inside the supply isn't working right, that could shut it off. And your Asus motherboard will restart the system after a +5VSB failure, if the BIOS is set that way. My systems here, I set them to not Autostart. It could be that yours is set to run the computer after a power failure, and that's why it boots after the power failure. You can adjust the BIOS, to have it sit in the OFF state, if such a failure occurs. When you build up server systems, you usually want it set to Autostart so all your servers recover without you being present. For desktops, it's the opposite. Paul |
#3
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Troubleshooting P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 Build
On 8/11/2014 3:06 AM, Tater wrote:
I'm trying to pin down a problem with my P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 system that I built around two and a half years ago. The problem is that the system will suddenly shut off and reboot, usually when the GPU is pulling extra power (during gaming (Diablo 3), running Windows Experience Index refresh, or when initiating a GPU stress test with FurMark). The system will shut off completely (power light on case goes off), and then will reboot by itself several seconds later. I've run MemTest86+ and Prime95 extensively which would seem to rule out the RAM and CPU. I have gone into the case and reseated all cables, including the modular cable on the power supply. I've run thorough OEM diagnostics on the SSD and HDDs. Power supply voltages in BIOS look normal. I've even tried reverting to the previous NVIDIA driver with no luck. With the current GPU (MSI GTX 760), it will occasionally shut off when I click the Burn-In Test button in FurMark. If it doesn't crash initially, then it will run FurMark ok with the GTX 760. If I replace the GTX 760 with the card I originally built the system with (an EVGA GTX 580), it will shut off every time I attempt to run the Burn-In Test in FurMark. Obviously the GTX 580 is a much more power hungry card than the GTX 760, so it's looking like current draw has something to do with the problem. This was a totally stable system until just a couple weeks ago. When I first put it together, the system ran 24/7 doing distributed computer projects including CUDA, so the CPU and GPU (the GTX 580) were running full power all the time, and I never had a problem with that. At this point I'm suspecting either the motherboard or the power supply (Corsair CMPSU-850HX 850 watt Silver series) - the question is, is there any way to further determine what the problem is without throwing new parts at it? If I could narrow it down to the power supply, that would be a lot easier fix than the motherboard. Unfortunately I'd have to cannibalize another system in order to get another power supply to test it with. Systems specs: MB: Asus P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 CPU: Intel I7-2700K RAM: 4x4GB Corsair Vengeance low profile DDR3-1600 GPU: MSI GTX 760 or EVGA GTX 580 SSD: SanDisk Extreme Pro 480GB HDDs: 2x1TB WD Black PS: Corsair CMPSU-850HX OS: Win 7 Home Premium SP1 64Bit Thanks for any help and suggestions. Jerry I suspect overheating. If the box has air filters, clean them. Clean the fans, and make sure they all spin freely: on the box, on the CPU heatsink, and on the GPU heatsink. Clean the CPU & GPU heatsinks (I use a home-made air-gun). Make sure the internal cables aren't blocking airflow, in case some cable has fallen down from its original position. {From what you wrote, I assume that you are comfortable rooting around inside your box. For others who aren't, get a techhead to do it for you.} -- Cheers, Bob |
#4
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Troubleshooting P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 Build
On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 03:52:30 -0500, Paul wrote:
With your symptoms set, I would tend to think power supply at this point. Agree with that. A few years ago I was experiencing random re-boots on a system. Changed the MB, CPU and ram - then discovered that the problem was with the PSU. |
#5
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Troubleshooting P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 Build
On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 03:52:30 -0500, Paul wrote:
With your symptoms set, I would tend to think power supply at this point. One thing I would check, is the green LED on the motherboard. Asus motherboards usually have a green LED. The idea is, when working on the computer, you don't pull DIMMs or cards out of their slots, until the LED is off. The green LED is tied to +5VSB from the power supply, and so it's an easy way to monitor that voltage rail. When your power supply shuts off, I would want to view the green LED at the same time. It is wired to +5VSB, and that voltage is part of the PS_ON# circuit as well. The PS_ON# signal gets released, if for any reason +5VSB ever drops out. The power supply consists of two pieces. The motherboard turns on the main section, using PS_ON# signal on the main power supply cable. But the PS_ON# driver is powered by +5VSB, and the supply shuts off, if the always-running +5VSB goes away. +-------------------------------------------+ (PS_ON#) | | v | AC --- HVDC ---+--- Main_Supply --- LVDC 3.3V, 5V, 12V, -12V | | | +--- Standby_Supply --- +5VSB ---- RAM in standby | ---- WOL for NIC | ---- USB waking | ---- Helps with PS_ON# --+ ---- (Green LED) The +5VSB has a 2 to 3 amp rating (check PSU label for details). Shorting +5VSB to ground, causes the chip on the motherboard driving PS_ON# to get switched off, so then the Main_Supply goes off. The green LED on the motherboard should not wink or glitch - the switch on the back of the power supply, is the only thing that should extinguish the Asus green LED. Not all motherboards have that monitor LED. I think every Asus motherboard I've owned, had that LED. And it's great for observing the voltage that can lead to the supply switching off. A more likely cause, is the PSU is overheating, and while the PSU has a current limiter, it's possible it is thermal (heatsink inside PSU overheats, supply goes off). If for any reason, the thermal sensor inside the supply isn't working right, that could shut it off. And your Asus motherboard will restart the system after a +5VSB failure, if the BIOS is set that way. My systems here, I set them to not Autostart. It could be that yours is set to run the computer after a power failure, and that's why it boots after the power failure. You can adjust the BIOS, to have it sit in the OFF state, if such a failure occurs. When you build up server systems, you usually want it set to Autostart so all your servers recover without you being present. For desktops, it's the opposite. Paul Paul, thanks for your highly detailed reply. After you and Bob suggested overheating as a good possibility, I did some investigation and have interesting (and embarrassing) results to report. My case is an Antec P280, which has dust filters on the front intake fans, and on the power supply fan. The power supply arrangement in this case is on the bottom of the case, with the intake facing down, and the filter is between the power supply intake and the bottom of the case (which has a perforated section to let air into the power supply). I checked both filters and found them clean. I blew out all the fans with compressed air and found almost no dust on them. The only thing I couldn't easily examine was the power supply fan because of the location of the power supply. So I turned the case upside down so I could verify the power supply fan was running. I was astounded to find the perforated case intake area for the power supply almost completely clogged with dust! What was happening was that the dust was accumulating on the perforations and not even making it to the filter. Since I frequently checked the filters and found very little dust, I assumed everything was OK. After cleaning out the dust and verifying that the power supply fan was indeed running, I tried running FurMark again with the GTX 580 and it ran fine! I thought I was home free until I tried running a refresh on the Windows Experience Index and the system shut down again. However, repeat refreshes on the Index and further running of FurMark didn't result in any shutdowns. Is it possible that running the computer for months (maybe over a year?) with the power supply air intake clogged has degraded the power supply and it is in need of replacement? BTW, my BIOS is not set to autostart after a power failure. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the system shutdown again so I could check on your suggestion of observing the behavior of the LED on the motherboard. Jerry |
#6
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Troubleshooting P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 Build
On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 12:00:21 -0700, Tater wrote:
Paul, thanks for your highly detailed reply. After you and Bob suggested overheating as a good possibility, I did some investigation and have interesting (and embarrassing) results to report. My case is an Antec P280, which has dust filters on the front intake fans, and on the power supply fan. The power supply arrangement in this case is on the bottom of the case, with the intake facing down, and the filter is between the power supply intake and the bottom of the case (which has a perforated section to let air into the power supply). I checked both filters and found them clean. I blew out all the fans with compressed air and found almost no dust on them. The only thing I couldn't easily examine was the power supply fan because of the location of the power supply. So I turned the case upside down so I could verify the power supply fan was running. I was astounded to find the perforated case intake area for the power supply almost completely clogged with dust! What was happening was that the dust was accumulating on the perforations and not even making it to the filter. Since I frequently checked the filters and found very little dust, I assumed everything was OK. After cleaning out the dust and verifying that the power supply fan was indeed running, I tried running FurMark again with the GTX 580 and it ran fine! I thought I was home free until I tried running a refresh on the Windows Experience Index and the system shut down again. However, repeat refreshes on the Index and further running of FurMark didn't result in any shutdowns. Is it possible that running the computer for months (maybe over a year?) with the power supply air intake clogged has degraded the power supply and it is in need of replacement? BTW, my BIOS is not set to autostart after a power failure. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the system shutdown again so I could check on your suggestion of observing the behavior of the LED on the motherboard. Jerry Well I was thinking that cleaning out the air intake to my power supply might have cured the problem, but I ran anotherWindows Experience Index refresh and it shut down the computer again. This time the side of the case was open and I was able to observe the lights during this episode. My motherboard doesn't have a single green LED as Paul suggested, rather it has an illuminated power button, an illuminated reset button, and a two digit alpha-numeric diagnostic display (all of these items are mounted directly on the motherboard). When the computer shut down, I quickly looked in the case and the two digit LED display turned off, but the illumination for the power and reset switches remained on. I guess this continues to leave me confused as to where the problem lies. Jerry |
#7
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Troubleshooting P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 Build
Tater wrote:
Is it possible that running the computer for months (maybe over a year?) with the power supply air intake clogged has degraded the power supply and it is in need of replacement? The electrolytic capacitors (according to one supplier), will last 15 years with a moderate temperature rise. After 15 years, the rubber seal on the bottom of the capacitor tends to degrade and allow the electrolyte to dry out. It's not a guarantee they fail in year 15, but it's a guesstimate. For example, if there was ozone in the air, the life could be shorter (ozone attacks rubber). Life can be as short as 2000 hours, if you run them close to the boiling point of water. That would be four months of 8 hour days of Furmark. I can't begin to guess how hot it got, but if the overtemp is switching it off, it got pretty hot. You're using the right approach - test and look for issues, with the max electrical load you would normally use. If you still see instability, and occasional switch-off, then replace it. Being careful to orient the new supply a different way, when you install it :-) Paul |
#8
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Troubleshooting P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 Build
Tater wrote:
On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 12:00:21 -0700, Tater wrote: Paul, thanks for your highly detailed reply. After you and Bob suggested overheating as a good possibility, I did some investigation and have interesting (and embarrassing) results to report. My case is an Antec P280, which has dust filters on the front intake fans, and on the power supply fan. The power supply arrangement in this case is on the bottom of the case, with the intake facing down, and the filter is between the power supply intake and the bottom of the case (which has a perforated section to let air into the power supply). I checked both filters and found them clean. I blew out all the fans with compressed air and found almost no dust on them. The only thing I couldn't easily examine was the power supply fan because of the location of the power supply. So I turned the case upside down so I could verify the power supply fan was running. I was astounded to find the perforated case intake area for the power supply almost completely clogged with dust! What was happening was that the dust was accumulating on the perforations and not even making it to the filter. Since I frequently checked the filters and found very little dust, I assumed everything was OK. After cleaning out the dust and verifying that the power supply fan was indeed running, I tried running FurMark again with the GTX 580 and it ran fine! I thought I was home free until I tried running a refresh on the Windows Experience Index and the system shut down again. However, repeat refreshes on the Index and further running of FurMark didn't result in any shutdowns. Is it possible that running the computer for months (maybe over a year?) with the power supply air intake clogged has degraded the power supply and it is in need of replacement? BTW, my BIOS is not set to autostart after a power failure. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the system shutdown again so I could check on your suggestion of observing the behavior of the LED on the motherboard. Jerry Well I was thinking that cleaning out the air intake to my power supply might have cured the problem, but I ran anotherWindows Experience Index refresh and it shut down the computer again. This time the side of the case was open and I was able to observe the lights during this episode. My motherboard doesn't have a single green LED as Paul suggested, rather it has an illuminated power button, an illuminated reset button, and a two digit alpha-numeric diagnostic display (all of these items are mounted directly on the motherboard). When the computer shut down, I quickly looked in the case and the two digit LED display turned off, but the illumination for the power and reset switches remained on. I guess this continues to leave me confused as to where the problem lies. Jerry In some of these situations, you can't tell if it is motherboard side or power supply side that is doing it. The processor has THERMTRIP, which can turn off the power supply. If the processor overheats, it is protected, and THERMTRIP from the CPU feeds into some motherboard logic, causing PS_ON# to go off. To test that path, you use a "CPU burn" or "100% loading" CPU test (no big video loading is required for this test). If you can run Prime95 for hours without the PSU going off, that tells you the CPU is not asserting THERMTRIP for no reason. Running the CPU at 100% with Prime95, doesn't draw as much power as running Furmark would on a high-end video card. If your CPU is stable in this sort of test, that helps take the motherboard off the suspect list a bit. There is a need to "isolate to the nearest subsystem", and it isn't always easy to do that. When testing, right up to the end there can be some uncertainty as to what is broken. ******* Your LED results suggest the Power and Reset illumination are running off +5VSB. The fact they remain illuminated, says the |5VSB portion of the PSU is still operating. Just the main section switched off. The PSU can switch off for two reasons. It can switch off on overcurrent or overheat (internally detected PSU issue). It can also switch off if the motherboard turns off the signal. It's the symptom correlation that matters here - if the PS_ON# was going off at random, we don't know what is doing it. If the supply appears to be going off only under significant load, and the test in the first part of my posting is passing, then it suggests the problem is the PSU. So do the 100% loading CPU-only test. If the system always stays up with that, and yet it fails on Furmark or other video activity, it's most likely to be the PSU that needs replacement. Proper PSU testers are not all that common (expensive), and if you take your computer to a shop, they would simply swap out the supply and retest. If the swap out didn't fix it, they'd then be focused on motherboard (or CPU THERMTRIP). Watching which cases are failing, helps eliminate some things and make it less likely that swapping them will fix the problem. Checking for the LEDs going out, was to see whether the +5VSB portion of the PSU was winking out. You can overload that section with enough electrical load, such as charging two iPads, running a USB lamp, or an excessive number of USB toys. Since they starting running USB ports of +5VSB, we have to be a bit aware of the consequences of using too much USB power. At one time, the USB ports could be configured to run off +5V (20 amps or more available), and then that was one less thing to worry about. The +5VSB section only has two or three amps, and the motherboard can be using around one amp to start with. Leaving one or two amps for toys, which is not much. But what triggers the failure, is intended to narrow down where the switch-off is happening. The symptoms still point to PSU, and running more tests is to narrow it down a bit better (to justify spending money on another supply, to test with if necessary). I've used up all my supplies here, so I have to pull one from a working system, to test with. Paul |
#9
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Troubleshooting P8Z68 DELUXE/GEN3 Build
On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 23:49:32 -0400, Paul wrote:
In some of these situations, you can't tell if it is motherboard side or power supply side that is doing it. The processor has THERMTRIP, which can turn off the power supply. If the processor overheats, it is protected, and THERMTRIP from the CPU feeds into some motherboard logic, causing PS_ON# to go off. To test that path, you use a "CPU burn" or "100% loading" CPU test (no big video loading is required for this test). If you can run Prime95 for hours without the PSU going off, that tells you the CPU is not asserting THERMTRIP for no reason. Running the CPU at 100% with Prime95, doesn't draw as much power as running Furmark would on a high-end video card. If your CPU is stable in this sort of test, that helps take the motherboard off the suspect list a bit. There is a need to "isolate to the nearest subsystem", and it isn't always easy to do that. When testing, right up to the end there can be some uncertainty as to what is broken. ******* Your LED results suggest the Power and Reset illumination are running off +5VSB. The fact they remain illuminated, says the |5VSB portion of the PSU is still operating. Just the main section switched off. The PSU can switch off for two reasons. It can switch off on overcurrent or overheat (internally detected PSU issue). It can also switch off if the motherboard turns off the signal. It's the symptom correlation that matters here - if the PS_ON# was going off at random, we don't know what is doing it. If the supply appears to be going off only under significant load, and the test in the first part of my posting is passing, then it suggests the problem is the PSU. So do the 100% loading CPU-only test. If the system always stays up with that, and yet it fails on Furmark or other video activity, it's most likely to be the PSU that needs replacement. Proper PSU testers are not all that common (expensive), and if you take your computer to a shop, they would simply swap out the supply and retest. If the swap out didn't fix it, they'd then be focused on motherboard (or CPU THERMTRIP). Watching which cases are failing, helps eliminate some things and make it less likely that swapping them will fix the problem. Checking for the LEDs going out, was to see whether the +5VSB portion of the PSU was winking out. You can overload that section with enough electrical load, such as charging two iPads, running a USB lamp, or an excessive number of USB toys. Since they starting running USB ports of +5VSB, we have to be a bit aware of the consequences of using too much USB power. At one time, the USB ports could be configured to run off +5V (20 amps or more available), and then that was one less thing to worry about. The +5VSB section only has two or three amps, and the motherboard can be using around one amp to start with. Leaving one or two amps for toys, which is not much. But what triggers the failure, is intended to narrow down where the switch-off is happening. The symptoms still point to PSU, and running more tests is to narrow it down a bit better (to justify spending money on another supply, to test with if necessary). I've used up all my supplies here, so I have to pull one from a working system, to test with. Paul I have run Prime95 for about 3.5 hours with no issues. I've decided to order a new power supply (Seasonic X850), so we'll see if that fixes things. Thanks again for your help. Jerry |
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