Thinking of buying a Dell? Think again!

Me too!
"HH" wrote in message
.. .
Yep. We be not the same person. So, she's wrong and owes me $5!!!
HH

"Tom Scales" wrote in message
...
No, he's not. Check out the news server. He's in Houston (actually goes
the
Austin's server) and I'm in Pennsylvania.

There IS more than one happy customer.

Tom
"Dawn Killick" wrote in message
...

"HH" wrote in message
...
I read it, and just ordered my 2nd Dell ( an 1100 notebook) anyway.
So
there!
Plonk
HH


You *are* Tom Scales and I claim my $5

It's all about perspective.

I manage the operations organization of a medium size company. My teams have
about 500 customer services reps across the US.

We're by far the largest in our industry, by about a factor of 15. Most
competitors are mom and pop operations.

I have clear, published metrics that show our service is superior to
everyone else. Every measure.

The problem?

That's not our reputation. We have to be world-class in service, hugely
superior to anyone else, because we spend every day with a target painted on
us. So, I'm spending literally millions on technology improvements.

Gotta do it.

You see, most people misunderstand the difference between QUANTITY of
complaints (a meaningless measure) and PERCENTAGE of complaints (a
meaningful measure).

Being 15 times larger than my next competitor, if I have 10 times the
complaints, then, wow, I look terrible.

But since I do 15 times the transactions, then my competitor has 50% more
complaints -- per transaction.

That's Dell's problem. They're so big that even though their complains are
lower than most, by a true measure, the anecdotes are out of control.

If their service was truly as bad as sometimes represented here, then there
would be MILLIONS of posts every week from unhappy customers. Not hundreds,
not thousands, MILLIONS.

There are not, are there?.

Before I get the 'apologist' term thrown at me (which I will), I too
understand that Dell's service has slipped. Every company's service has
slipped. The profit margins are razor thin, because we all want $400
desktops and $700 laptops. For the current price/performance, there just
isn't any money for quality service.

That's why there ARE premium service plans. For those that desire better
service, just pay for it.

Tom
"~~Alan~~" wrote in message
...
Think about it. Every organization as large as Dell is going to have both
happy customers and unhappy customers.

I love my Dell product, but I feel that their customer service sucks the
big
one, but that is for another post. Am I going to give up on Dell, I don't
think so. Over all, they do make a good product. If you have a problem
with a CS agent, speak to a manager and continue to go up the ladder until
you speak with Mike's office. But when you do speak with them, remember
this: act professional, you'll catch more flies with honey than you will
with fly paper.

I've had problems with my local supermarket because they continue to
overcharge me at the checkout line (actually, the scanners are not
programed
correctly) and after waiting in line to check out, I have to wait in
another
line for a correction/refund. I spoke with the manager who said sorry but
that's the way we are set up to do business. A call to his district
manager, and then to the VP for the area operations and the system was
changed. From both the store manager and his DM, I was told the computer
made a mistake. The VP didn't think so. He didn't think the computer set
up the business like that, either.

Do I no longer shop there? No, I still go back because they 1) do have
better prices, and 2) they are closer and more convenient for my needs.
Am
I going to cut off my nose to spite my face?

The Same post? Maybe not the same words, but the same message are in
those
NGs. So what is this person going to do? Get ****ed off at Dell? He's
probably the same guy that got ****ed off at Compaq, HP, IBM, etc.

Thank you for your time.
~alan

"Irene" wrote in message
...
The same post?

Sure you did.

"~~Alan~~" wrote in message
...
Wow! I just saw this same post in the following news groups (in no
special
orger):

Compaq/HP Radio Shack
Verizon Shaw's Supermarkets
Comcast Ford
IBM General Motors
Gateway Toyota
Pacific Bell American Airlines
Microsoft Maxell
Apple Staples
Amazon and the list goes on and on

if this is the worst thing in your life, let's trade places.

~Alan


"Psychomation" wrote in
message
...
1) We bought one PC and all went fine.
2) Ordered a second one many months later and for technical reasons,
cancelled the order within 24 hours by both fax and email. We
received
a
confirmation of the cancellation from the service rep. This rep was
not
available by phone and would not return my call to the number left
on
2 voice messages and 2 emails.

3) The next month, the full amount of transaction was charged to our
account!

4) Maybe worst of all, any communication to cust service has
resulted
in
the address being put on a mailing list.

5) The request to remove from list has resulted in a second
"subscription"
to the same mailing list.

6) The "unsubscribe page" of the list gives a "Service not
available"
error.

Conclusion - I will never ever have anything to do with Dell again.

Just in case you are scanning this forum with the intention of
purchasing... think twice about it.

~~Alan~~ wrote:
Think about it. Every organization as large as Dell is going to have both
happy customers and unhappy customers.

I think there are very few people unhappy Adobe customers. But then
again there are probably very few paying Adobe customers. (ba da bum)

So you actually think every Dell buyer knows what a newsgroup is or how to
post to one? Reality check please...

And nobody has answered a question I have posted previously, namely, "Why is
off shore support good enough for Dell home buyers but NOT good enough for
Dell's business buyers?" Our money is just as green yet the stacks of it
aren't enough for Dell to care about.

I have also offered an alternative approach for Dell if it wants to cut
costs but not quality. They could reduce the warranty period to 3/4 of a
year but offer QUALITY during that time frame. Unfortunately they have made
a conscious decision that 1) their home buyers are not worth quality support
and 2) cost cutting to the detriment of home buyers is an acceptable
business approach.

To be fair, it is not only Dell making these poor decisions. It is the
usual sacrifice of longterm customer loyalty for short term bottom line
improvement. All the management team will no doubt get large bonuses for
cost cutting this year and be long gone when all the problems come home to
roost in a few years.


"Tom Scales" wrote in message
...
It's all about perspective.

I manage the operations organization of a medium size company. My teams
have
about 500 customer services reps across the US.

We're by far the largest in our industry, by about a factor of 15. Most
competitors are mom and pop operations.

I have clear, published metrics that show our service is superior to
everyone else. Every measure.

The problem?

That's not our reputation. We have to be world-class in service, hugely
superior to anyone else, because we spend every day with a target painted
on
us. So, I'm spending literally millions on technology improvements.

Gotta do it.

You see, most people misunderstand the difference between QUANTITY of
complaints (a meaningless measure) and PERCENTAGE of complaints (a
meaningful measure).

Being 15 times larger than my next competitor, if I have 10 times the
complaints, then, wow, I look terrible.

But since I do 15 times the transactions, then my competitor has 50% more
complaints -- per transaction.

That's Dell's problem. They're so big that even though their complains are
lower than most, by a true measure, the anecdotes are out of control.

If their service was truly as bad as sometimes represented here, then
there
would be MILLIONS of posts every week from unhappy customers. Not
hundreds,
not thousands, MILLIONS.

There are not, are there?.

Before I get the 'apologist' term thrown at me (which I will), I too
understand that Dell's service has slipped. Every company's service has
slipped. The profit margins are razor thin, because we all want $400
desktops and $700 laptops. For the current price/performance, there just
isn't any money for quality service.

That's why there ARE premium service plans. For those that desire better
service, just pay for it.

Tom
"~~Alan~~" wrote in message
...
Think about it. Every organization as large as Dell is going to have
both
happy customers and unhappy customers.

I love my Dell product, but I feel that their customer service sucks the
big
one, but that is for another post. Am I going to give up on Dell, I
don't
think so. Over all, they do make a good product. If you have a problem
with a CS agent, speak to a manager and continue to go up the ladder
until
you speak with Mike's office. But when you do speak with them, remember
this: act professional, you'll catch more flies with honey than you
will
with fly paper.

I've had problems with my local supermarket because they continue to
overcharge me at the checkout line (actually, the scanners are not
programed
correctly) and after waiting in line to check out, I have to wait in
another
line for a correction/refund. I spoke with the manager who said sorry
but
that's the way we are set up to do business. A call to his district
manager, and then to the VP for the area operations and the system was
changed. From both the store manager and his DM, I was told the
computer
made a mistake. The VP didn't think so. He didn't think the computer
set
up the business like that, either.

Do I no longer shop there? No, I still go back because they 1) do have
better prices, and 2) they are closer and more convenient for my needs.
Am
I going to cut off my nose to spite my face?

The Same post? Maybe not the same words, but the same message are in
those
NGs. So what is this person going to do? Get ****ed off at Dell? He's
probably the same guy that got ****ed off at Compaq, HP, IBM, etc.

Thank you for your time.
~alan

"Irene" wrote in message
...
The same post?

Sure you did.

"~~Alan~~" wrote in message
...
Wow! I just saw this same post in the following news groups (in no
special
orger):

Compaq/HP Radio Shack
Verizon Shaw's Supermarkets
Comcast Ford
IBM General Motors
Gateway Toyota
Pacific Bell American Airlines
Microsoft Maxell
Apple Staples
Amazon and the list goes on and on

if this is the worst thing in your life, let's trade places.

~Alan


"Psychomation" wrote in
message
...
1) We bought one PC and all went fine.
2) Ordered a second one many months later and for technical
reasons,
cancelled the order within 24 hours by both fax and email. We
received
a
confirmation of the cancellation from the service rep. This rep
was
not
available by phone and would not return my call to the number left
on
2 voice messages and 2 emails.

3) The next month, the full amount of transaction was charged to
our
account!

4) Maybe worst of all, any communication to cust service has
resulted
in
the address being put on a mailing list.

5) The request to remove from list has resulted in a second
"subscription"
to the same mailing list.

6) The "unsubscribe page" of the list gives a "Service not
available"
error.

Conclusion - I will never ever have anything to do with Dell
again.

Just in case you are scanning this forum with the intention of
purchasing... think twice about it.

Dell is the greatest, best, etc. nothing is their fault. They are perfect.
Dell is right, everyone who is not happy with Dell is wrong!

"Bob Rekieta" wrote in message
...
How quickly did they correct the charge to your account?


"Psychomation" wrote in
message
...
1) We bought one PC and all went fine.
2) Ordered a second one many months later and for technical reasons,
cancelled the order within 24 hours by both fax and email. We received a
confirmation of the cancellation from the service rep. This rep was not
available by phone and would not return my call to the number left on
2 voice messages and 2 emails.

3) The next month, the full amount of transaction was charged to our
account!

4) Maybe worst of all, any communication to cust service has resulted in
the address being put on a mailing list.

5) The request to remove from list has resulted in a second
"subscription"
to the same mailing list.

6) The "unsubscribe page" of the list gives a "Service not available"
error.

Conclusion - I will never ever have anything to do with Dell again.

Just in case you are scanning this forum with the intention of
purchasing... think twice about it.

"PC Gladiator" wrote in message
...
And nobody has answered a question I have posted previously, namely, "Why
is
off shore support good enough for Dell home buyers but NOT good enough for
Dell's business buyers?" Our money is just as green yet the stacks of it
aren't enough for Dell to care about.
How much did you pay for support? How much does business support cost? Big
difference.

I have also offered an alternative approach for Dell if it wants to cut
costs but not quality. They could reduce the warranty period to 3/4 of a
year but offer QUALITY during that time frame. Unfortunately they have
made
a conscious decision that 1) their home buyers are not worth quality
support
and 2) cost cutting to the detriment of home buyers is an acceptable
business approach.
Dell has not made that choice. The market has made it for them. Americans
are notoriously indifferent to good service. Many people just won't pay
extra for it. But you can pay for, and get, good service. Emphasis ... must
pay for it. Would anyone care to comment on Dell's high-tier support option?

To be fair, it is not only Dell making these poor decisions. It is the
usual sacrifice of longterm customer loyalty for short term bottom line
improvement. All the management team will no doubt get large bonuses for
cost cutting this year and be long gone when all the problems come home to
roost in a few years.
What problems would come home to roost? You said it yourself. Dell's
competitors are cutting service too. So what if you turn your nose up at
poor Dell service, and buy a Compaq next time? Surely there's a Compaq owner
out there who's unhappy with Compaq service, and will buy a Dell next time.

The problem is that this is a low-margin business. And prices are being cut
relentlessly. In 1998 I paid $1910 for a P2/300MHz/64MB/6GB system. In 2000
I paid $1320 for a P3/800MHz/128MB/30GB box. In 2001 I paid $850 for a
P4/1600MHz/256MB/40GB box. There's not much money in there for service. Add
some more money in and you can get service.

While my Dell I8200 has been relatively trouble free, it's not even a year
old yet...and obsolete.
My next notebook may be from http://www.sagernotebook.com/
Check them out.
BD

How much did you pay for support? How much does business support cost? Big
difference.

Dell is building support costs into the PC for one year. If you want it
longer then you pay more. But people ARE paying for it. Or do actually
think it is free?


Dell has not made that choice. The market has made it for them.

REALLY?! The market asked Dell (and others) for substandard support? I
should have known it couldn't have been Dell's (or others) decision since
they are perfect in all ways. ;-)


Americans are notoriously indifferent to good service.

So Americans don't care if they get good service? Pardon my bluntness, but
that's the stupidest thing I've heard in a very long time.


Many people just won't pay extra for it. But you can pay for, and get, good
service. Emphasis ... must
pay for it. Would anyone care to comment on Dell's high-tier support
option?


"Dell's high-tier support option"??? I don't see this option for home
buyers. Dell must be saving these very few knowledgeable tech support
people for their business buyers. Home buyers get bad telephone connections
to people in India with English as a second or third language.


What problems would come home to roost? You said it yourself. Dell's
competitors are cutting service too. So what if you turn your nose up at
poor Dell service, and buy a Compaq next time? Surely there's a Compaq
owner
out there who's unhappy with Compaq service, and will buy a Dell next time.

The percentage of home buyers making repeat purchases from Dell will surely
fall. Why wouldn't they try somebody else if they know Dell's support is
substandard?


The problem is that this is a low-margin business. And prices are being cut
relentlessly. In 1998 I paid $1910 for a P2/300MHz/64MB/6GB system. In 2000
I paid $1320 for a P3/800MHz/128MB/30GB box. In 2001 I paid $850 for a
P4/1600MHz/256MB/40GB box. There's not much money in there for service. Add
some more money in and you can get service.

And Dell's costs have fallen just as much. There are NO options a home
buyer can add except to extend the length of their substandard tech support
or to jump to the front of the line for substandard support.


"Lester Horwinkle" wrote in message
.. .
"PC Gladiator" wrote in message
...
And nobody has answered a question I have posted previously, namely,
"Why
is
off shore support good enough for Dell home buyers but NOT good enough
for
Dell's business buyers?" Our money is just as green yet the stacks of
it
aren't enough for Dell to care about.
How much did you pay for support? How much does business support cost? Big
difference.

I have also offered an alternative approach for Dell if it wants to cut
costs but not quality. They could reduce the warranty period to 3/4 of
a
year but offer QUALITY during that time frame. Unfortunately they have
made
a conscious decision that 1) their home buyers are not worth quality
support
and 2) cost cutting to the detriment of home buyers is an acceptable
business approach.
Dell has not made that choice. The market has made it for them. Americans
are notoriously indifferent to good service. Many people just won't pay
extra for it. But you can pay for, and get, good service. Emphasis ...
must
pay for it. Would anyone care to comment on Dell's high-tier support
option?

To be fair, it is not only Dell making these poor decisions. It is the
usual sacrifice of longterm customer loyalty for short term bottom line
improvement. All the management team will no doubt get large bonuses
for
cost cutting this year and be long gone when all the problems come home
to
roost in a few years.
What problems would come home to roost? You said it yourself. Dell's
competitors are cutting service too. So what if you turn your nose up at
poor Dell service, and buy a Compaq next time? Surely there's a Compaq
owner
out there who's unhappy with Compaq service, and will buy a Dell next
time.

The problem is that this is a low-margin business. And prices are being
cut
relentlessly. In 1998 I paid $1910 for a P2/300MHz/64MB/6GB system. In
2000
I paid $1320 for a P3/800MHz/128MB/30GB box. In 2001 I paid $850 for a
P4/1600MHz/256MB/40GB box. There's not much money in there for service.
Add
some more money in and you can get service.

I agree with you that the hardware and support provided by the "business
computer" division is very good, probably excellent.

I think you would have a very had time finding many posts to this group that
says otherwise.

But try reading a few of the comments about the support provided for
"consumer PC's". There is a big difference and it has been getting worse by
the month. Now you may have the experience to forgo Dell technical
support(and based on the equipment you are using, you probably do), but, the
majority of the people who buy home PC's do not, and depend on Dell for
their support.
Unlike you, they can't afford to stick with Dell if they can't get the
dependable technical support that they require.


"~~Alan~~" wrote in message
...
Think about it. Every organization as large as Dell is going to have both
happy customers and unhappy customers.

I love my Dell product, but I feel that their customer service sucks the
big
one, but that is for another post. Am I going to give up on Dell, I don't
think so. Over all, they do make a good product. If you have a problem
with a CS agent, speak to a manager and continue to go up the ladder until
you speak with Mike's office. But when you do speak with them, remember
this: act professional, you'll catch more flies with honey than you will
with fly paper.

I've had problems with my local supermarket because they continue to
overcharge me at the checkout line (actually, the scanners are not
programed
correctly) and after waiting in line to check out, I have to wait in
another
line for a correction/refund. I spoke with the manager who said sorry but
that's the way we are set up to do business. A call to his district
manager, and then to the VP for the area operations and the system was
changed. From both the store manager and his DM, I was told the computer
made a mistake. The VP didn't think so. He didn't think the computer set
up the business like that, either.

Do I no longer shop there? No, I still go back because they 1) do have
better prices, and 2) they are closer and more convenient for my needs.
Am
I going to cut off my nose to spite my face?

The Same post? Maybe not the same words, but the same message are in
those
NGs. So what is this person going to do? Get ****ed off at Dell? He's
probably the same guy that got ****ed off at Compaq, HP, IBM, etc.

Thank you for your time.
~alan

"Irene" wrote in message
...
The same post?

Sure you did.

"~~Alan~~" wrote in message
...
Wow! I just saw this same post in the following news groups (in no
special
orger):

Compaq/HP Radio Shack
Verizon Shaw's Supermarkets
Comcast Ford
IBM General Motors
Gateway Toyota
Pacific Bell American Airlines
Microsoft Maxell
Apple Staples
Amazon and the list goes on and on

if this is the worst thing in your life, let's trade places.

~Alan


"Psychomation" wrote in
message
...
1) We bought one PC and all went fine.
2) Ordered a second one many months later and for technical reasons,
cancelled the order within 24 hours by both fax and email. We
received
a
confirmation of the cancellation from the service rep. This rep was
not
available by phone and would not return my call to the number left
on
2 voice messages and 2 emails.

3) The next month, the full amount of transaction was charged to our
account!

4) Maybe worst of all, any communication to cust service has
resulted
in
the address being put on a mailing list.

5) The request to remove from list has resulted in a second
"subscription"
to the same mailing list.

6) The "unsubscribe page" of the list gives a "Service not
available"
error.

Conclusion - I will never ever have anything to do with Dell again.

Just in case you are scanning this forum with the intention of
purchasing... think twice about it.

"Why is
off shore support good enough for Dell home buyers but NOT good enough for
Dell's business buyers?"

That's so easy, and it should be obvious.

1) The average consumer of home PC's will tolerate it. Some of the posts to
this group should make that painfully obvious.

2) If Dell provided that kind of garbage support to corporations for their
business lines, they would not be able to keep their corporate customers,
customers who buy dozens, hundreds, and even thousand of computers and
servers from them.

3) Lastly and most importantly, they can provide sorry off-shore support to
their "home PC' market without adversely effecting their bottom line. At
least, they have been able to do it so far. How long that can continue
remains an open question.


"PC Gladiator" wrote in message
...
So you actually think every Dell buyer knows what a newsgroup is or how to
post to one? Reality check please...

And nobody has answered a question I have posted previously, namely, "Why
is
off shore support good enough for Dell home buyers but NOT good enough for
Dell's business buyers?" Our money is just as green yet the stacks of it
aren't enough for Dell to care about.

I have also offered an alternative approach for Dell if it wants to cut
costs but not quality. They could reduce the warranty period to 3/4 of a
year but offer QUALITY during that time frame. Unfortunately they have
made
a conscious decision that 1) their home buyers are not worth quality
support
and 2) cost cutting to the detriment of home buyers is an acceptable
business approach.

To be fair, it is not only Dell making these poor decisions. It is the
usual sacrifice of longterm customer loyalty for short term bottom line
improvement. All the management team will no doubt get large bonuses for
cost cutting this year and be long gone when all the problems come home to
roost in a few years.


"Tom Scales" wrote in message
...
It's all about perspective.

I manage the operations organization of a medium size company. My teams
have
about 500 customer services reps across the US.

We're by far the largest in our industry, by about a factor of 15. Most
competitors are mom and pop operations.

I have clear, published metrics that show our service is superior to
everyone else. Every measure.

The problem?

That's not our reputation. We have to be world-class in service, hugely
superior to anyone else, because we spend every day with a target
painted
on
us. So, I'm spending literally millions on technology improvements.

Gotta do it.

You see, most people misunderstand the difference between QUANTITY of
complaints (a meaningless measure) and PERCENTAGE of complaints (a
meaningful measure).

Being 15 times larger than my next competitor, if I have 10 times the
complaints, then, wow, I look terrible.

But since I do 15 times the transactions, then my competitor has 50%
more
complaints -- per transaction.

That's Dell's problem. They're so big that even though their complains
are
lower than most, by a true measure, the anecdotes are out of control.

If their service was truly as bad as sometimes represented here, then
there
would be MILLIONS of posts every week from unhappy customers. Not
hundreds,
not thousands, MILLIONS.

There are not, are there?.

Before I get the 'apologist' term thrown at me (which I will), I too
understand that Dell's service has slipped. Every company's service has
slipped. The profit margins are razor thin, because we all want $400
desktops and $700 laptops. For the current price/performance, there
just
isn't any money for quality service.

That's why there ARE premium service plans. For those that desire better
service, just pay for it.

Tom
"~~Alan~~" wrote in message
...
Think about it. Every organization as large as Dell is going to have
both
happy customers and unhappy customers.

I love my Dell product, but I feel that their customer service sucks
the
big
one, but that is for another post. Am I going to give up on Dell, I
don't
think so. Over all, they do make a good product. If you have a
problem
with a CS agent, speak to a manager and continue to go up the ladder
until
you speak with Mike's office. But when you do speak with them,
remember
this: act professional, you'll catch more flies with honey than you
will
with fly paper.

I've had problems with my local supermarket because they continue to
overcharge me at the checkout line (actually, the scanners are not
programed
correctly) and after waiting in line to check out, I have to wait in
another
line for a correction/refund. I spoke with the manager who said sorry
but
that's the way we are set up to do business. A call to his district
manager, and then to the VP for the area operations and the system was
changed. From both the store manager and his DM, I was told the
computer
made a mistake. The VP didn't think so. He didn't think the computer
set
up the business like that, either.

Do I no longer shop there? No, I still go back because they 1) do
have
better prices, and 2) they are closer and more convenient for my
needs.
Am
I going to cut off my nose to spite my face?

The Same post? Maybe not the same words, but the same message are in
those
NGs. So what is this person going to do? Get ****ed off at Dell?
He's
probably the same guy that got ****ed off at Compaq, HP, IBM, etc.

Thank you for your time.
~alan

"Irene" wrote in message
...
The same post?

Sure you did.

"~~Alan~~" wrote in message
...
Wow! I just saw this same post in the following news groups (in
no
special
orger):

Compaq/HP Radio Shack
Verizon Shaw's Supermarkets
Comcast Ford
IBM General Motors
Gateway Toyota
Pacific Bell American Airlines
Microsoft Maxell
Apple Staples
Amazon and the list goes on and on

if this is the worst thing in your life, let's trade places.

~Alan


"Psychomation" wrote
in
message
...
1) We bought one PC and all went fine.
2) Ordered a second one many months later and for technical
reasons,
cancelled the order within 24 hours by both fax and email. We
received
a
confirmation of the cancellation from the service rep. This rep
was
not
available by phone and would not return my call to the number
left
on
2 voice messages and 2 emails.

3) The next month, the full amount of transaction was charged to
our
account!

4) Maybe worst of all, any communication to cust service has
resulted
in
the address being put on a mailing list.

5) The request to remove from list has resulted in a second
"subscription"
to the same mailing list.

6) The "unsubscribe page" of the list gives a "Service not
available"
error.

Conclusion - I will never ever have anything to do with Dell
again.

Just in case you are scanning this forum with the intention of
purchasing... think twice about it.