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External Hard Drive wont shut off



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 28th 07, 07:38 PM posted to comp.arch.storage
LOTL
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default External Hard Drive wont shut off

Just set up a External HD for backup purposes. I was hoping that there
would be a way to allow it to shut off at the same time as the
internal one does.
I installed a Seagate 250GB Sata HD in a Venus DS3 Sata/USB E-Sata
enclosure.
http://www.newegg.com/product/produc...82E16817145660

If i look in the device manager (running XP Home) i see 4 entires for
USB Root Hub, one entry for USB Mass Storage Device and then up in the
Disk drive category it shows USB Hard drive.
The USB HD and USB Mass storage device only show Power settings under
the details tab and there are no options.
The USB Hub entries show a "Power Management" tab and there are a few
options to change there. They all appear to be set correctly.
When i set the power settings to shut off HD after x minutes only the
internal shuts off. If i choose to Standby same deal only the internal
spins down.
I just tried installing the latest drivers from the enclosure
manufacturers website and still no go.
Am i out of luck with this set up? Seems a shame to be saving images
and backups to this external backup when the HD is running all the
time.
Any ideas or alternative enclosures are appreciated.

  #2  
Old January 29th 07, 09:52 AM posted to comp.arch.storage
Bill Todd
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Posts: 162
Default External Hard Drive wont shut off

LOTL wrote:

....

Any ideas or alternative enclosures are appreciated.


One obvious solution would be to use an external SATA (not USB - SATA)
enclosure; you could even cobble up an external PATA enclosure if you
cut a slot to pass the cables through (this is not strictly kosher, nor
are PATA cables longer than 18", but both have worked OK for me).

Another option would be to buy an inexpensive (as little as $7 for a
PATA version at geeks.com, though for a single item shipping would
double that and the SATA versions seem to be more expensive for no
obvious reason) 3.5" disk tray and carrier and mount them in an
available 5.25" bay to create a removable internal installation.

It sounds as if the disk spin-down facilities don't support disks that
aren't directly connected (rather than via USB) - though I'd kind of
expect XP to extend them to SCSI drives, and that might include drives
connected through an add-on PCI card (which since that's how common
add-on ATA cards present themselves to the system might work for them as
well).

- bill
  #3  
Old January 29th 07, 01:44 PM posted to comp.arch.storage
LOTL
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default External Hard Drive wont shut off

Thanks Bill,
The enclosure is USB/E-Sata and came with a SATA cable to connect
directly to the motherboard.
The computer i set this backup on didnt have SATA connections.
I chose the enclosure so i could use a SATA hard drive and not for the
E-Sata connectivity (which reportedly is somewhat buggy)
The person who i did this for also wanted the capability of using this
with his laptop on occasion and needed to have the USB connectivity.
Im really surprised that aside from some of the prepackaged external
hard drives, that the auto spindown feature can not be made to work
via the drivers or firmware on these external enclosures.
I wanted a DIY solution to take advantage of Seagates 5 year warranty
on their hard drives and now i think it may have been the wrong
decision if it has to stay running all the time.
The 2 prepackaged external HD's i looked at from Seagate and Western
Digital both only came with 1 year warranties.
The enclosure in question does have a On/Off rocker switch, but my
friend already said he wont bother to turn it on and off.
The imaging software hes using has the ability to issue pre and post
scripts. Im looking into something where i can issue a post command to
maybe disable the external HD, but i suspect with power still applied
the HD is still going to spin. Ive also know there are some serial
(maybe USB) relay devices that i could disconnect power to the
external enclosure, but now we are talking overkill and making the
whole thing more complicated than it should be.


On Jan 29, 3:52 am, Bill Todd wrote:
LOTL wrote:...

Any ideas or alternative enclosures are appreciated.One obvious solution would be to use an external SATA (not USB - SATA)

enclosure; you could even cobble up an external PATA enclosure if you
cut a slot to pass the cables through (this is not strictly kosher, nor
are PATA cables longer than 18", but both have worked OK for me).

Another option would be to buy an inexpensive (as little as $7 for a
PATA version at geeks.com, though for a single item shipping would
double that and the SATA versions seem to be more expensive for no
obvious reason) 3.5" disk tray and carrier and mount them in an
available 5.25" bay to create a removable internal installation.

It sounds as if the disk spin-down facilities don't support disks that
aren't directly connected (rather than via USB) - though I'd kind of
expect XP to extend them to SCSI drives, and that might include drives
connected through an add-on PCI card (which since that's how common
add-on ATA cards present themselves to the system might work for them as
well).

- bill


  #4  
Old January 29th 07, 02:58 PM posted to comp.arch.storage
Maxim S. Shatskih
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Posts: 87
Default External Hard Drive wont shut off

I just tried installing the latest drivers from the enclosure
manufacturers website and still no go.
Am i out of luck with this set up?


Yes.

The USB-ATA bridge chip in the enclosure does not support the necessary
commands (START STOP UNIT namely). Sorry.

Seems a shame to be saving images
and backups to this external backup when the HD is running all the
time.


Why shame? Start/stop of the disk drive increases wear. I would never even
enable this feature on any desktop PC (battery-powered laptops is another
song).

Also,I would never bother myself looking for a new enclosure just due to this.
After all, you can eject the enclosure by means of Windows when it is not
necessary and then switch it off completely by hand.

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation

http://www.storagecraft.com

  #5  
Old January 29th 07, 03:04 PM posted to comp.arch.storage
Maxim S. Shatskih
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Posts: 87
Default External Hard Drive wont shut off

It sounds as if the disk spin-down facilities don't support disks that
aren't directly connected (rather than via USB) - though I'd kind of
expect XP to extend them to SCSI drives, and that might include drives
connected through an add-on PCI card


Disk spindown works for SCSI disks in w2k too.

Disk spindown in Windows (w2k and up) does not depend on bus, and just sends
START STOP UNIT/Stop down to the storage port layer. The storage port layer
honestly translates this to necessary bus protocol (to USB storage protocol,
for instance) and then sends over the wire.

USBSTOR storage port in Windows supports START STOP UNIT for sure, since you
can eject the USB-attached CD drive via software.

So, the issue is in the USB target chip in the enclosure - it cannot translate
START STOP UNIT/Stop from the USB side to the proper ATA command.

Not a major issue though.

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation

http://www.storagecraft.com

  #6  
Old January 29th 07, 03:11 PM posted to comp.arch.storage
Maxim S. Shatskih
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 87
Default External Hard Drive wont shut off

Im really surprised that aside from some of the prepackaged external
hard drives, that the auto spindown feature can not be made to work
via the drivers or firmware on these external enclosures.


Windows supports the auto-spindown feature on any properly developed hardware,
but this particular enclosure is not such.

Anyway this is a very minor issue, and, for instance, I would expect the
salesguy in the shop to not know at all about what enclosures he sells support
this, and what do not.

I wanted a DIY solution to take advantage of Seagates 5 year warranty
on their hard drives and now i think it may have been the wrong
decision if it has to stay running all the time.


Start/stop operations increase the wear.

Destkop drives are designed (and the warranty takes this into account) to be
spinning 24x7, but not moving the head actuator 24x7. Enterprise drives are
designed to do both 24x7.

The imaging software hes using has the ability to issue pre and post
scripts. Im looking into something where i can issue a post command to
maybe disable the external HD


If this is an enclosure issue - then no ways.

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation

http://www.storagecraft.com

  #7  
Old January 30th 07, 12:45 PM posted to comp.arch.storage
LOTL
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default External Hard Drive wont shut off

Thanks Maxim for the informative comments.
I was always under the assumption that shutting off the HD when not in
use would prolong the life of it, and usually set up my systems to do
this.
Especially in this situation where itll only be used as backup once a
week and monthly for system images.
I may switch him to daily backups, but even then it'll write to the
disk for less than a minute.
I have to believe that having it shut down and starting once a day
would be less wear and tear on the drive than having it spinning 24/7.
I understand what your saying here about the starting and stopping and
maybe im being overly cautious in trying to find an enclosure that
accomplishes this.
As i mentioned the person using this will never bother to shut it off
once its hooked up. Even when he shuts down his PC, this thing will
still be running along.


On Jan 29, 8:58 am, "Maxim S. Shatskih" wrote:
I just tried installing the latest drivers from the enclosure
manufacturers website and still no go.
Am i out of luck with this set up?Yes.


The USB-ATA bridge chip in the enclosure does not support the necessary
commands (START STOP UNIT namely). Sorry.

Seems a shame to be saving images
and backups to this external backup when the HD is running all the
time.Why shame? Start/stop of the disk drive increases wear. I would never even

enable this feature on any desktop PC (battery-powered laptops is another
song).

Also,I would never bother myself looking for a new enclosure just due to this.
After all, you can eject the enclosure by means of Windows when it is not
necessary and then switch it off completely by hand.

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation


  #8  
Old January 30th 07, 02:01 PM posted to comp.arch.storage
Maxim S. Shatskih
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 87
Default External Hard Drive wont shut off

I understand what your saying here about the starting and stopping

In fact, I've heard this on the very same forum from some people who looked
trustworthy in my eyes :-) they said "desktop drive is designed to spin 24x7
but not to move heads 24x7".

Start and stop is the hardest thing for many kind of machinery, from lightbulbs
to car engines (in cold weather especially).

As i mentioned the person using this will never bother to shut it off
once its hooked up. Even when he shuts down his PC, this thing will
still be running along.


Is this a desktop PC? then why not push the power switch on the enclosure?

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation

http://www.storagecraft.com

  #9  
Old January 30th 07, 06:28 PM posted to comp.arch.storage
Bill Todd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 162
Default External Hard Drive wont shut off

LOTL wrote:
Thanks Maxim for the informative comments.
I was always under the assumption that shutting off the HD when not in
use would prolong the life of it, and usually set up my systems to do
this.
Especially in this situation where itll only be used as backup once a
week and monthly for system images.
I may switch him to daily backups, but even then it'll write to the
disk for less than a minute.
I have to believe that having it shut down and starting once a day
would be less wear and tear on the drive than having it spinning 24/7.


Those beliefs are not unreasonable. For example, the lowest spec for
start/stop lifetime that I remember seeing is 50,000 cycles (over 5
years even if you start and stop the drive every *hour*) so I have to
believe that less than 2,000 start/stop cycles over a disk's nominal
5-year service life (the number you'd encounter starting and stopping it
once a day) would be perfectly safe.

On the other hand, desktop drive mean time between failure specs are now
up around 500,000 - 600,000 hours, which means that the less than 50,000
hours that would accumulate if you left the disk spinning constantly for
its 5-year service life should also be perfectly safe - though not by
quite so large a margin as you'd expect the start/stop spec to provide
(only about 12:1 rather than over 25:1).

On the third hand, in real-world environments some people have found
these MTBF rates to be significantly optimistic (though perhaps only in
heavier constant use than typical desktop use, let alone the extremely
light backup use that you're describing - e.g., one study involved the
Internet Archive, while another involved Microsoft's TerraServer, both
of which experienced rather heavy loads). My own inclination is to
power down a disk that isn't likely to be used for anything approaching
a day (or longer, of course), and otherwise to leave it spinning:
start/stop cycles *do* add stress, but so does continuous running.

And on the fourth hand, leaving a disk (especially one that's getting
old) spun down for a month or more can sometimes result in the dreaded
'stiction', wherein it won't spin up (at least the people touting 'MAID'
assert that this can still be a problem for contemporary disks).

So the bottom line is that the main difference between leaving the disk
spinning all the time and powering it up once a day (or once a week, or
once a month) will likely be the power you wind up using: longevity
shouldn't be affected all that much either way, unless you intend to use
the disk for far longer than its nominal service life.

In any event, be sure that the disk doesn't get hot. 55 degrees Celsius
is often the nominal specified temperature limit, but I'm not happy
seeing my drives running above 40 degrees (and there are studies that
indicate that lifetimes are about halved for each 15 degree rise). A
'clean' source of power is probably important as well (some enclosures
are so inexpensive that it's hard to imagine that they can guarantee
this as well as a good PC power supply can, and protection against
external spikes and brownouts is also a good idea).

- bill
 




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