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Why buying laptops is a bad deal long term (dead battery = unable toboot up)



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 8th 20, 08:14 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
RayLopez99
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Posts: 897
Default Why buying laptops is a bad deal long term (dead battery = unable toboot up)

Against Paul's reservations a few years ago I bought a cheap i5 laptop (Dell Latitude) used on eBay and it's worked OK, except it powers off (sleep) every so often, randomly.

I bought a new battery and it seemingly got even worse.

I spent an hour or two playing around with settings for sleep and so on, see below for a partial list, and for now it's "OK" (not powering off after 10 minutes like before) but I'm not confident it will stay that way.

I read below that if your system registers that the battery is very low, you can get a situation where it refuses to power up, for safety reasons.

Anybody experience this?

Also whether I should just run the laptop without a battery? (After this post I might try that 'solution'). But I think having no battery might register as "low battery"? And Dell has locked the BIOS with a unknown master password so I can't screw around with the BIOS, which is very extensive (pages and pages of settings, the most I've ever seen).

Another reason why a laptop is inferior to a desktop.

RL

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...1-033a34d27d9d
Ludvik,

I think that only MSI can advise you about whether or not that firmware update should be applied [or possibly they have user forums that have convincing arguments one way or another]. Unlike software changes, firmware updates cannot generally be removed afterwards.

As for the missing Full charge capacity & Design capacity entries, I have never seen that before [even on a couple of batteries that were extremely worn out and down to about 10% of their original capacity].

I know that there is a very, very low battery charge threshold that can trigger the battery to report to the system that it is completely unusable [not even capable of being recharged]. Once triggered, that threshold response cannot normally be reset.

The threshold value is something that is set by battery designers, possibly in consultation with computer system designers, and no general information about the level is published.
It can reasonably be assumed that it is well below the Critical battery action % that Windows allows us to set in Power options [this is often no less than 3% or 5% & with the only selectable options being Hibernate or Shutdown] .
The point of the threshold is fire safety - if a battery is left to discharge below, say, 1.5V remaining then the resultant chemical reactions can cause breakdown of the battery material leading to dangerous localised currents & hence overheating if it is then recharged.

Perhaps the missing Full charge capacity & Design capacity entries are a symptom of that state.

There is another type of PowerCFg report that also includes the missing parameters but I imagine that it queries the battery firmware in the same way that the battery report did and will therefore yield the same results -

Use an elevated command prompt for this

PowerCfg -energy -duration 0 -output EnergyReport.html

Given the age of the computer, I would have thought you could claim a replacement from MSI. You should probably check your warranty before contacting them - many warranties exclude the battery so your only chance of getting a free replacement would be by using charm.

https://www.onmsft.com/how-to/adjust...screen-timeout

https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/X...6203849#M19436
https://www.windowscentral.com/how-c...dows-10-laptop




  #2  
Old October 8th 20, 10:47 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
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Posts: 1,467
Default Why buying laptops is a bad deal long term (dead battery = unableto boot up)

RayLopez99 wrote:
Against Paul's reservations a few years ago I bought a cheap i5 laptop (Dell Latitude) used on eBay and it's worked OK, except it powers off (sleep) every so often, randomly.

I bought a new battery and it seemingly got even worse.

I spent an hour or two playing around with settings for sleep and so on, see below for a partial list, and for now it's "OK" (not powering off after 10 minutes like before) but I'm not confident it will stay that way.

I read below that if your system registers that the battery is very low, you can get a situation where it refuses to power up, for safety reasons.

Anybody experience this?

Also whether I should just run the laptop without a battery? (After this post I might try that 'solution'). But I think having no battery might register as "low battery"? And Dell has locked the BIOS with a unknown master password so I can't screw around with the BIOS, which is very extensive (pages and pages of settings, the most I've ever seen).

Another reason why a laptop is inferior to a desktop.

RL

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...1-033a34d27d9d
Ludvik,

I think that only MSI can advise you about whether or not that firmware update should be applied [or possibly they have user forums that have convincing arguments one way or another]. Unlike software changes, firmware updates cannot generally be removed afterwards.

As for the missing Full charge capacity & Design capacity entries, I have never seen that before [even on a couple of batteries that were extremely worn out and down to about 10% of their original capacity].

I know that there is a very, very low battery charge threshold that can trigger the battery to report to the system that it is completely unusable [not even capable of being recharged]. Once triggered, that threshold response cannot normally be reset.

The threshold value is something that is set by battery designers, possibly in consultation with computer system designers, and no general information about the level is published.
It can reasonably be assumed that it is well below the Critical battery action % that Windows allows us to set in Power options [this is often no less than 3% or 5% & with the only selectable options being Hibernate or Shutdown] .
The point of the threshold is fire safety - if a battery is left to discharge below, say, 1.5V remaining then the resultant chemical reactions can cause breakdown of the battery material leading to dangerous localised currents & hence overheating if it is then recharged.

Perhaps the missing Full charge capacity & Design capacity entries are a symptom of that state.

There is another type of PowerCFg report that also includes the missing parameters but I imagine that it queries the battery firmware in the same way that the battery report did and will therefore yield the same results -

Use an elevated command prompt for this

PowerCfg -energy -duration 0 -output EnergyReport.html

Given the age of the computer, I would have thought you could claim a replacement from MSI. You should probably check your warranty before contacting them - many warranties exclude the battery so your only chance of getting a free replacement would be by using charm.

https://www.onmsft.com/how-to/adjust...screen-timeout

https://www.dell.com/community/XPS/X...6203849#M19436
https://www.windowscentral.com/how-c...dows-10-laptop


The battery has a fuel gauge chip in it.

The battery connector has a bunch of blades, but two blades
might be VCC, two blades GND, and the rest are for communications.

One of the blades might be an enable, which prevents the
terminals from showing a voltage, unless that ENABLE blade
is in a certain state. Don't panic if when using a multimeter
on the VCC and GND blades, there's zero volts. A zero volt
reading could just as easily be caused by an internal MOSFET
opening. This is to prevent people from using their
laptop battery as an "arc welder" by having that connector
sitting there to tempt them. The battery activates
when it's plugged back into the laptop and then
the voltage appears on VCC and GND. Not all packs
have this feature, but some do.

The fuel gauge on the battery, helps predict when it's
about to run out of fuel. This triggers hibernation,
and we hope, the disk writes finish before the power
runs out.

The battery pack is not allowed to go below the knee
voltage. The battery management chip (motherboard)
controls both charging and discharging. And no matter
what, a MOSFET on the motherboard disconnects the
power source if the fuel gauge says its empty.

If the pack voltage goes too low, one of the Li cells
in the pack will be reverse biased, and metal will
plate out. That metal is what makes batteries catch file.

If you unplug a battery pack and leave it in your
junk room for ten years, not only will it be flat,
the laptop will no longer charge it. If the laptop
detects it's below the knee voltage, the assumption
is that one of the cells was reversed biased and is
now a fire risk.

*******

In the old days, when NiCd cells were used, there was
a tendency to use the batteries as a "regulator". The
batteries, placed across the wall adapter power source,
prevented the voltage from going too high. If you removed
the pack, this was bad for the motherboard.

Modern laptops with Li cells, don't work that way. The
pack is no longer a regulator. You can unplug it and
run without it. With no fuel gauge to drive the
communication pins, the laptop now has no fueling to
worry about. It just runs off the AC powered wall adapter.

If you were to leave the pack out of the machine, most
of the time, then check it every 3 months, and charge it
to between 70% and 80%, before putting the pack
back in the junk room. That's how mine is stored
at this time.

*******

Dell or HP laptops, there are "business" and "consumer" laptops.

The BIOS password on the consumer ones, is store in
CMOS RAM. Simply pulling the CMOS CR2032 cell, resets
the BIOS password.

The business laptops are armed to the teeth with
security features. They're intended to support
HIPAA applications, such that if a laptop falls
into the wrong hands, data is not immediately available
to hackers.

The business laptop password is stored in a 2KB EEPROM
on the motherboard. Pulling the CR2032 cell out of the
machine achieves nothing. The password will still be
sitting there the next time. This makes business laptops
harder to deal with. For example, Toshiba insists the
laptop be returned to the factory, to have that password
reset to nothing.

But business laptops are run on three year lease cycles.
That means a ton of perfectly good laptops are for
sale later, when the lease is done. So if you're
picking up used or refurb items, chances are
you're getting a business class machine, and
there has to be appropriate precautions taken
by the refurbisher so that the passwords don't
cause a problem.

If an amateur sells a business laptop (stolen maybe),
then all the armaments might still be in place.
If that is the case, "no BIOS settings for you then".

Paul
  #3  
Old October 9th 20, 02:36 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
RayLopez99
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Posts: 897
Default Why buying laptops is a bad deal long term (dead battery = unableto boot up)

On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 5:47:15 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
RayLopez99 wrote:
Against Paul's reservations a few years ago I bought a cheap i5 laptop (Dell Latitude) used on eBay and it's worked OK, except it powers off (sleep) every so often, randomly.

I bought a new battery and it seemingly got even worse.

I spent an hour or two playing around with settings for sleep and so on, see below for a partial list, and for now it's "OK" (not powering off after 10 minutes like before) but I'm not confident it will stay that way.

I read below that if your system registers that the battery is very low, you can get a situation where it refuses to power up, for safety reasons.

Anybody experience this?

Also whether I should just run the laptop without a battery? (After this post I might try that 'solution'). But I think having no battery might register as "low battery"? And Dell has locked the BIOS with a unknown master password so I can't screw around with the BIOS, which is very extensive (pages and pages of settings, the most I've ever seen).


Dell or HP laptops, there are "business" and "consumer" laptops.

The BIOS password on the consumer ones, is store in
CMOS RAM. Simply pulling the CMOS CR2032 cell, resets
the BIOS password.

The business laptops are armed to the teeth with
security features. They're intended to support
HIPAA applications, such that if a laptop falls
into the wrong hands, data is not immediately available
to hackers.

The business laptop password is stored in a 2KB EEPROM
on the motherboard. Pulling the CR2032 cell out of the
machine achieves nothing. The password will still be
sitting there the next time. This makes business laptops
harder to deal with. For example, Toshiba insists the
laptop be returned to the factory, to have that password
reset to nothing.

But business laptops are run on three year lease cycles.
That means a ton of perfectly good laptops are for
sale later, when the lease is done. So if you're
picking up used or refurb items, chances are
you're getting a business class machine, and
there has to be appropriate precautions taken
by the refurbisher so that the passwords don't
cause a problem.

If an amateur sells a business laptop (stolen maybe),
then all the armaments might still be in place.
If that is the case, "no BIOS settings for you then".

Paul


Thank you Paul and Flasherly too.

I pulled the battery, nothing bad happened, and I am running the laptop "just fine" (no reboots for the last six hours or more). I agree that the reason I used to use a battery in a laptop connected to mains was as a surge protector, but if you say an Li-ion battery modern system doesn't need one, then that's great, I'll run the laptop without a battery. In the USA, I doubt I'll have too much of a problem. Overseas (Greece. Thailand and the Philippines, countries where I have lived for more than a year in each) you get 'voltage spikes' that periodically blow out your appliances, like a TV set. Hence a electromechanical 'voltage regulator' is used, where they have a servo-motor that controls I guess a potentiometer and it really works well to keep V at 230 V (I once used one for some outdoor electricity for a 12V system that I didn't want to have fail). In PH I foolishly did not get one for a new Toshiba giant screen TV I bought for my gf's family, and I heard about a month ago it went black. No doubt a voltage spike, which, btw, we've had in Greece as well (it actually blew up a refrigerator) but in GR it's 'kind of rare' (once every three to five years or so, as opposed to once every few months in PH).

I'll let you know if anything bad happens, but so far, so good.

This machine was an eBay buy and it looks like a legitimate corporate used model (eBay sells all kinds of stuff, some of which is pirated, I'm using a suspect Office 2019 DVD right now, working fine, and I would not doubt it probably sells fenced hardware on occasion), it has all kinds of stickers indicating corporate use. I'm pleased with the performance except for the battery.

I wonder why you decide to recharge the battery every few months, I guess to prevent it from going to zero and thus "shorting out" (or equivalent). But I'll happily not use a battery if it solves this random 'going to sleep/hibernation' problem.

RL
  #4  
Old October 9th 20, 12:18 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
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Posts: 1,467
Default Why buying laptops is a bad deal long term (dead battery = unableto boot up)

RayLopez99 wrote:

I wonder why you decide to recharge the battery every few months,
I guess to prevent it from going to zero and thus "shorting out" (or equivalent).
But I'll happily not use a battery if it solves this random
'going to sleep/hibernation' problem.

RL


Maintained for resale value.

I won't live forever.

But really, the laptop is obsolete, and another
person using it will likely use it as a doorstop.

Paul
  #5  
Old October 9th 20, 03:32 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Larc[_3_]
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Posts: 383
Default Why buying laptops is a bad deal long term (dead battery = unable to boot up)

On Fri, 09 Oct 2020 07:18:00 -0400, Paul wrote:

| RayLopez99 wrote:
|
| I wonder why you decide to recharge the battery every few months,
| I guess to prevent it from going to zero and thus "shorting out" (or equivalent).
| But I'll happily not use a battery if it solves this random
| 'going to sleep/hibernation' problem.
|
| RL
|
| Maintained for resale value.
|
| I won't live forever.
|
| But really, the laptop is obsolete, and another
| person using it will likely use it as a doorstop.
|
| Paul

Sounds like a younger version of the old Toshiba I have that originally came with
Vista installed (now running 10 Pro). A friend replaced it and then gave it to me. I
have no need for a laptop, but keep it updated just because it's here and runs. The
original battery is still in it and will power it for 15 or 20 minutes, but I usually
plug it in before I turn it on. Since I can't even remember the last time it got a
clean Windows install (maybe not since the factory), I'm thinking of doing that once
the 20H2 ISO is available from Microsoft to see if it might speed things up a bit.

Larc
  #6  
Old October 9th 20, 06:40 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Why buying laptops is a bad deal long term (dead battery = unableto boot up)

Larc wrote:
On Fri, 09 Oct 2020 07:18:00 -0400, Paul wrote:

| RayLopez99 wrote:
|
| I wonder why you decide to recharge the battery every few months,
| I guess to prevent it from going to zero and thus "shorting out" (or equivalent).
| But I'll happily not use a battery if it solves this random
| 'going to sleep/hibernation' problem.
|
| RL
|
| Maintained for resale value.
|
| I won't live forever.
|
| But really, the laptop is obsolete, and another
| person using it will likely use it as a doorstop.
|
| Paul

Sounds like a younger version of the old Toshiba I have that originally came with
Vista installed (now running 10 Pro). A friend replaced it and then gave it to me. I
have no need for a laptop, but keep it updated just because it's here and runs. The
original battery is still in it and will power it for 15 or 20 minutes, but I usually
plug it in before I turn it on. Since I can't even remember the last time it got a
clean Windows install (maybe not since the factory), I'm thinking of doing that once
the 20H2 ISO is available from Microsoft to see if it might speed things up a bit.

Larc


If only that were true.

One question I've got is, Microsoft is headed down a path
where Hyper-V is enabled on all computers. Only the computers
with EPT/SLAT hardware feature can do this. What happens
to the other computers, like your and my laptop ? Do the
Windows 10 upgrades stop ? My guess is yes. What will be
interesting, is the feedback the users will provide :-/

The warning came, when my Insider Edition made me
remove VirtualBox 5, and it would accept VirtualBox 6
(which runs "under" Hyper-V).

I wonder what happens, when a user reaches into the BIOS
after a successful install, and turns EPT off ? There
must be some sort of dialog box "Now, you turn that
back on this minute".

Paul
  #7  
Old October 9th 20, 12:39 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
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Posts: 2,407
Default Why buying laptops is a bad deal long term (dead battery = unable to boot up)

On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 12:14:01 -0700 (PDT), RayLopez99
wrote:


Also whether I should just run the laptop without a battery? (After
this post I might try that 'solution'). But I think having no battery
might register as "low battery"? And Dell has locked the BIOS with a
unknown master password so I can't screw around with the BIOS, which
is very extensive (pages and pages of settings, the most I've ever
seen).

Another reason why a laptop is inferior to a desktop.


--
I wouldn't buy a laptop without an override ability to remove the
battery, or, able to run from docking station or external transformer,
to avoid some laptops that will not operate without a battery
presence.

As for inferiority, it's a matter of concessions, not least
independence a battery, for some, provides. Even laptops now are a
misnomer at design edges between handhelds and so-called hybrids
combining hand-held characteristics with a laptop's dated inference to
a desktop. Not least in newer technology factors is power draw,
especially with laptops that run at high temperatures, at some balance
for the processor and what it's capable in a hybrid form. There's
something of a class-action consumer outcry, earlier last year, over
batteries at an industry integration level inconsiderately intended to
render a handheld device lifespan obsolete. Yet Linux has newly
released its own "touch operating system" for those devices capable of
rewriting the firmware with a "rootkit".

With the right specialty tools for a given device, the screen can be
pried up, no doubt beyond a technicality for many, for carefully
re-soldering a battery replacement. On devices affected by the
outcry, having spent a thousand dollars or more for one, that would
not concern another extremity: the cheapest handhelds least resembling
a hybrid or, certainly, a somewhat heavier and cumbersome laptop.
Amazon's passive display handhelds are the worst, unmentionably cheap,
although at the next tier up, active (non-"Kindle" model/brand
screens) do overlap former costs on periodic firmware upgrade sales
(model marketing), or, as luck might have, last years' refurbished
units.

All in as much a relativistic stance of applicability. Handhelds as a
class, it well might loom to be, need a PC to furnish them -- apart
obviously from industrial bias of broader services intended on a
subscription basis of proprietorship matrices, importantly no less,
for further factoring affordability. Wherein exists a smaller offset
to that affordability against some specialty for modifying the
handheld firmware to augment program capabilities from a resource-PC
standpoint (direct connectivity viz USB). At the least imposition,
from WEB-resource "applets" somewhat generically available to run on
Unix-derivative "candied" operating systems, handhelds comprise,
programmed in some instances by the same authors providing in
counterpoint a Intel opcode program titles. Again upon an adjusted
scale relative to unacceptably underpowered, to adequate if within a
limited applicability handhelds, laptops and PCs no less all
functionally share.

A handheld, practically indistinguishable from a hybrid's appearance,
at least, in a latter turn to attempt to approach a laptop/PC's
resources, in the first instance, is to say Amazon's is exemplified
and positioned for$40, at a minimum at an active display model,
further, if augmented for program and storage modification, and
another example for PDF document handling, (as reviewed and edited
first by a PC before in all practicality "mounting" to the Amazon
handheld), lastly, then within battery constraints employed for PDF
data retrieval, so as uniquely to exceed the functionality of
anything, cost-averaged, in its class -- over the PC, laptop, and by
in large expensive hybrids. A chance, given the battery technology
$40 includes, for the entirety a handheld price, to a battery charged
at some optimum state, which raises the question if it is to last
years.

I've several wrist watches with solar-powered battery cells for LF
radio reception that, among the oldest are three decades old, still
largely function apart from a usual fatigue of failure in touch-sensor
technology.
  #8  
Old October 11th 20, 02:14 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
skybuck2000
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Posts: 61
Default Why buying laptops is a bad deal long term (dead battery = unableto boot up)

On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 9:14:04 PM UTC+2, RayLopez99 wrote:
Against Paul's reservations a few years ago I bought a cheap i5 laptop (Dell Latitude) used on eBay and it's worked OK,


Gonna have to stop you right the

1. Never buy cheap computers it sucks.
2. USED ?!?!? wow.......

Not sure if laptop can work without battery but so far my two laptops work with power cord connected to power outlet/socket via power cable.

Bye,
Skybuck.
 




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