Removable Drive Bays

I've read through this thread and it just seems to me that Rob is a
strict adherent to the ATA standard -- does this necessarily mean
removeable drive bays will cause problems? Who knows. I think all Rob is
saying is you take more risk using removeable drive bays... so for any
serious machine you'd avoid it, right?


In article ,
says...

Richard Alexander wrote in message
om...
Rod Speed wrote
Richard Alexander wrote

Rod, I have a general idea of what the ATA standard is, but I don't know
how that applies to removable drive bays. Would you please explain?

Basically removable drive bays flout the ATA standard.

Mostly on the cabling detail.

If you would not mind, would you please provide some details
about this flouting? I really enjoy knowing about this stuff.

The main problem is that the cabling detail is nothing like
what the standard specifys with removable drive bays.

The worst is the effective stub you get with a drive
bay on the inner drive connector. Much more cable
between the connector and the drive than there is
with the connector directly on the drive.

SATA does cover it and so does the
external standards like USB and firewire.

It is nice that my new motherboard happens to cover all three of
those standards. All three are integrated into the motherboard.

Yeah, thats what I meant. I prefer to use those
because they dont flout the standard if you do want
a removable drive so you can put it in the safe etc.

I had to use a PCI-to-IEEE 1394 card in my old system,

Thats fine.

and it only had USB 1.1

Yeah, thats pretty hopeless for a full hard drive, much too slow.

(no SATA or RAID).

I use one hard drive as a home entertainment
center, playing movies and computer games.

Thats a pretty crude approach tho, using separate drives
for those configs. Specially when it flouts the standard.

n/a wrote in message
. net...

I've read through this thread and it just seems to me that
Rob is a strict adherent to the ATA standard -- does this
necessarily mean removeable drive bays will cause problems?

Richard has already commented on a problem he has seen.

Who knows. I think all Rob is saying is you take
more risk using removeable drive bays... so for
any serious machine you'd avoid it, right?

More that when there is a way of getting a removable
drive without flouting the standards, like with sata or
firewire or usb, thats the only sensible approach.


Rod Speed wrote
Richard Alexander wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Richard Alexander wrote

Rod, I have a general idea of what the ATA standard is, but I don't know
how that applies to removable drive bays. Would you please explain?

Basically removable drive bays flout the ATA standard.

Mostly on the cabling detail.

If you would not mind, would you please provide some details
about this flouting? I really enjoy knowing about this stuff.

The main problem is that the cabling detail is nothing like
what the standard specifys with removable drive bays.

The worst is the effective stub you get with a drive
bay on the inner drive connector. Much more cable
between the connector and the drive than there is
with the connector directly on the drive.

SATA does cover it and so does the
external standards like USB and firewire.

It is nice that my new motherboard happens to cover all three of
those standards. All three are integrated into the motherboard.

Yeah, thats what I meant. I prefer to use those
because they dont flout the standard if you do want
a removable drive so you can put it in the safe etc.

I had to use a PCI-to-IEEE 1394 card in my old system,

Thats fine.

and it only had USB 1.1

Yeah, thats pretty hopeless for a full hard drive, much too slow.

(no SATA or RAID).

I use one hard drive as a home entertainment
center, playing movies and computer games.

Thats a pretty crude approach tho, using separate drives
for those configs. Specially when it flouts the standard.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message ...
Richard Alexander wrote in message
om...

[snip]

and the tape drive, as I said, only unwound the tape from
the spindle (I mean, completely unwound off the spindle).

That last is usually just a dirty end of tape sensor.

But, that is not the problem, this time. I've cleaned the drive
several times over the years, and it was never used enough for the
tape to get it dirty, anyway.

[snip]

Why do you continue to use MS OSs ?

1. My job requires it.

Not a home it doesnt.

Required, no; recommended, yes. I actually asked the head of the IT
Department which OS he would recommend I use. I wanted to know, so I
could familiarize myself with the software I would be using at work.
He said that he recommends people in the company buy Windows XP,
because that is going to become the company standard in the near
future.

My department has standardized on a Microsoft
OS, and plans to continue using a Microsoft OS.

Like it or lump it. Or keep pig ignorantly baying at the moon.

Well, that's the life of a mushroom. It really doesn't matter what I
(or you) think or say about it. Changes will come when they come,
regardless of our individual opinions.

2. I am an OS hobbyist. I collect operating systems. For example, as
soon as I get a chance, I hope to create a boot partition for Solaris.

http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris...ies/index.html

I have the last commercial release of BeOS, too, as well as a limited
edition "Save BeOS" CD and t-shirt. I still have my Coherent UNIX
floppies and manual, too. I may get an Amiga box, and I'm certainly
interested in an Apple Mac G5 (all it takes is money).

You'll have to pardon me if I dont actually swoon.

Oh! I forgot to mention OS/2 Warp! OK, I've never actually installed
it on anything, because the version I have is so old that it can't
support my hardware, but I have an actual install disk (bought it at
Half-Priced Books).

3. Microsoft is ubiquitous. Whether I like it or not, it is not
practical for me to ignore an OS that runs on 90% of all desktops.

Your problem. You could always slash your wrists or something.

Actually, I was thinking of launching a competing company and driving
Microsoft into bankrupcy.

4. Some of the software I use requires it.

Then stop using that software if you dont like MS OSs.

I might have to do that.

Partition Magic, for example, only installs on Microsoft Windows.

Even you should be able to find something for Linux.

OK, you've convinced me. I plunked down $50 to get a box of SuSE Linux
9.0 Personal from Outpost.com. I wasn't going to spend the money, but
you make such a good argument for it that you overcame my resistance.

BTW, I also bought a 120 Gig WD SATA hard drive and Kingwin SATA
Mobile Rack. I might still buy the USB2Dock, but it wants internal
USB2 connections, and I don't have any at the moment.

[snip]

The most generous name I could give it would be "experimental."

Corse nothing that isnt written by Microsoft is ever that, eh ?

I resent paying for a professional, final product,
only to find that I have been sold a crude toy
for the price of a professional, final product.

Then refuse to buy it, stupid.

OK, I will.

I dont expect we will ever see reports of MS employees
pouring from their windows like lemmings if you dont.

Well, not as long as Microsoft still has SCO up their sleave..

.... and, probably not as long as they continue holding $50 billion in
the shareholder's money (instead of buying back stock or paying it out
as dividends)...

Microsoft has to be really crafty, to bankrupt and discredit their
opponent, this time. Linux won't be easy to marginalize.

My disdain of Microsoft is not because I am a Linux advocate; it's
that I resent having only one viable OS platform, particularly as a
consequence of ruthless and anti-competitive practices by an
irrepressible ego.

[snip]

Richard Alexander wrote in message
om...
Rod Speed wrote
Richard Alexander wrote
Rod Speed wrote

and the tape drive, as I said, only unwound the tape from
the spindle (I mean, completely unwound off the spindle).

That last is usually just a dirty end of tape sensor.

But, that is not the problem, this time.

Maybe.

I've cleaned the drive several times over the years,

Doesnt mean that you have cleaned the end of tape sensor properly.

and it was never used enough for the tape to get it dirty, anyway.

Thats the normal cause of the tape coming
right off one spool, a dirty end of tape sensor.

Why do you continue to use MS OSs ?

1. My job requires it.

Not a home it doesnt.

Required, no; recommended, yes.

No one is holding a gun to your head and
forcing you to use it at home, like I said.

I actually asked the head of the IT Department which
OS he would recommend I use. I wanted to know, so
I could familiarize myself with the software I would be
using at work. He said that he recommends people in
the company buy Windows XP, because that is going
to become the company standard in the near future.

Your problem.

My department has standardized on a Microsoft
OS, and plans to continue using a Microsoft OS.

Like it or lump it. Or keep pig ignorantly baying at the moon.

Well, that's the life of a mushroom.

Nope. Even you must have noticed
that mushrooms dont bay at anything.

Thats something mindless bigots do.

It really doesn't matter what I (or you) think
or say about it. Changes will come when they
come, regardless of our individual opinions.

So what is the point in your pig igorant bigoted ranting about microsoft ?

2. I am an OS hobbyist. I collect operating systems. For example, as
soon as I get a chance, I hope to create a boot partition for Solaris.

http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris...ies/index.html

I have the last commercial release of BeOS, too, as well as
a limited edition "Save BeOS" CD and t-shirt. I still have my
Coherent UNIX floppies and manual, too. I may get an Amiga box,
and I'm certainly interested in an Apple Mac G5 (all it takes is money).

You'll have to pardon me if I dont actually swoon.

Oh! I forgot to mention OS/2 Warp!

Still not about to swoon.

OK, I've never actually installed it on anything, because the
version I have is so old that it can't support my hardware, but
I have an actual install disk (bought it at Half-Priced Books).

Some of us might have actually used it, so we aint about to swoon.

3. Microsoft is ubiquitous. Whether I like it or not, it is not
practical for me to ignore an OS that runs on 90% of all desktops.

Your problem. You could always slash your wrists or something.

Actually, I was thinking of launching a competing
company and driving Microsoft into bankrupcy.

You were warned about the results you
can get with illegal substance abuse.

4. Some of the software I use requires it.

Then stop using that software if you dont like MS OSs.

I might have to do that.

Partition Magic, for example, only installs on Microsoft Windows.

Even you should be able to find something for Linux.

OK, you've convinced me. I plunked down $50 to get
a box of SuSE Linux 9.0 Personal from Outpost.com.

More fool you.

I wasn't going to spend the money, but you make such
a good argument for it that you overcame my resistance.

And anyone with a clue realises they
dont have to spend anyting with linux.

BTW, I also bought a 120 Gig WD SATA
hard drive and Kingwin SATA Mobile Rack.

I might still buy the USB2Dock, but it wants internal
USB2 connections, and I don't have any at the moment.

Doesnt cost much to add those.

The most generous name I could give it would be "experimental."

Corse nothing that isnt written by Microsoft is ever that, eh ?

I resent paying for a professional, final product,
only to find that I have been sold a crude toy
for the price of a professional, final product.

Then refuse to buy it, stupid.

OK, I will.

I dont expect we will ever see reports of MS employees
pouring from their windows like lemmings if you dont.

Well, not as long as Microsoft still has SCO up their sleave..

That aint the reason they wont be doing that.

... and, probably not as long as they continue holding
$50 billion in the shareholder's money (instead of
buying back stock or paying it out as dividends)...

No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you
to have anything to do with any operation you dont like.

Microsoft has to be really crafty, to bankrupt
and discredit their opponent, this time.

Mindless rabid bigotry.

Linux won't be easy to marginalize.

Its a fart in the bath as far as MS concerned. You watch.

My disdain of Microsoft is not because I am a Linux advocate;

Yep, its because you are a rabid one eyed bigot.

Plenty of those about.

it's that I resent having only one viable OS platform,

Your problem.

particularly as a consequence of ruthless and
anti-competitive practices by an irrepressible ego.

You're always welcome to set fire to yourself in 'protest' or sumfin.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message ...
Richard Alexander wrote in message
om...
Rod Speed wrote
Richard Alexander wrote
Rod Speed wrote

and the tape drive, as I said, only unwound the tape from
the spindle (I mean, completely unwound off the spindle).

That last is usually just a dirty end of tape sensor.

But, that is not the problem, this time.

Maybe.

I've cleaned the drive several times over the years,

Doesnt mean that you have cleaned the end of tape sensor properly.

and it was never used enough for the tape to get it dirty, anyway.

Thats the normal cause of the tape coming
right off one spool, a dirty end of tape sensor.

So I've read. However, I don't believe that would be the explanation
this time. For one thing, I've had a lot of experience cleaning
delicate precision optics to far higher standards than this tape drive
likely ever saw. I used to be a laser technician in a Type 10 clean
room.

[snip]

So what is the point in your pig igorant bigoted ranting about microsoft ?

My main point is that there is a better world possible, if we would
only work towards it.

I'm sure there is a fascinating reason that you are such a Microsoft
fancier. I would love to hear how you arrived in that frame of mind.

[snip]

BTW, I also bought a 120 Gig WD SATA
hard drive and Kingwin SATA Mobile Rack.

I might still buy the USB2Dock, but it wants internal
USB2 connections, and I don't have any at the moment.

Doesnt cost much to add those.

About $10 a port and a PCI slot from Outpost.com. Then the caddy
system is $50 each (for caddies that take parallel ATA drives). So, do
I want to put money into keeping my legacy drives removable, or cut my
losses and go to SATA? I think its time to shift to SATA. So, what do
I do with all these parallel drives I have?

Here is my plan at the moment. I can put a few boot OSes on my 120 Gig
WD SATA drive that is housed in a removable SATA drive bay. I can
mount two 80-Gig parallel drives to the internal bays. I can use my
old IDE removable drive caddy to access my 60-Gig drive, two 30-Gig
drives and one 20-Gig drives. My CD burner and DVD ROM drives will
also fit in my computer.

Within a few months I can replace my CD burner and DVD-ROM drives with
an 8x DVD combo burner. I would like to replace the IDE removable
caddy with another SATA caddy.

I'm wondering what the capabilities of the onboard SATA and RAID
controllers are? I have two SATA ports on my FIC AU-13 motherboard.
I've never configured a RAID controller, though I have a general idea
what the differences are between the different levels of RAID.

Shouldn't I be able to daisy-chain my SATA drives? I have two SATA
ports, but how many SATA drives could I have attached to them? And, I
understand that some levels of RAID require identical hard drives,
though I don't remember exactly which ones do (RAID 5, I'm pretty
sure, but I'm not sure whether 1+0 or 0+1 does).

I regret that I can no longer hold out any hope for my old FIC AZ-11
motherboard. It's time to pull the plug. My hopes were raised when I
realized that my old 30-Gig Seagate would only work in that machine,
but now I find that the system cannot reliably access the DVD-ROM
drive. It had been chewing up clusters on my hard drives when I
ordered my new motherboard. BTW, it doesn't work any better now that
I've removed the IDE removable bay from it.

I'm looking for a cheap motherboard that can support my Duron 800 and
PC133 memory. I assume those chips are still good.

[snip]

Linux won't be easy to marginalize.

Its a fart in the bath as far as MS concerned. You watch.

I'll hold you to that. There may be a pitched battle coming, but I
really don't see Linux going any direction but up.

[snip]

Richard Alexander wrote in message
m...
Rod Speed wrote
Richard Alexander wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Richard Alexander wrote
Rod Speed wrote

and the tape drive, as I said, only unwound the tape from
the spindle (I mean, completely unwound off the spindle).

That last is usually just a dirty end of tape sensor.

But, that is not the problem, this time.

Maybe.

I've cleaned the drive several times over the years,

Doesnt mean that you have cleaned the end of tape sensor properly.

and it was never used enough for the tape to get it dirty, anyway.

Thats the normal cause of the tape coming
right off one spool, a dirty end of tape sensor.

So I've read. However, I don't believe that would be the explanation
this time. For one thing, I've had a lot of experience cleaning delicate
precision optics to far higher standards than this tape drive likely ever
saw. I used to be a laser technician in a Type 10 clean room.

Doesnt mean a thing as far as being able to work out where
the EOT sensor is in that particular drive is concerned.

And if you did manage to clean it properly, likely its just failed
and it isnt hard to replace it if you know what you are doing.

Completely trivial to measure if its failed or is just dirty.

It really doesn't matter what I (or you) think
or say about it. Changes will come when they
come, regardless of our individual opinions.

So what is the point in your pig igorant bigoted ranting about microsoft ?

My main point

You dont have a point, just mindless one eyed pig ignorant bigotry.

is that there is a better world possible,
if we would only work towards it.

We've already done that, using redundancy where the cost is warranted.

Its never going to be possible to never have any
failures at all. The ony viable approach is redundancy
to handle failures when they inevitably occur.

I'm sure there is a fascinating reason that you are such a Microsoft fancier.

Just another of your rather pathetic little fantasys.

All I have ever said is that MS products are clearly
usable and if you dont agree, no one is holding a gun to
your head and forcing you to use anything you dont like.

I would love to hear how you arrived in that frame of mind.

Oh, just using and developing computer systems
since before you were born. Gates too.

BTW, I also bought a 120 Gig WD SATA
hard drive and Kingwin SATA Mobile Rack.

I might still buy the USB2Dock, but it wants internal
USB2 connections, and I don't have any at the moment.

Doesnt cost much to add those.

About $10 a port and a PCI slot from Outpost.com. Then
the caddy system is $50 each (for caddies that take parallel
ATA drives). So, do I want to put money into keeping my
legacy drives removable, or cut my losses and go to SATA?

I dont think there is any real point in
removable drives in your situation, as I said.

I think its time to shift to SATA.

I think its time to realise that there isnt any real
point in removable drives in your situation and
that you are just furiously living in the past on that.

So, what do I do with all these parallel drives I have?

Throw them at the cat ?

Or put them in external USB2/firewire cases if you insist
on keeping them. Doesnt make any sense with the small
ones tho. Makes a lot more sense to get another very large
drive in an external USB2/firewire case if you really must
have a removable drive to say put in the fireproof safe.

But even that is distinctly arguable value when it makes a
lot more sense to write multiple DVDs for the offsite backup
of stuff thats completely irreplaceable like the photos. Gives
much more protection than the safe can ever give.

Here is my plan at the moment. I can put a
few boot OSes on my 120 Gig WD SATA drive

Yes, thats generally the best way to do multiple OSs.

that is housed in a removable SATA drive bay.

But there isnt any real point in having that drive removable.

I can mount two 80-Gig parallel drives to the internal bays.
I can use my old IDE removable drive caddy to access my
60-Gig drive, two 30-Gig drives and one 20-Gig drives.

Pointless bothering with all those old small drives.

They have passed their useby date.

My CD burner and DVD ROM drives will also fit in my computer.

And if they didnt, the only thing that makes any sense is a better case.

Within a few months I can replace my CD burner
and DVD-ROM drives with an 8x DVD combo burner.

Yep.

I would like to replace the IDE removable caddy with another SATA caddy.

Cant see the point in one of those, let alone two.

I'm wondering what the capabilities of the onboard SATA and RAID
controllers are? I have two SATA ports on my FIC AU-13 motherboard.
I've never configured a RAID controller, though I have a general idea
what the differences are between the different levels of RAID.

The short story is that there isnt really any point in RAID
with personal desktop systems unless money is no object
and you only care about convenience, in which case a full
hotswap RAID5 system is the only way to go, at a higher
price than the personal desktop system that its being used on.

Something less than that is generally all thats really required,
particularly fully automatic backups with something like V2i
Protector with a bit more work required on a hard drive failure.

Few personal desktop system really need the very high
uptimes that RAID5 provides, at a very significant cost.

Shouldn't I be able to daisy-chain my SATA drives?

Nope, SATA is basically one drive per cable.

I have two SATA ports, but how many SATA
drives could I have attached to them?

Basically 2.

And, I understand that some levels of RAID require identical hard drives,

Not really.

though I don't remember exactly which ones do (RAID 5,
I'm pretty sure, but I'm not sure whether 1+0 or 0+1 does).

Its more complicated than that, but the detail doesnt really
matter when RAID isnt really viable for personal desktop systems.

I regret that I can no longer hold out any hope for my old FIC AZ-11
motherboard. It's time to pull the plug. My hopes were raised when I
realized that my old 30-Gig Seagate would only work in that machine,

Dont believe it.

but now I find that the system cannot reliably access the DVD-ROM
drive. It had been chewing up clusters on my hard drives when I
ordered my new motherboard. BTW, it doesn't work any better
now that I've removed the IDE removable bay from it.

It could be something as basic as lumpy capacitors on that
motherboard. Those are the usually black or blue plastic
coated posts sticking up from the motherboard vertically.
If they look lumpy or have leaked, its likely the problem.

I'm looking for a cheap motherboard that can
support my Duron 800 and PC133 memory.

What is the point ?

I assume those chips are still good.

You cant assume that with the cpu.

Linux won't be easy to marginalize.

Its a fart in the bath as far as MS concerned. You watch.

I'll hold you to that.

Plenty have for years now. They've all got egg on their faces now.

There may be a pitched battle coming,

Nope, Its a fart in the bath as far as MS concerned.

but I really don't see Linux going any direction but up.

Sure, but it will always be a fart in the bath as far as MS is concerned.

When even the might of IBM got done like a dinner,
Linux doesnt have a hope in hell of damaging MS.