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Unreally Lucky HDD



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 11th 18, 09:27 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
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Default Unreally Lucky HDD

Slammed a few times the past couple days with fast black/brownouts.
Not sure if that exacerbated my HDD, which I'd run diagnostics and
begun a few months ago to suspect for a fault.

Seagate 2T HDD with probably going on 10 years usage. Diagnostic
software "red alerts" prompted me to clear off another 2T, a Samsung,
and lay down a very concise backup -- also where I already had a
backup, but much too sloppy then to be other than painful to
reconstruct from now.

Good deal. All but for around 40GBytes new data, on the Seagate, when
it really puked this morning over, again of late and more of
inconsistencies, by way of tossing back a chkdsk "dirty-bit flag" from
a couple days' power-dip slam-&-dunks. Normal, figure, as I'm not
interested in a UPS, not at all. Drives and components can take it,
more or less, if it isn't too hazardous a power environ. (Or a lot
more than actually do would be operating from a home UPS.)

Back to that 40GB...which is a pretty sad story. Real tear-jerker how
chkdsk wants to totally rearrange the Seagate, censoring out
directories and whatever else due to sundry errors - file & directory
related. That's just the way they do what they do, I suppose. Just
like I had a rebuild on the Samsung ready and prior. In the nick of
time, more like. I'm getting that 40GB back, the Ureally Lucky part
-- [heh finished the second I wrote "part" for, excuse me, 52GB] --
through an external 3.5" docking station, manually copying what I
managed to identify through a drive-comparator program [for data
differences]. Got all that recent data copied back for an addendum to
Samsung now.

The way the HDD was locking out on the computer was a No-Go;- even
failed a couple times to be picked up by the OS (not the BIOS,
thankfully). A docking station was simpler for cycling off and on
power a dozen or more times while copying between drive, totally-hosed
lockups.

Time to buy another 2T HDD - just not Seagate. I'll probably get
Western Digital. I'm not sure which I trust more between a Seagate
and Samsung, although for a fair share and sense of luck it's "OK" to
say Western Digital will be the first choice. Rather I'll go lazy and
join the pack, where Western Digital rules Amazon's marketing user
review feedback stats;- expensive or not HDDs subject to IT review
sites for longevity standings is also considerate if not smart[er],
just not as lazy.

My 2T drives that are crammed, also, with maybe 50GB remaining free;-
I expect to be adding another 1T drive before long to supplement this
2T.
  #2  
Old June 11th 18, 09:43 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
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Posts: 2,047
Default Unreally Lucky HDD

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 16:27:42 -0400, Flasherly
wrote:

....Slammed

-
Oh, yeah, when I did that 'concise' backup on the Seagate after the
software diagnostics flagged it for red, I also said majikal
incantations and passed it through smoke a couple times. Then I
reformatted the Seagate, copying, twice, everything that went on the
Samsung back to the Seagate. For good measure. Bad in this case, as
Seagate is saying -- "We're plumb fresh out of luck for you".
  #3  
Old June 12th 18, 07:30 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
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Default Unreally Lucky HDD

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 16:43:56 -0400, Flasherly
wrote:


WD Blue 2TB - WD20EZRZ

Around a dozen or less models for considering a 2 or 1 warranty. The
mood is a little different since I last bought a HDD. For one, nobody
wants to go the extra distance on a warranty. It's on your money to
make a claim, and, in the case of WD, best initially run a drive
serial# by them to see if the seller abided for a product actually
covered by the manufacturer. WD "new" OEM drives WD won't honor with
a replacement drive. Still, you do get to play the game of different
shipping schedules for businesses and consumers with FEDEX or UPS,
which may be stipulated as well a condition on the warranty. Why
drive across town for a USPS and $6 shipping, non-insured, when you
have to grease the hands of FEDEX/UPS charging $14 more than nearer $6
business schedule rates.

I quit shipping anywhere anyway when the rates changed into a big
blow-up inconvenience years ago, in trying to look forward to
bypassing that event when possible with other provided options.

Amazon is selling the WD through its own in-house channels, meaning
their hardcore incentive for marketing allure with a standard 30-day
free return on defective merchandise. And 8000 reviews, half of them
asking if it'll work on some Joe-Blow branded PC assembly, like Compaq
or HP -- an unstated standard, 'we'll stick you with a 15% surcharge
if you try acting like a numbskull for your reason for the return'.
Still I sometimes wonder how much dumber can 8000 aggregate reviews go
across 10 or 15, locked into a page, and numbered sequentially in a
push-button row for anality's sake beneath.

Huge difference in a diminished field of reviews between Newegg and
Amazon these days;- the former exhibits more sedentary approach across
equally dissatisfied customers: a fifth to a quarter who, for some
reason or another, will never buy XYZ HDD brand in their lifetime, to
be sure, ever again. No free shipping returns or lunches on NewEgg,
though, or anybody else, mostly, for nearer than not to wholesale
prices.

No doubt among correlations to business modeling from Gordon Moore...
1) Once it goes up 2) then it comes down.

Except to keep the prices interesting, business wise, Gordon has been
expanded upon -- a lot. In fact he's becoming obsolescent, according
to the plan. Smaller pieces of technological cookie-crumble and more
of business as usual these days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law

So much for any earlier visions by now to move to indestructible SSD
prices plummeting into the earth's core. Backing up in 2T SSD
redundancy is not about $1000, not when the 2T mechanical drive I
bought can be configured for 3T for one-fifth the price in addition to
a 2T config. Suspiciously looks like where a 8TByte HDD, along with a
snatch for luck it won't crash and burn, begins making bunches of
sense in a big hurry.
  #4  
Old June 12th 18, 08:23 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
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Posts: 772
Default Unreally Lucky HDD

Flasherly wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 16:43:56 -0400, Flasherly
wrote:


WD Blue 2TB - WD20EZRZ

Around a dozen or less models for considering a 2 or 1 warranty. The
mood is a little different since I last bought a HDD. For one, nobody
wants to go the extra distance on a warranty. It's on your money to
make a claim, and, in the case of WD, best initially run a drive
serial# by them to see if the seller abided for a product actually
covered by the manufacturer. WD "new" OEM drives WD won't honor with
a replacement drive. Still, you do get to play the game of different
shipping schedules for businesses and consumers with FEDEX or UPS,
which may be stipulated as well a condition on the warranty. Why
drive across town for a USPS and $6 shipping, non-insured, when you
have to grease the hands of FEDEX/UPS charging $14 more than nearer $6
business schedule rates.

I quit shipping anywhere anyway when the rates changed into a big
blow-up inconvenience years ago, in trying to look forward to
bypassing that event when possible with other provided options.

Amazon is selling the WD through its own in-house channels, meaning
their hardcore incentive for marketing allure with a standard 30-day
free return on defective merchandise. And 8000 reviews, half of them
asking if it'll work on some Joe-Blow branded PC assembly, like Compaq
or HP -- an unstated standard, 'we'll stick you with a 15% surcharge
if you try acting like a numbskull for your reason for the return'.
Still I sometimes wonder how much dumber can 8000 aggregate reviews go
across 10 or 15, locked into a page, and numbered sequentially in a
push-button row for anality's sake beneath.

Huge difference in a diminished field of reviews between Newegg and
Amazon these days;- the former exhibits more sedentary approach across
equally dissatisfied customers: a fifth to a quarter who, for some
reason or another, will never buy XYZ HDD brand in their lifetime, to
be sure, ever again. No free shipping returns or lunches on NewEgg,
though, or anybody else, mostly, for nearer than not to wholesale
prices.

No doubt among correlations to business modeling from Gordon Moore...
1) Once it goes up 2) then it comes down.

Except to keep the prices interesting, business wise, Gordon has been
expanded upon -- a lot. In fact he's becoming obsolescent, according
to the plan. Smaller pieces of technological cookie-crumble and more
of business as usual these days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law

So much for any earlier visions by now to move to indestructible SSD
prices plummeting into the earth's core. Backing up in 2T SSD
redundancy is not about $1000, not when the 2T mechanical drive I
bought can be configured for 3T for one-fifth the price in addition to
a 2T config. Suspiciously looks like where a 8TByte HDD, along with a
snatch for luck it won't crash and burn, begins making bunches of
sense in a big hurry.


There are some shingled Seagates for sale now,
and you definitely don't want to buy those.

The trick is to find a datasheet with a platter
count. If the platter count is too low, that's
a shingled drive. I think you might be able to
get 2TB on one platter that way. One of the
other hints, is the shingled drives ship in a
0.8" high housing, rather than a regular 1.0"
high housing.

I don't know if WDC has done this yet or not.

The cheapest, smallest SSDs are a good deal,
but there's nothing quite yet which is
cheap enough for bulk storage. Just last week,
some QLC flash products were introduced, where
1TB is stored in a single chip, and it's possible
to get a 4TB SSD on a half-sized PCB (as only four
chips are needed). Those are based on QLC flash,
which has fewer than 1000 write cycles per cell.
There was no price stated, so no way of knowing
at the moment, whether that will drop below $1000
or not.

Paul
  #5  
Old June 12th 18, 03:53 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
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Posts: 2,047
Default Unreally Lucky HDD

On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 03:23:01 -0400, Paul
wrote:

There are some shingled Seagates for sale now,
and you definitely don't want to buy those.

The trick is to find a datasheet with a platter
count. If the platter count is too low, that's
a shingled drive. I think you might be able to
get 2TB on one platter that way. One of the
other hints, is the shingled drives ship in a
0.8" high housing, rather than a regular 1.0"
high housing.

I don't know if WDC has done this yet or not.

The cheapest, smallest SSDs are a good deal,
but there's nothing quite yet which is
cheap enough for bulk storage. Just last week,
some QLC flash products were introduced, where
1TB is stored in a single chip, and it's possible
to get a 4TB SSD on a half-sized PCB (as only four
chips are needed). Those are based on QLC flash,
which has fewer than 1000 write cycles per cell.
There was no price stated, so no way of knowing
at the moment, whether that will drop below $1000
or not.
Paul


And why not ... can it be so bad? As technology, although
Shingled/Perpendicular is, to me, particular now to your mention, it
seems make sense. Perhaps physically a little less, maybe more with
some coffee and further reading on design and implementation SMR
technology. More than sense, it's rather intriguing -- there's a sort
of freshness to this HGST model, hermetically sealed platters in
helium, weirdly enough, weirdly esoteric targeted applications, such
as characteristically applied to denizens on the North Pole:
https://techreport.com/news/27031/sh...0tb-hard-drive
(With, oh dear, heat-assisted writing slated around the corner and for
a future release on the "burner".)

One promising enterprising feature for having already indicated a
relatively huge storage density, positioned in consequence to a lowest
market rung among a consumer-class consideration, is already what
appears to be considerable commotion to a broader business reception
for these trends. As if scanning across these title blurbs for
perhaps forgone hints on subscription-only read indeed suggests. . .
https://www.digitimes.com/tag/hdd/001755.html

As well, that water will inevitably seek its own level seems as
natural as gifted to a people for a general accessibility to any
'trickle down effect'. I'm probably really "living it up" with this
2T selection, same as all the rest I've bought for the past decade,
mostly 2T-class drives or close. That being sooner, than later, may
be increasingly less a reason why larger multiples of storage are
naught for other than a prime directive.

If anything aside from less allure, magnitudes of speed given SSDs
isn't quite the feature it perhaps once was, in a manner of
convenience so to suggest;- although, despite yet having to dip low
into a noname branded stock, I still do commend the notion or reserve
involatility lends over mechanical storage.
  #6  
Old June 12th 18, 04:23 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
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Posts: 2,047
Default Unreally Lucky HDD

On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 10:53:36 -0400, Flasherly
wrote:

O&BTW & regarding DPC latency. I suspect deferring to that site
article on driver implementation for discrepancies, in no way was
adequate to what, actually, I was experiencing with 10-yrs' usage from
my gravely maimed 2T Seagate. Although I yet haven't pressed limits
to near-realtime extremities, 10 or below millisecond buffered sound
playback options, the Samsung 2T replacement, perhaps additionally a
faster 7200RPM class drive, is operating without any indications of
prior hitches across some heavily processed and modulated sound
staging. So far from a 50 millisecond setting, (somewhat unheard of
for the Seagate), which eventually can be pressed to further limits
while bringing into play more demanding processing stages -- I've in
mind a 4-band filter tied to a tube-rectified amp model, which hasn't
a clue between 8 cores what's going on, that will likely bring machine
DPC latency crashing down.
  #7  
Old June 12th 18, 06:41 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Larc[_3_]
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Posts: 337
Default Unreally Lucky HDD

On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 03:23:01 -0400, Paul wrote:

| There are some shingled Seagates for sale now,
| and you definitely don't want to buy those.
|
| The trick is to find a datasheet with a platter
| count. If the platter count is too low, that's
| a shingled drive. I think you might be able to
| get 2TB on one platter that way. One of the
| other hints, is the shingled drives ship in a
| 0.8" high housing, rather than a regular 1.0"
| high housing.
|
| I don't know if WDC has done this yet or not.

I assume not since all the WD 3.5" internal HDDs are 1.028" high.

Larc
  #8  
Old June 12th 18, 08:12 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Charlie Hoffpauir
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Posts: 322
Default Unreally Lucky HDD

On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 13:41:21 -0400, Larc
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 03:23:01 -0400, Paul wrote:

| There are some shingled Seagates for sale now,
| and you definitely don't want to buy those.
|
| The trick is to find a datasheet with a platter
| count. If the platter count is too low, that's
| a shingled drive. I think you might be able to
| get 2TB on one platter that way. One of the
| other hints, is the shingled drives ship in a
| 0.8" high housing, rather than a regular 1.0"
| high housing.
|
| I don't know if WDC has done this yet or not.

I assume not since all the WD 3.5" internal HDDs are 1.028" high.

Larc

Thanks for this thread! I had not heard of "shingled" drives, ao I
googled it and got the explanation. Seems my 4.0 TB Seagate that I use
for backing up all my data is shingled (based on the fact that it
appears to be about 2/3 the thickness of a normal HDD). So far I
haven't had any problem with it. But if it suddenly craters, I'll have
lost about half my backups.(The other half is split between a 3 TB and
a 1.5 TB drive).
  #9  
Old June 12th 18, 08:26 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
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Default Unreally Lucky HDD

Charlie Hoffpauir wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 13:41:21 -0400, Larc
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 03:23:01 -0400, Paul wrote:

| There are some shingled Seagates for sale now,
| and you definitely don't want to buy those.
|
| The trick is to find a datasheet with a platter
| count. If the platter count is too low, that's
| a shingled drive. I think you might be able to
| get 2TB on one platter that way. One of the
| other hints, is the shingled drives ship in a
| 0.8" high housing, rather than a regular 1.0"
| high housing.
|
| I don't know if WDC has done this yet or not.

I assume not since all the WD 3.5" internal HDDs are 1.028" high.

Larc

Thanks for this thread! I had not heard of "shingled" drives, ao I
googled it and got the explanation. Seems my 4.0 TB Seagate that I use
for backing up all my data is shingled (based on the fact that it
appears to be about 2/3 the thickness of a normal HDD). So far I
haven't had any problem with it. But if it suddenly craters, I'll have
lost about half my backups.(The other half is split between a 3 TB and
a 1.5 TB drive).


The only reason I "have a hate-on" for shingled drives,
is they're *not* labeled as such. These things
should be clearly labeled. Everyone wins, when
seller and buyer are honest with one another.

I don't like having to use supposition and reading
customers reviews to determine "kinda/maybe" an
item is shingled.

The original shingled drives would read at 200MB/sec
and write at 25MB/sec. Write performance was "uneven".

Shingled drives write 7 tracks in sequence. That's
seven rotations of the spindle, rather than a head
assembly with "7 coils on it".

If you need to change a 4KB sector on a shingled
drive, it's a read-modify-write. You read seven tracks,
changes a paltry 4KB section, and write the seven tracks
back. There is a slightly larger gap between one seven-track
cluster, and the next.

The current generation of shingled drives read at
200MB/sec and write at 200MB/sec. But, it's not clear
what write patterns are going to "bust" the clever
caching methods used to make this possible.

For my own disk usage, I want predictable and
consistent performance. Even in my backup drives.
This is why I cannot offer an endorsement for
shingled drives, as long as they're doing
read-modify-write of seven tracks at a time.
While their HDTune sustained might look fine,
I'm sure there's some write pattern that
will make drives like that "take a flake vacation".

Paul
  #10  
Old June 13th 18, 01:14 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
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Posts: 2,047
Default Unreally Lucky HDD

On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 15:26:58 -0400, Paul
wrote:

The only reason I "have a hate-on" for shingled drives,
is they're *not* labeled as such. These things
should be clearly labeled. Everyone wins, when
seller and buyer are honest with one another.


Not after reading sometime ago of an end-effect to enduser reactions
in an unrelated capacity.

Western Digital, probably, but applies no less equally across the
board.

The reactionary issue is one of identifiable characteristics the
customer deems substandard or unacceptable to a performance aim
promoted by the manufacturer.

Wait a minute, remarks a whole of the research from a technological
labs facilities of the corporate entity, who exactly are you, peon,
thus to say?

Not I, au contraire, remarks the person, but for a representative of a
popular front: Le Suprême and High Class Action Lawsuit.

Fine then, says Western Digital, we get it

Western Digital's next edition production runs are then physically
modified to be indistinctly similar and unidentifiable for purposes of
labeling.

Out of sight problem solvers, evidently.
 




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