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#21
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Johannes H Andersen wrote:
Bagpuss wrote: On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:05:21 +0000, Johannes H Andersen wrote: We're talking about TV cards here. Presumably TVLA have wised up to such card as they certainly can be considered as TV receiving equipment. Hence a computer dealer selling TV cards *is* selling TV equipment and in that sense also a TV dealer. This has nothing to do with whether the said equipment is installed to receive TV or not, this is the buyers problem. Hence a TV licence for the buyer of the TV card is only required if he installs and uses the TV card. If he installs the card, then this is a gray area since the only rational reason for installing the card would to use it at some point for receiving TV, otherwise why install it in the first place. From what I recall they were trying to push a requirement of all computer vendors who sell PCs with "broadband" adapters to register too. Yes, this seems completely out of order to me. How far down that road do you go? Someone buying electronic components: transistors, resistors and capacitors could in principle build a TV tuner, so are these components also TV receiving equipment? Of course not. The difference is that the TV card comes complete with instructions to install and receive TV channels. The broadband adapter does not. In any case, the registering by the dealer does not necessarily mean that a TV license is required, but it is part of their intimidation. I suppose the next stage is a licence to have filings as people have been know to pick up radio via fillings. :-) I have just terminated my TV license by end of January. I thought that it was poor value and needed to save up some money, so I'm taking a TV pause. In any case, I'm allowed to choose what I spend my money on. You have to explicitly terminate the licence, otherwise they will automatically backdate it next time you apply for a new licence. This is one of their little known tricks they're allowed to do. (See small print on the licence application). Hmmm, but at least they can't fine/prosecute you for failing to inform them like the DVLA (as per my reply to Bagpuss). I expect the invisible van to come round any time soon, so I have no intentions of any sneak viewing, but I expect to be harassed a bit. |
#22
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In article , Craven Birds
writes Absolute rubbish! There is no obligation, because whilst not in a computer it cannot receive a TV signal! Quote: "If you use or install television receiving equipment to receive or record television programme services you are required by law to have a valid TV Licence." Does this apply if you install a TV/FM card for listening to FM radio but never to view TV? Alternatively... If you install a TV/FM card and plug into it an FM aerial but not a TV aerial, is this covered by "install television receiving equipment"? -- Tom |
#23
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On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:02:05 +0000, Mike Scott
k wrote: On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:22:24 +0000, Bagpuss wrote: On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 09:08:16 +0000, Mike Scott k wrote: On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 01:13:16 +0000, Johannes H Andersen wrote: ... Hence a TV licence for the buyer of the TV card is only required if he installs and uses the TV card. If he installs the card, then this is a gray area since the only rational reason for installing the card would to use it at some point for receiving TV, otherwise why install it in the first place. Umm, to connect a security camera to? But do you need a TV decoder to do this? The problem is the decoder It's easy and cards are cheap. Yep, so is a TV (well 2nd hand from a junk shop or papers) but it still means you need a licence, Just a theoretical observation - I do use the card for teletext reception anyway so need a licence. Its the capability of the card not the usage that is what they care about. You don't get a discount if you have the TV switched off for a week, sadly. bit to pick up and decode the TV signals. Its OK to have a monitor feed ro the like which is used for closed circuit cameras. In that case you should be using a video capture card not a TV decoder if you don't want them at the door. Even then they will still insist on harrasing you. They seem at times to go on the "you don't have a licenence then you must be watching TV illegally". A friend of mine got taken to court for not having a TV licence for a broken TV. He didn't have a licence becuase he couldn't afford to repair/replace the TV so thought there was no point in buying a licence for a non functioning device. Thankfully IIRC it got thrown out of court [1]. I do btw now have a TV and licence. But I was rather embarrassed some years ago, when we didn't have a TV (or computer) (yes, some people do live that way :-) ). I had one of the "you're unlicensed" threatening letters, which arrived a week before we actually went out to buy a TV. I still wonder whether the ptb (powers that be - a new tla? :-) ) thought we'd been bludgeoned into becoming legal! Oh I bet they probably did. |
#24
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On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:10:31 +0000, Parish wrote:
Bagpuss wrote: On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:05:21 +0000, Johannes H Andersen wrote: We're talking about TV cards here. Presumably TVLA have wised up to such card as they certainly can be considered as TV receiving equipment. Hence a computer dealer selling TV cards *is* selling TV equipment and in that sense also a TV dealer. This has nothing to do with whether the said equipment is installed to receive TV or not, this is the buyers problem. Hence a TV licence for the buyer of the TV card is only required if he installs and uses the TV card. If he installs the card, then this is a gray area since the only rational reason for installing the card would to use it at some point for receiving TV, otherwise why install it in the first place. From what I recall they were trying to push a requirement of all computer vendors who sell PCs with "broadband" adapters to register too. Yes, this seems completely out of order to me. How far down that road do you go? Someone buying electronic components: transistors, resistors and capacitors could in principle build a TV tuner, so are these components also TV receiving equipment? Of course not. The difference is that the TV card comes complete with instructions to install and receive TV channels. The broadband adapter does not. In any case, the registering by the dealer does not necessarily mean that a TV license is required, but it is part of their intimidation. I suppose the next stage is a licence to have filings as people have been know to pick up radio via fillings. :-) I hope no-one in the Govt. is reading this thread or it may well happen ;-) Sadly, this is just another example of this, and previous, Govts. coming up with ever more ways to screw money out of us (aka Stealth Tax). The DVLA is even worse than TV Licensing. We all know that, with a few exceptions, if you use a motor vehicle on the public roads then you need a valid tax disk, but now since SORN was introduced 10(?) years ago you are committing an offence if you don't tell the DVLA that you are not using your vehicle on the road. Obviously this is to aid the DVLA and Police target those who are using unlicensed vehicles but it, potentially, turns law-abiding citizens into criminals. Even worse you now have to tell them every year that its off the road. Even after selling on a m/cycle to a frien we are getting tax renewal notices on a bike that has been off the road for 7 years. The stupid thing is that its been off the road since before you needed the anual renewal of the SORN. Once we moved address they started pestering us for an anual form even though its was just a change of address. Its a PITA. What next, you have to fill in a form, under pain of prosecution and a £1000 fine, stating that you don't/no longer have TV receiving eqipment? Heh I guess you read the other fork of the thread. I guess with enough back dating they could get that out of you. I expect they would love this to come into place though. |
#25
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"Tom Ruben" wrote in message ... In article , Craven Birds writes Absolute rubbish! There is no obligation, because whilst not in a computer it cannot receive a TV signal! Quote: "If you use or install television receiving equipment to receive or record television programme services you are required by law to have a valid TV Licence." Does this apply if you install a TV/FM card for listening to FM radio but never to view TV? Alternatively... If you install a TV/FM card and plug into it an FM aerial but not a TV aerial, is this covered by "install television receiving equipment"? -- Tom No Its a licence to use a receiver. Whether you watch any Broadcasts is immaterial. |
#26
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Bagpuss wrote:
On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:10:31 +0000, Parish wrote: Bagpuss wrote: On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:05:21 +0000, Johannes H Andersen wrote: We're talking about TV cards here. Presumably TVLA have wised up to such card as they certainly can be considered as TV receiving equipment. Hence a computer dealer selling TV cards *is* selling TV equipment and in that sense also a TV dealer. This has nothing to do with whether the said equipment is installed to receive TV or not, this is the buyers problem. Hence a TV licence for the buyer of the TV card is only required if he installs and uses the TV card. If he installs the card, then this is a gray area since the only rational reason for installing the card would to use it at some point for receiving TV, otherwise why install it in the first place. From what I recall they were trying to push a requirement of all computer vendors who sell PCs with "broadband" adapters to register too. Yes, this seems completely out of order to me. How far down that road do you go? Someone buying electronic components: transistors, resistors and capacitors could in principle build a TV tuner, so are these components also TV receiving equipment? Of course not. The difference is that the TV card comes complete with instructions to install and receive TV channels. The broadband adapter does not. In any case, the registering by the dealer does not necessarily mean that a TV license is required, but it is part of their intimidation. I suppose the next stage is a licence to have filings as people have been know to pick up radio via fillings. :-) I hope no-one in the Govt. is reading this thread or it may well happen ;-) Sadly, this is just another example of this, and previous, Govts. coming up with ever more ways to screw money out of us (aka Stealth Tax). The DVLA is even worse than TV Licensing. We all know that, with a few exceptions, if you use a motor vehicle on the public roads then you need a valid tax disk, but now since SORN was introduced 10(?) years ago you are committing an offence if you don't tell the DVLA that you are not using your vehicle on the road. Obviously this is to aid the DVLA and Police target those who are using unlicensed vehicles but it, potentially, turns law-abiding citizens into criminals. Even worse you now have to tell them every year that its off the road. I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me. Even after selling on a m/cycle to a frien we are getting tax renewal notices on a bike that has been off the road for 7 years. The stupid thing is that its been off the road since before you needed the anual renewal of the SORN. Once we moved address they started pestering us for an anual form even though its was just a change of address. Its a PITA. The worst case of this beaurocratic (sp?) terrorism that I've come across was from a former colleague of mine. A neighbour of his in his late 50's/early 60's was disabled and unable to work due to have had a large sectin of his stomach etc. removed due to cancer. He had a beat-up old Robin Reliant (which he needed as his wife was riddled with arthritis) that he only managed to keep on the road because my colleague, who enjoyed "tinkering" with cars, kept it running and MOT'd using bits from scrapyards. This bloke then contracted Tuberculosis, which is serious enough anyway but with his health it was even more so. During the months it took him to recover, mostly in hospital, the tax ran out on his car and ultimately he got a SORN "fine". He was in no fit state to deal with it and his wife, who knew nothing about these things, panicked when she got a letter "from the Government" saying, in essence, "give us £20 or we'll take you to court and fine you £1000" and paid the £20 which they could ill afford. When she showed the letter to my colleague (who was on holiday when it arrived) he 'phoned the DVLA to explain the mitigating circumstances but was told that she should have contacted them when the letter arrived and they would have almost certainly waived the fine but that whilst they sympathized they had no system in place to refund the money. Good to know that the Govt. looks after you when your old and/or inform, isn't it? What next, you have to fill in a form, under pain of prosecution and a £1000 fine, stating that you don't/no longer have TV receiving eqipment? Heh I guess you read the other fork of the thread. I guess with enough back dating they could get that out of you. I expect they would love this to come into place though. |
#27
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Tom Ruben wrote:
In article , Craven Birds writes Absolute rubbish! There is no obligation, because whilst not in a computer it cannot receive a TV signal! Quote: "If you use or install television receiving equipment to receive or record television programme services you are required by law to have a valid TV Licence." Does this apply if you install a TV/FM card for listening to FM radio but never to view TV? Alternatively... If you install a TV/FM card and plug into it an FM aerial but not a TV aerial, is this covered by "install television receiving equipment"? I would expect so, after all that is the same as having a TV that you only use for watching videos - you still need a licence. ISTR there have been people who've tried that one in the past, even being able to prove that the RF circuitry doesn't work. Perhaps on of the electrical/electronic gurus here can answer this. On the TV Licensing website (click DETECTION, TV Detector Vans) it says: "We can detect a TV in use, in any area. That's because every TV contains a component called the 'local oscillator', which emits a signal when the television is switched on. It's this signal that the equipment on our vans picks up." Now, is this local oscillator signal emitted from the set itself, or from the aerial? If it's the former then a TV card in a PC (as opposed to an external USB jobbie) would be undetectable because (modern) PC cases are EMC/RFI shielded. |
#28
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Parish wrote: Tom Ruben wrote: In article , Craven Birds writes Absolute rubbish! There is no obligation, because whilst not in a computer it cannot receive a TV signal! Quote: "If you use or install television receiving equipment to receive or record television programme services you are required by law to have a valid TV Licence." Does this apply if you install a TV/FM card for listening to FM radio but never to view TV? Alternatively... If you install a TV/FM card and plug into it an FM aerial but not a TV aerial, is this covered by "install television receiving equipment"? I would expect so, after all that is the same as having a TV that you only use for watching videos - you still need a licence. ISTR there have been people who've tried that one in the past, even being able to prove that the RF circuitry doesn't work. Perhaps on of the electrical/electronic gurus here can answer this. On the TV Licensing website (click DETECTION, TV Detector Vans) it says: "We can detect a TV in use, in any area. That's because every TV contains a component called the 'local oscillator', which emits a signal when the television is switched on. It's this signal that the equipment on our vans picks up." Now, is this local oscillator signal emitted from the set itself, or from the aerial? If it's the former then a TV card in a PC (as opposed to an external USB jobbie) would be undetectable because (modern) PC cases are EMC/RFI shielded. The local osc frequency is characteristic for the channel received. In the super heterodyne receiver principle, the local osc frequency is the received frequency minus a fixed amount. Since the local oscillator is close to the input stage, the signal may leak across into the TV antenna. Their equipment is presumably highly sensitive and selectively tuned. The short detection distances also makes things much easier. This is in contrast to RF interference where the signal has to break a barrier of filters. Given that they probably have unlimited resources for the equipment they use, I can very well imagine that they are able to pick up the local oscillator signal from a PC card. |
#29
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On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:48:38 +0000, Tom Ruben
wrote: In article , Craven Birds writes Absolute rubbish! There is no obligation, because whilst not in a computer it cannot receive a TV signal! Quote: "If you use or install television receiving equipment to receive or record television programme services you are required by law to have a valid TV Licence." Does this apply if you install a TV/FM card for listening to FM radio but never to view TV? Alternatively... If you install a TV/FM card and plug into it an FM aerial but not a TV aerial, is this covered by "install television receiving equipment"? AFAIK, yes as you are in ownership of working equipment capable of picking up a TV signal. Its much the same as owning a TV and not switching it on then saying its OK as you don't watch TV. |
#30
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On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 16:04:10 +0000, Johannes H Andersen
wrote: Parish wrote: Tom Ruben wrote: In article , Craven Birds writes Absolute rubbish! There is no obligation, because whilst not in a computer it cannot receive a TV signal! Quote: "If you use or install television receiving equipment to receive or record television programme services you are required by law to have a valid TV Licence." Does this apply if you install a TV/FM card for listening to FM radio but never to view TV? Alternatively... If you install a TV/FM card and plug into it an FM aerial but not a TV aerial, is this covered by "install television receiving equipment"? I would expect so, after all that is the same as having a TV that you only use for watching videos - you still need a licence. ISTR there have been people who've tried that one in the past, even being able to prove that the RF circuitry doesn't work. Perhaps on of the electrical/electronic gurus here can answer this. On the TV Licensing website (click DETECTION, TV Detector Vans) it says: "We can detect a TV in use, in any area. That's because every TV contains a component called the 'local oscillator', which emits a signal when the television is switched on. It's this signal that the equipment on our vans picks up." Now, is this local oscillator signal emitted from the set itself, or from the aerial? If it's the former then a TV card in a PC (as opposed to an external USB jobbie) would be undetectable because (modern) PC cases are EMC/RFI shielded. Modern cases are not that well shielded at all. The local osc frequency is characteristic for the channel received. In the super heterodyne receiver principle, the local osc frequency is the received frequency minus a fixed amount. Since the local oscillator is close to the input stage, the signal may leak across into the TV antenna. Their equipment is presumably highly sensitive and selectively tuned. The short detection distances also makes things much easier. This is in contrast to RF interference where the signal has to break a barrier of filters. Given that they probably have unlimited resources for the equipment they use, I can very well imagine that they are able to pick up the local oscillator signal from a PC card. AFAIK yes, the local oscillator is around 39mHz IIRC, that is what is picked up by the detector units. Of course the first hit is just to check all houses without a licence and barrarge them with scare letters. |
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