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#11
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RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?
On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:29:02 GMT) it happened
(The little lost angel) wrote in : On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:28:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: The issue is, you can easily record these HDTV streams, it is only 12Mbits / second here, but the H264 encoded movies will not playback on a simple PC, you would need either a (currently) high end graphics card with H264 acceleration (ATI 600$ and up), and then upgrade to PCI express for these cards... And to a better processor, and H264 needs equivalent of dual P4 3.2 GHz without acceleration, so then you do not need that card.... The other catch is everything is going to HDMI interface with the monitors. Can I question this part? I am quite sure my friend played back a H264 HDTV clip on my laptop a few weeks back. It was a couple of hundred MB for just a few minutes worth of a MTV (I'll try to check with him if I catch him). I certainly don't consider my 1.7Ghz laptop anywhere near the equivalent of a Dual P4 3.2Ghz with a hardware accelerated H264 graphics. So without the neeed for a new platform, I think a relatively entry level PC will do the trick of being a Linux based server/media center and even game machine. OK, but I am talking about these kind of streams: -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 7797010432 Jan 8 16:01 tps_hd_demo_90_min.ts Stream #0.0, 50.00 fps(r): Video: h264, yuv420p, 1920x1088 That I play this way: cat tps_hd_demo_90_min.ts | super_demux -t 120 | ffplay -stats -f h264 - and then does about 3fps on a Duron 950.... This is 12Mbit / second HD TV as transmitted here in Europe via the Astra 1 satellite by TPS (Free to air demo). As you can see 90 minutes (with sound) is 8GByte, easily recorded at that speed, but not so easily played on a cheap box 9no tat all). Here is some reference to the required processor speed: http://www.knc1.com/ click on the 'hier' link to get to the software requirements for that card. -- A Lost Angel, fallen from heaven Lost in dreams, Lost in aspirations, Lost to the world, Lost to myself |
#12
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RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?
On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:12:59 -0500) it happened Yousuf Khan
wrote in : The little lost angel wrote: Can I question this part? I am quite sure my friend played back a H264 HDTV clip on my laptop a few weeks back. It was a couple of hundred MB for just a few minutes worth of a MTV (I'll try to check with him if I catch him). I certainly don't consider my 1.7Ghz laptop anywhere near the equivalent of a Dual P4 3.2Ghz with a hardware accelerated H264 graphics. As usual, there is a vast difference in the amount of power it takes to encode it vs. to decode it. Jan was talking about using it as a PVR kind of project. Yousuf Khan No no, I was purely referring to *decoding* of the HD H264 stream. You will find ATI has come out with some high end card (with Radeon 520 ASIC) like for example the FX1800 (I think it is called) to make this playback possible. Without hardware acceleration it is not feasable even on a medium speed processor. So in 1920 x 1080 @50 fps as is now HDTV standard here. |
#13
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RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?
Jan Panteltje wrote:
No no, I was purely referring to *decoding* of the HD H264 stream. You will find ATI has come out with some high end card (with Radeon 520 ASIC) like for example the FX1800 (I think it is called) to make this playback possible. Without hardware acceleration it is not feasable even on a medium speed processor. So in 1920 x 1080 @50 fps as is now HDTV standard here. I've run H264 video on my 1.6Ghz Athlon XP 1900+, with no problems. However, it may not have been HD1080 resolution, I guess. Yousuf Khan |
#14
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RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?
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#15
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RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?
Jan Panteltje wrote:
The issue is, you can easily record these HDTV streams, it is only 12Mbits / second here, but the H264 encoded movies will not playback on a simple PC, you would need either a (currently) high end graphics card with H264 acceleration (ATI 600$ and up), and then upgrade to PCI express for these cards... AFAIU, the GeForce 7300 is supposed to support hardware H.264 decode, for less than $100. Will an AGP version be available? I don't know. http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2674 |
#16
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RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:12:59 -0500, Yousuf Khan
wrote: The little lost angel wrote: Can I question this part? I am quite sure my friend played back a H264 HDTV clip on my laptop a few weeks back. It was a couple of hundred MB for just a few minutes worth of a MTV (I'll try to check with him if I catch him). I certainly don't consider my 1.7Ghz laptop anywhere near the equivalent of a Dual P4 3.2Ghz with a hardware accelerated H264 graphics. As usual, there is a vast difference in the amount of power it takes to encode it vs. to decode it. Jan was talking about using it as a PVR kind of project. Hmm, but he was specifically talking about HDTV content which would already be encoded so that processing burden should not be on the computer. Hence my focus on my own memory of that playback experience. -- A Lost Angel, fallen from heaven Lost in dreams, Lost in aspirations, Lost to the world, Lost to myself |
#17
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RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?
The little lost angel wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:12:59 -0500, Yousuf Khan wrote: The little lost angel wrote: Can I question this part? I am quite sure my friend played back a H264 HDTV clip on my laptop a few weeks back. It was a couple of hundred MB for just a few minutes worth of a MTV (I'll try to check with him if I catch him). I certainly don't consider my 1.7Ghz laptop anywhere near the equivalent of a Dual P4 3.2Ghz with a hardware accelerated H264 graphics. As usual, there is a vast difference in the amount of power it takes to encode it vs. to decode it. Jan was talking about using it as a PVR kind of project. Hmm, but he was specifically talking about HDTV content which would already be encoded so that processing burden should not be on the computer. Hence my focus on my own memory of that playback experience. According to AnandTech, H.264 can be taxing: http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2645&p=2 Resolution: 720p Decoder: Quicktime 7 CPU: Athlon 64 3500+ Average use: 53% 1080p is 2.25 times (??) larger than 720p so it seems plausible that an aging Duron cannot decode 1080p in real time. Perhaps the decoders are not fully optimized yet? |
#18
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RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?
On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:30:56 +0100) it happened Grumble
wrote in : Jan Panteltje wrote: The issue is, you can easily record these HDTV streams, it is only 12Mbits / second here, but the H264 encoded movies will not playback on a simple PC, you would need either a (currently) high end graphics card with H264 acceleration (ATI 600$ and up), and then upgrade to PCI express for these cards... AFAIU, the GeForce 7300 is supposed to support hardware H.264 decode, for less than $100. Will an AGP version be available? I don't know. http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2674 Yes, just did a google search for 'GeForce 7300 GS H264' and got 40000 hits .... To the source: http://www.nvidia.com/object/7_series_techspecs.html Chip seems to support AGP, but board? They mention Linux, Nvidia always had closed source drivers for Linux... Cannot get a list of connectors, does it have HDMI? Dunno. I want the play station 3.... already made a decision for myself. Think of all the things those SPE will give you, an example: Long time ago (DR DOS) I had this IR LED on a par port pin. It did send IR codes to start the VCR.. to make it change channels and record. I jumped from DR DOS (and win 3.10) to Linux, but the multi task switching caused delays in the on / off sequence of the LED and it became unreliable. Open sourced it, but no longer used. With those Cell SPEs running free from interrupts and task-switches, lots of real time stuff should be possible (if you can find some IO pin :-) ). It is like having 8 (or 7) embedded processors as assistance. And those graphics cards are power hungry.... In my view (as electronics designer) we have seen the following trend over the last 50 years. Tubes transistors chips LSI (more chips integrated into one) microcomputers (plus IO integrated). The IBM PC system with its plugin boards is reaching its physical limits. It is nice to be able to 'plug in' but the connector of today is Ethernet (maybe 1Gbit). The system to plug in of today is the LAN, connected to the Internet. So it is a 'natural' to make a box with no slots to plug in, but a simple ethernet connector, and put and much on one chip as possible. In the case of Cell, 9 processor cores! plus some shared memory. The consequences will be enormous. Not only will the whole 'PCI card' industry have to change to RJ45..., MS Windows will be out. It may lead to a huge drop in sales for MS, and, as that is a major export and source of income for the US, to a major dive on the world exchanges. We see the end of an era. |
#19
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RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?
On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:58:22 +0100) it happened Grumble
wrote in : The little lost angel wrote: On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:12:59 -0500, Yousuf Khan wrote: The little lost angel wrote: Can I question this part? I am quite sure my friend played back a H264 HDTV clip on my laptop a few weeks back. It was a couple of hundred MB for just a few minutes worth of a MTV (I'll try to check with him if I catch him). I certainly don't consider my 1.7Ghz laptop anywhere near the equivalent of a Dual P4 3.2Ghz with a hardware accelerated H264 graphics. As usual, there is a vast difference in the amount of power it takes to encode it vs. to decode it. Jan was talking about using it as a PVR kind of project. Hmm, but he was specifically talking about HDTV content which would already be encoded so that processing burden should not be on the computer. Hence my focus on my own memory of that playback experience. According to AnandTech, H.264 can be taxing: http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2645&p=2 Resolution: 720p Decoder: Quicktime 7 CPU: Athlon 64 3500+ Average use: 53% 1080p is 2.25 times (??) larger than 720p so it seems plausible that an aging Duron cannot decode 1080p in real time. Perhaps the decoders are not fully optimized yet? 1920x1080 / 720x576 = 5x exactly! (going by screen surface or number of pixels). Not even a recent Athlon can decode 1080p H264 in real time. Only ASICS. That is why they specify Pentium 4 #.2 GHz dual core. I calculated I needed 25 x the Duron 950 speed. (Because the system also has to do other things, display, write to disk, handle interrupts, many task are normally running). |
#20
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RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?
Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:58:22 +0100) it happened Grumble Hmm, but he was specifically talking about HDTV content which would already be encoded so that processing burden should not be on the computer. Hence my focus on my own memory of that playback experience. According to AnandTech, H.264 can be taxing: http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2645&p=2 Resolution: 720p Decoder: Quicktime 7 CPU: Athlon 64 3500+ Average use: 53% 1080p is 2.25 times (??) larger than 720p so it seems plausible that an aging Duron cannot decode 1080p in real time. Perhaps the decoders are not fully optimized yet? 1920x1080 / 720x576 = 5x exactly! The HDTV comparison you're looking for is 1920x1080 / 1280x720. And even that's not right, because there's no source of 1080p, only 1080i. Converting a 1080i source to 1080p requires no processing, only the temporary storage of the alternate scan-lines so that the image can be displayed all at once. So, the REAL comparision, as far as processing power is concerned, is 1920x1080x0.5 / 1280x720, which is very close to being the same thing. Note that the above is a bit over-simplified, but it does correctly illustrate that 720p is really not "easier" than 1080i (or "1080p" derived from 1080i). |
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