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C2 errors and CDR media questions



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 26th 04, 06:57 PM
Kevin McDonough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default C2 errors and CDR media questions

I've been working with a friend to find out the CDR media that work
best with his Marantz CDR-510 Professional. I've got a Plextor
Premium drive and compared the C1/C2 error rates of the copies he made
of Pancho Sanchez's albumn, Papa Gato.

We used four types of CDR media, Fuji, Taiyo Yuden, TDK, and Phillips.
The TDK and Phillips media are audio CDs. I ran a C1/C2/CU test on
all of these including the original. The results are as follows:

--Original, pressed CD--
C1
Avg/Sec: 2.9
Max/Sec: 37
Total: 7,700
C2
N/A

--TDK--
C1
Avg/Sec: 4.2
Max/Sec: 21
Total: 11,125
C2
Avg/Sec: 0
Max/Sec: 1
Total: 3

--Taiyo Yuden--
C1
Avg/Sec: 2
Max/Sec: 31
Total: 5328
C2
Avg/Sec: 0
Max/Sec: 13
Total: 41

--Fuji--
C1
Avg/Sec: 4.4
Max/Sec: 43
Total: 11,808
C2
N/A

--Phillips--
C1
Avg/Sec: 4.1
Max/Sec: 24
Total: 10,932
C2
N/A

I have a couple of questions based on these results. First, I thought
C2 errors mainly came about from environmental factors: fingerprints,
scratches, etc. If I am getting them from a brand new disc, is there
something defective on the surface of the media? I looked at the
bottom of the media and all of them were smudge and defect free (at
least visible to the naked eye).

Secondly, based on these results, which media would you use? Actually,
I should probably run more tests to make a final conclusion. All of
them show an average/sec of C1 errors under 6, which I've heard is
excellent. The Taiyo Yuden had significantly lower number of C1 errors
and the lowest average per second. Yet, this media also had the
highest number of C2 errors.

I know both C1 and C2 errors are correctable, and as a result, all of
these discs are fine, but I am curious as to your thoughts as to
results you are getting with the media you use.
  #2  
Old February 26th 04, 07:28 PM
Dan G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

No C2 errors are acceptable, C1 rates are not very significant.
If you see C2, it's generally due to poor burn/disc quality or excessive
burn speed, or both. C2 errors are correctable only to a point. Personally,
I wouldn't trust any disc that has C2 errors.

"Kevin McDonough" wrote in message
om...
I've been working with a friend to find out the CDR media that work
best with his Marantz CDR-510 Professional. I've got a Plextor
Premium drive and compared the C1/C2 error rates of the copies he made
of Pancho Sanchez's albumn, Papa Gato.

We used four types of CDR media, Fuji, Taiyo Yuden, TDK, and Phillips.
The TDK and Phillips media are audio CDs. I ran a C1/C2/CU test on
all of these including the original. The results are as follows:

--Original, pressed CD--
C1
Avg/Sec: 2.9
Max/Sec: 37
Total: 7,700
C2
N/A

--TDK--
C1
Avg/Sec: 4.2
Max/Sec: 21
Total: 11,125
C2
Avg/Sec: 0
Max/Sec: 1
Total: 3

--Taiyo Yuden--
C1
Avg/Sec: 2
Max/Sec: 31
Total: 5328
C2
Avg/Sec: 0
Max/Sec: 13
Total: 41

--Fuji--
C1
Avg/Sec: 4.4
Max/Sec: 43
Total: 11,808
C2
N/A

--Phillips--
C1
Avg/Sec: 4.1
Max/Sec: 24
Total: 10,932
C2
N/A

I have a couple of questions based on these results. First, I thought
C2 errors mainly came about from environmental factors: fingerprints,
scratches, etc. If I am getting them from a brand new disc, is there
something defective on the surface of the media? I looked at the
bottom of the media and all of them were smudge and defect free (at
least visible to the naked eye).

Secondly, based on these results, which media would you use? Actually,
I should probably run more tests to make a final conclusion. All of
them show an average/sec of C1 errors under 6, which I've heard is
excellent. The Taiyo Yuden had significantly lower number of C1 errors
and the lowest average per second. Yet, this media also had the
highest number of C2 errors.

I know both C1 and C2 errors are correctable, and as a result, all of
these discs are fine, but I am curious as to your thoughts as to
results you are getting with the media you use.



  #3  
Old February 27th 04, 12:32 AM
Kevin McDonough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I doubt my friends brand new professional grade CD burner is the
reason for the C2 errors, although I will acknowledge it is a
possibility. Neither can high burn speed be a factor as this stand
alone unit burning at 1x. So, based on your comments, the likely
cause is defective media. Interesting. Any thoughts on whether it was
a rare anomaly to get C2 errors on brand new discs by TDK and TY? I
mean, how common is it to get C2 errors on media from these companies?

"Dan G" wrote in message ...
No C2 errors are acceptable, C1 rates are not very significant.
If you see C2, it's generally due to poor burn/disc quality or excessive
burn speed, or both. C2 errors are correctable only to a point. Personally,
I wouldn't trust any disc that has C2 errors.

  #4  
Old February 27th 04, 02:18 AM
lilbear
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What speed are the TYs and Fujis (which, if made in Japan, are also TYs)
rated for? If they are rated for high speed burns, whereas you're only
burning at 1x, that may be why you're not getting great results with
them. If you're limited to 1x, I'd stick with finding the best of the
'audio' brands.

Of course, the above opinion is likely to change if a more knowledgable
soul (e.g., Graham or Mike) says differently. ;-P

~lilbear

In m,
Kevin McDonough typed:

I doubt my friends brand new professional grade CD burner is the
reason for the C2 errors, although I will acknowledge it is a
possibility. Neither can high burn speed be a factor as this stand
alone unit burning at 1x. So, based on your comments, the likely
cause is defective media. Interesting. Any thoughts on whether it was
a rare anomaly to get C2 errors on brand new discs by TDK and TY? I
mean, how common is it to get C2 errors on media from these companies?

"Dan G" wrote in message
...
No C2 errors are acceptable, C1 rates are not very significant.
If you see C2, it's generally due to poor burn/disc quality or

excessive
burn speed, or both. C2 errors are correctable only to a point.

Personally,
I wouldn't trust any disc that has C2 errors.



  #5  
Old February 27th 04, 02:59 AM
Dan G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You're using media designed for high speed burning, not 1x rated media.
Neither TDK or Fuji makes CDR's for sale in the USA, they are made by other
companies, and can be several different things.
TY media will deliver highest quality in most burners when burned between
24x and 40x, often error rates will be higher below 24x burn speed.


"Kevin McDonough" wrote in message
m...
I doubt my friends brand new professional grade CD burner is the
reason for the C2 errors, although I will acknowledge it is a
possibility. Neither can high burn speed be a factor as this stand
alone unit burning at 1x. So, based on your comments, the likely
cause is defective media. Interesting. Any thoughts on whether it was
a rare anomaly to get C2 errors on brand new discs by TDK and TY? I
mean, how common is it to get C2 errors on media from these companies?

"Dan G" wrote in message

...
No C2 errors are acceptable, C1 rates are not very significant.
If you see C2, it's generally due to poor burn/disc quality or excessive
burn speed, or both. C2 errors are correctable only to a point.

Personally,
I wouldn't trust any disc that has C2 errors.



  #6  
Old February 27th 04, 07:30 AM
Graham Mayor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This is essentially correct - standalone players usually burn at 1X, and
this requires disc formulations intended to burn at such a low speed.

As PC burners have become faster the formulations of the discs available
have changed to accommodate the higher speeds at the expense of the lower
speeds.

Sometimes these newer formulations have found their way into 'audio' spec
discs, but should not have as 'audio' discs are specifically intended to be
used with stand alone recorders and therefore should be capable of working
at the low speed.

There are suppliers of professional quality audio discs around eg HHB in the
UK.

Data discs - even if the writer can accommodate them - should not be used.

--

Graham Mayor




lilbear wrote:
What speed are the TYs and Fujis (which, if made in Japan, are also
TYs) rated for? If they are rated for high speed burns, whereas
you're only burning at 1x, that may be why you're not getting great
results with them. If you're limited to 1x, I'd stick with finding
the best of the 'audio' brands.

Of course, the above opinion is likely to change if a more
knowledgable soul (e.g., Graham or Mike) says differently. ;-P

~lilbear

In m,
Kevin McDonough typed:

I doubt my friends brand new professional grade CD burner is the
reason for the C2 errors, although I will acknowledge it is a
possibility. Neither can high burn speed be a factor as this stand
alone unit burning at 1x. So, based on your comments, the likely
cause is defective media. Interesting. Any thoughts on whether it
was a rare anomaly to get C2 errors on brand new discs by TDK and
TY? I mean, how common is it to get C2 errors on media from these
companies?

"Dan G" wrote in message
...
No C2 errors are acceptable, C1 rates are not very significant.
If you see C2, it's generally due to poor burn/disc quality or
excessive burn speed, or both. C2 errors are correctable only to a
point. Personally, I wouldn't trust any disc that has C2 errors.



  #7  
Old February 27th 04, 04:58 PM
SleeperMan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Just a side question, Dan...
I have Premium nad some 48x Plextor (TY) CDR's. Now, Plextor says that those
are 52x compatible, but still PoweRec lowers speed just before the end of
burning (when speed reaches about 50-50.5x). So, i guess they are not so
"compatible" Second "problem" is that premium doesn't have 48x speed
available, just 52x, 40x etc...So, i should burn at 40x...? Or just shut off
PoweRec ?

Dan G typed:

You're using media designed for high speed burning, not 1x rated
media. Neither TDK or Fuji makes CDR's for sale in the USA, they are
made by other companies, and can be several different things.
TY media will deliver highest quality in most burners when burned
between 24x and 40x, often error rates will be higher below 24x burn
speed.


"Kevin McDonough" wrote in message
m...
I doubt my friends brand new professional grade CD burner is the
reason for the C2 errors, although I will acknowledge it is a
possibility. Neither can high burn speed be a factor as this stand
alone unit burning at 1x. So, based on your comments, the likely
cause is defective media. Interesting. Any thoughts on whether it
was a rare anomaly to get C2 errors on brand new discs by TDK and
TY? I mean, how common is it to get C2 errors on media from these
companies?

"Dan G" wrote in message

...
No C2 errors are acceptable, C1 rates are not very significant.
If you see C2, it's generally due to poor burn/disc quality or
excessive burn speed, or both. C2 errors are correctable only to a
point. Personally, I wouldn't trust any disc that has C2 errors.




  #8  
Old February 29th 04, 08:49 PM
Robert Hancock
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On a recorder like that which burns at 1X, using CD-R Audio media would
probably be best, even if it will burn regular data CDs, since CD-R Audio
discs must be capable of burning at 1X, while many current data CDs are not
designed to be written at speeds as slow as 1X with good results.

--
Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada
To email, remove "nospam" from
Home Page:
http://www.roberthancock.com/


"Kevin McDonough" wrote in message
om...
I've been working with a friend to find out the CDR media that work
best with his Marantz CDR-510 Professional. I've got a Plextor
Premium drive and compared the C1/C2 error rates of the copies he made
of Pancho Sanchez's albumn, Papa Gato.

We used four types of CDR media, Fuji, Taiyo Yuden, TDK, and Phillips.
The TDK and Phillips media are audio CDs. I ran a C1/C2/CU test on
all of these including the original. The results are as follows:

--Original, pressed CD--
C1
Avg/Sec: 2.9
Max/Sec: 37
Total: 7,700
C2
N/A

--TDK--
C1
Avg/Sec: 4.2
Max/Sec: 21
Total: 11,125
C2
Avg/Sec: 0
Max/Sec: 1
Total: 3

--Taiyo Yuden--
C1
Avg/Sec: 2
Max/Sec: 31
Total: 5328
C2
Avg/Sec: 0
Max/Sec: 13
Total: 41

--Fuji--
C1
Avg/Sec: 4.4
Max/Sec: 43
Total: 11,808
C2
N/A

--Phillips--
C1
Avg/Sec: 4.1
Max/Sec: 24
Total: 10,932
C2
N/A

I have a couple of questions based on these results. First, I thought
C2 errors mainly came about from environmental factors: fingerprints,
scratches, etc. If I am getting them from a brand new disc, is there
something defective on the surface of the media? I looked at the
bottom of the media and all of them were smudge and defect free (at
least visible to the naked eye).

Secondly, based on these results, which media would you use? Actually,
I should probably run more tests to make a final conclusion. All of
them show an average/sec of C1 errors under 6, which I've heard is
excellent. The Taiyo Yuden had significantly lower number of C1 errors
and the lowest average per second. Yet, this media also had the
highest number of C2 errors.

I know both C1 and C2 errors are correctable, and as a result, all of
these discs are fine, but I am curious as to your thoughts as to
results you are getting with the media you use.



 




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