psu and venice core

i did just that, and although lots of websites tell me what a brown-out is
(something i already knew) and that it can have an effect on computers very
few state what the damage can be. The closest i got was data corruption with
the possibility of physical damage to hard drives. And this was only in the
case of brown-outs, not overloaded power supplies.

Dipping in line voltage is relatively common, and we have never had anything
electronic fail as a result of a momentary decrease, or even an extended
decrease in the AC power.

although brownouts are similar, i fail to see the application to this
situation. If you could be more specific with the way the parts fail, what
causes the failure, and perhaps even some of the physics invl=ovledthat
would be good. For the moment, i am still unconvinced that real damage can
come through a lack of power.

On a side note, have people here realised just how often people ask for
advice to correct a problem, or even just out of interest, only to be told
to just buy a new part? I'm not sure about the other inhabitants of this
newsgroup but my pockets are not infinitely deep, in fact they are quite
shallow. overcoming a problem without spending any money is, in my opinion,
always the first option.


"Chris Salter" wrote in message
. ..
Bushy wrote:

I don't see physically how underpowering a component can damage it. In
fact, the whole idea is counter intuitive. I'm willing to be wrong, but
that just seems bizarre.

Lookup brownouts on google, and you can see why it can be bad. (Internal
resisitance, voltage variation, running out of spec etc).

--
Chris

I should note however, that in this instance buying a new PSU is a
reasonable suggestion.

"Bushy" wrote in message
...

i did just that, and although lots of websites tell me what a brown-out is
(something i already knew) and that it can have an effect on computers
very few state what the damage can be. The closest i got was data
corruption with the possibility of physical damage to hard drives. And
this was only in the case of brown-outs, not overloaded power supplies.

Dipping in line voltage is relatively common, and we have never had
anything electronic fail as a result of a momentary decrease, or even an
extended decrease in the AC power.

although brownouts are similar, i fail to see the application to this
situation. If you could be more specific with the way the parts fail, what
causes the failure, and perhaps even some of the physics invl=ovledthat
would be good. For the moment, i am still unconvinced that real damage can
come through a lack of power.

On a side note, have people here realised just how often people ask for
advice to correct a problem, or even just out of interest, only to be told
to just buy a new part? I'm not sure about the other inhabitants of this
newsgroup but my pockets are not infinitely deep, in fact they are quite
shallow. overcoming a problem without spending any money is, in my
opinion, always the first option.


"Chris Salter" wrote in message
. ..
Bushy wrote:

I don't see physically how underpowering a component can damage it. In
fact, the whole idea is counter intuitive. I'm willing to be wrong, but
that just seems bizarre.

Lookup brownouts on google, and you can see why it can be bad. (Internal
resisitance, voltage variation, running out of spec etc).

--
Chris

Bushy wrote:
[...]
I am, however, still intrigued by this idea that underpowering
something can hurt it. Can you give examples, or some sort of
physical explanation for this?

The most affected parts are usually the voltage regulators. SMPS regulators
(ie: the type typcially found on motherboards for generating the CPU
voltage, memory voltage, etc) are often quite tuned for their expected
voltage input. Dropping the input voltage (eg: a sagging line from a PSU) is
a double-hit: efficiency drops as you go to lower input voltages, and you
also need more current to supply the same amount of power. I don't have any
actual numbers on me at the moment, but a drop of 15% in the input voltage
(eg: 12V line sagging to 10.2V) could increase the current requirements by
25%. Aside from the raw problem of having to be able to handle the higher
current, this increases power dissipation in the voltage regulator circuit
by about 55%. This is obviously not a Good Thing.

Aside from this, most of the important bits in your computer are behind
additional voltage regulators, so a sagging but stable 12V line is unlikely
to cause much of a stability problem unless the regulators can't keep up.
The bigger problem is that the line gets a lot noisier as the PSU becomes
more stressed. This is not so easily handled by the motherboard regulators
and cause voltage drops in the supply to the CPU, RAM, etc. This is usually
what causes PSU-related stability problems, and unfortunately is ignored by
a majority of the "enthusiast" sites when reviewing power supplies.

[...]

--
Michael Brown
www.emboss.co.nz : OOS/RSI software and more
Add michael@ to emboss.co.nz ---+--- My inbox is always open

maybe I missed it... But what brand is your psu right now.
That's verry importand. If it's a "cheap product" (I don't mean in dollars) than you're playing with fire, if it's running on it's limit.

If it's a good-designed one (there are several good brands..) than it can stand running at the limit for quite some time, and even at breaking-down, it won't take other (expensive) parts out of order...






On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:17:14 GMT, Bushy wrote:


I should note however, that in this instance buying a new PSU is a
reasonable suggestion.

"Bushy" wrote in message
...

i did just that, and although lots of websites tell me what a brown-out is
(something i already knew) and that it can have an effect on computers
very few state what the damage can be. The closest i got was data
corruption with the possibility of physical damage to hard drives. And
this was only in the case of brown-outs, not overloaded power supplies.

Dipping in line voltage is relatively common, and we have never had
anything electronic fail as a result of a momentary decrease, or even an
extended decrease in the AC power.

although brownouts are similar, i fail to see the application to this
situation. If you could be more specific with the way the parts fail, what
causes the failure, and perhaps even some of the physics invl=ovledthat
would be good. For the moment, i am still unconvinced that real damage can
come through a lack of power.

On a side note, have people here realised just how often people ask for
advice to correct a problem, or even just out of interest, only to be told
to just buy a new part? I'm not sure about the other inhabitants of this
newsgroup but my pockets are not infinitely deep, in fact they are quite
shallow. overcoming a problem without spending any money is, in my
opinion, always the first option.


"Chris Salter" wrote in message
. ..
Bushy wrote:

I don't see physically how underpowering a component can damage it. In
fact, the whole idea is counter intuitive. I'm willing to be wrong, but
that just seems bizarre.

Lookup brownouts on google, and you can see why it can be bad. (Internal
resisitance, voltage variation, running out of spec etc).

--
Chris

good answer! I'm fully convinced that an underpowered system is a bad idea,
and if your words weren't enough, the constant corruption of data on the hdd
leaves me no option but to agree!

it would seem that the computer in question just isn't all that reliable at
the moment, lots of hard drive issues, with unreadable data and stuff. I'm
gonna mark this all down to a flakey psu, and hope that the hdd isn't
physically damaged. Next week i'll purchase an antec case which comes with a
psu, 400W absolute minimum. This will mean i can put the old system back
together in the old case and just run it as a file repository/ extra
workstation.

Thanks for the help folks

Bushy


"Michael Brown" wrote in message
...
Bushy wrote:
[...]
I am, however, still intrigued by this idea that underpowering
something can hurt it. Can you give examples, or some sort of
physical explanation for this?

The most affected parts are usually the voltage regulators. SMPS
regulators (ie: the type typcially found on motherboards for generating
the CPU voltage, memory voltage, etc) are often quite tuned for their
expected voltage input. Dropping the input voltage (eg: a sagging line
from a PSU) is a double-hit: efficiency drops as you go to lower input
voltages, and you also need more current to supply the same amount of
power. I don't have any actual numbers on me at the moment, but a drop of
15% in the input voltage (eg: 12V line sagging to 10.2V) could increase
the current requirements by 25%. Aside from the raw problem of having to
be able to handle the higher current, this increases power dissipation in
the voltage regulator circuit by about 55%. This is obviously not a Good
Thing.

Aside from this, most of the important bits in your computer are behind
additional voltage regulators, so a sagging but stable 12V line is
unlikely to cause much of a stability problem unless the regulators can't
keep up. The bigger problem is that the line gets a lot noisier as the PSU
becomes more stressed. This is not so easily handled by the motherboard
regulators and cause voltage drops in the supply to the CPU, RAM, etc.
This is usually what causes PSU-related stability problems, and
unfortunately is ignored by a majority of the "enthusiast" sites when
reviewing power supplies.

[...]

--
Michael Brown
www.emboss.co.nz : OOS/RSI software and more
Add michael@ to emboss.co.nz ---+--- My inbox is always open

It is a 300W codegen brand psu. it came with the case. Together it only cost
me A$75 about 4 years ago, so i think by all definitions it can be regarded
as cheap.


"HaPe" wrote in message
news
maybe I missed it... But what brand is your psu right now.
That's verry importand. If it's a "cheap product" (I don't mean in
dollars) than you're playing with fire, if it's running on it's limit.

If it's a good-designed one (there are several good brands..) than it can
stand running at the limit for quite some time, and even at breaking-down,
it won't take other (expensive) parts out of order...






On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:17:14 GMT, Bushy
wrote:


I should note however, that in this instance buying a new PSU is a
reasonable suggestion.

"Bushy" wrote in message
...

i did just that, and although lots of websites tell me what a brown-out
is
(something i already knew) and that it can have an effect on computers
very few state what the damage can be. The closest i got was data
corruption with the possibility of physical damage to hard drives. And
this was only in the case of brown-outs, not overloaded power supplies.

Dipping in line voltage is relatively common, and we have never had
anything electronic fail as a result of a momentary decrease, or even an
extended decrease in the AC power.

although brownouts are similar, i fail to see the application to this
situation. If you could be more specific with the way the parts fail,
what
causes the failure, and perhaps even some of the physics invl=ovledthat
would be good. For the moment, i am still unconvinced that real damage
can
come through a lack of power.

On a side note, have people here realised just how often people ask for
advice to correct a problem, or even just out of interest, only to be
told
to just buy a new part? I'm not sure about the other inhabitants of this
newsgroup but my pockets are not infinitely deep, in fact they are quite
shallow. overcoming a problem without spending any money is, in my
opinion, always the first option.


"Chris Salter" wrote in message
. ..
Bushy wrote:

I don't see physically how underpowering a component can damage it. In
fact, the whole idea is counter intuitive. I'm willing to be wrong,
but
that just seems bizarre.

Lookup brownouts on google, and you can see why it can be bad.
(Internal
resisitance, voltage variation, running out of spec etc).

--
Chris

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:59:36 +0000, Bushy wrote:

it would seem that the computer in question just isn't all that reliable at
the moment, lots of hard drive issues, with unreadable data and stuff. I'm
gonna mark this all down to a flakey psu, and hope that the hdd isn't
physically damaged. Next week i'll purchase an antec case which comes with a
psu, 400W absolute minimum. This will mean i can put the old system back
together in the old case and just run it as a file repository/ extra
workstation.

The last case I bought came with a so called 400W PSU. The only sticker on
the PSU was a small wite paper that had 400W on it. That's it, nothing
else, no ratings, no nothing. It wouldn't run my A64 system. Been running
my K7 system for years now though. Point being, make sure the label has
the voltage ratings on it. Otherwise your old 300W may be better.

--
KT133 MB, CPU @2400MHz (24x100): SIS755 MB CPU @2330MHz (10x233)
Need good help? Provide all system info with question.
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
Verizon server http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

IMHO........ Replace ASAP


On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:02:10 GMT, Bushy wrote:

It is a 300W codegen brand psu. it came with the case. Together it only cost
me A$75 about 4 years ago, so i think by all definitions it can be regarded
as cheap.


"HaPe" wrote in message
news
maybe I missed it... But what brand is your psu right now.
That's verry importand. If it's a "cheap product" (I don't mean in
dollars) than you're playing with fire, if it's running on it's limit.

If it's a good-designed one (there are several good brands..) than it can
stand running at the limit for quite some time, and even at breaking-down,
it won't take other (expensive) parts out of order...






On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:17:14 GMT, Bushy
wrote:


I should note however, that in this instance buying a new PSU is a
reasonable suggestion.

"Bushy" wrote in message
...

i did just that, and although lots of websites tell me what a brown-out
is
(something i already knew) and that it can have an effect on computers
very few state what the damage can be. The closest i got was data
corruption with the possibility of physical damage to hard drives. And
this was only in the case of brown-outs, not overloaded power supplies.

Dipping in line voltage is relatively common, and we have never had
anything electronic fail as a result of a momentary decrease, or even an
extended decrease in the AC power.

although brownouts are similar, i fail to see the application to this
situation. If you could be more specific with the way the parts fail,
what
causes the failure, and perhaps even some of the physics invl=ovledthat
would be good. For the moment, i am still unconvinced that real damage
can
come through a lack of power.

On a side note, have people here realised just how often people ask for
advice to correct a problem, or even just out of interest, only to be
told
to just buy a new part? I'm not sure about the other inhabitants of this
newsgroup but my pockets are not infinitely deep, in fact they are quite
shallow. overcoming a problem without spending any money is, in my
opinion, always the first option.


"Chris Salter" wrote in message
. ..
Bushy wrote:

I don't see physically how underpowering a component can damage it. In
fact, the whole idea is counter intuitive. I'm willing to be wrong,
but
that just seems bizarre.

Lookup brownouts on google, and you can see why it can be bad.
(Internal
resisitance, voltage variation, running out of spec etc).

--
Chris

For those taking bets, the computer in question won't even boot now, and the
SMART system in the HDD considers itself in imminent danger of total
failure.

come monday i'll get a new Antec 400W+ psu and case, reformat the
mother-****er and pray that i didn't do any pjysical damage to the drive.
But let this be a lesson to all those out there in computer land, keep the
power coming, and mak sure your system isn't under powered.

Bushy



"HaPe" wrote in message
news
IMHO........ Replace ASAP


On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:02:10 GMT, Bushy
wrote:

It is a 300W codegen brand psu. it came with the case. Together it only
cost
me A$75 about 4 years ago, so i think by all definitions it can be
regarded
as cheap.


"HaPe" wrote in message
news
maybe I missed it... But what brand is your psu right now.
That's verry importand. If it's a "cheap product" (I don't mean in
dollars) than you're playing with fire, if it's running on it's limit.

If it's a good-designed one (there are several good brands..) than it
can
stand running at the limit for quite some time, and even at
breaking-down,
it won't take other (expensive) parts out of order...






On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:17:14 GMT, Bushy
wrote:


I should note however, that in this instance buying a new PSU is a
reasonable suggestion.

"Bushy" wrote in message
...

i did just that, and although lots of websites tell me what a
brown-out
is
(something i already knew) and that it can have an effect on computers
very few state what the damage can be. The closest i got was data
corruption with the possibility of physical damage to hard drives. And
this was only in the case of brown-outs, not overloaded power
supplies.

Dipping in line voltage is relatively common, and we have never had
anything electronic fail as a result of a momentary decrease, or even
an
extended decrease in the AC power.

although brownouts are similar, i fail to see the application to this
situation. If you could be more specific with the way the parts fail,
what
causes the failure, and perhaps even some of the physics
invl=ovledthat
would be good. For the moment, i am still unconvinced that real damage
can
come through a lack of power.

On a side note, have people here realised just how often people ask
for
advice to correct a problem, or even just out of interest, only to be
told
to just buy a new part? I'm not sure about the other inhabitants of
this
newsgroup but my pockets are not infinitely deep, in fact they are
quite
shallow. overcoming a problem without spending any money is, in my
opinion, always the first option.


"Chris Salter" wrote in message
. ..
Bushy wrote:

I don't see physically how underpowering a component can damage it.
In
fact, the whole idea is counter intuitive. I'm willing to be wrong,
but
that just seems bizarre.

Lookup brownouts on google, and you can see why it can be bad.
(Internal
resisitance, voltage variation, running out of spec etc).

--
Chris

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:23:38 +0000, Bushy wrote:

For those taking bets, the computer in question won't even boot now, and the
SMART system in the HDD considers itself in imminent danger of total
failure.

Didn't you say the system was 4 years old? HD's fail from time to time.

come monday i'll get a new Antec 400W+ psu and case, reformat the
mother-****er and pray that i didn't do any pjysical damage to the drive.
But let this be a lesson to all those out there in computer land, keep the
power coming, and mak sure your system isn't under powered.

Ouch, Antec's going to cost you. Wouldn't get less than a 500W. I've never
seen low power cause drive failure. Data failure yes, but not physical
drive damage. And you should never see this with newer drives that
automatically park the heads with powerdown. I probalby tried booting my
A64 system at elast 100times with my old 400W psu that wouldn't cut the
mustard. Didn't hurt a thing. I even paralleled in an old 230W AT PSU.
that let it run about 1 minute longer before freezing. At least it would
boot to the bios every time with it in the mix.:-) From there I purchased
3 PSU's. A $12 500W, a $15 550W, and a $24 600W. All ran the system fine.
And it's still running fine now with the 600W (which I left in) some 16
months later.


--
KT133 MB, CPU @2400MHz (24x100): SIS755 MB CPU @2330MHz (10x233)
Need good help? Provide all system info with question.
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
Verizon server http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm