Thinking "out of the box" when building a PC

kony writes:

It's quite simple. Smaller cases cost a little less, and
there are people who like smaller cases too. The ideal for
a case maker is not to market towards the end of selling a
case here, a case there to enthusiasts but selling bulk
through OEMs. Most people aren't changing around their
systems much.

True, but most people aren't changing their audio systems around very
much, either, and yet there is a healthy market for component audio
systems. There should also be a similar market for component computer
systems, so why aren't any available?

Why can one put different PC components in different boxes, then
connect them with standardized cables, just as one does for audio
systems? One box could contain the (removable) motherboard, another
could contain expansion cards, another could contain disk drives, and
so on. And connectors could be designed for easy connection and
disconnection and long-life, rather like connectors on professional
audio and video equipment that may be connected and disconnected
thousands of times.

While I agree that easy access would be nice, I find the
larger problem with modern systems to be cable management.

Yes. But see above. With more standardized cables and better
connectors, one could just plug things in and out. Do expansion cards
really have to connect with contacts direcly on a bare PCB that can't
tolerate more than a few insertions and removals?

Cases need come with more mounts for cable ties, channels to
restrain wires, general allowances to provide free/unused
space such that when cables are tied down they don't
interfere with other device addition or removal.

Yes. Right now every case ends up being a mess, no matter how
carefully one begins.

I"m not quite sure what your ideal is then.

How about modular systems. Do PCI cards _have_ to be slotted right
into the motherboard? What are the maximum lengths for the signal
paths?

Could expansion cards be mounted in small boxes that would then plug
into a simple external bus?

I find myself wondering why I must open cases and fool directly with
printed-circuit boards for a computer when audiophiles need never open
the cases of their equipment to put a system together. All they need
is the right cables ... not soldering irons.

One problem with larger cases is
also cable length, as it becomes a real PITA to have to
start hand-making cable extensions, and it's ridiculously
expensive how much aftermarket specialty cables cost for a
length of wire with connectors on both ends.

Perhaps because the market is so small at present.

... and yet, making things smaller means you could have more
free space in the same sized chassis.

It also makes it a lot harder to keep components cool, since they are
consuming more power in a smaller space.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:58:49 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

David Maynard writes:

And people like their 'never going to open it' whatever, be it a stereo,
VCR, DVD player, toaster, microwave oven, or PC, in a nice looking compact
package that will fit in the least objectionable space rather than a desk
or room sized monster that's 'easy to work on' when they aren't ever going
to because "we got lots of other stuff to get in here too, ya know."

That's not how component audio systems work; audiophiles can easily
cobble together complex systems from individual components. But there
are no component computer systems.

That would be horrible, if computers had to have huge racks
for each part.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 13:08:07 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

kony writes:

It's quite simple. Smaller cases cost a little less, and
there are people who like smaller cases too. The ideal for
a case maker is not to market towards the end of selling a
case here, a case there to enthusiasts but selling bulk
through OEMs. Most people aren't changing around their
systems much.

True, but most people aren't changing their audio systems around very
much, either,

Prevsiously you used the term "audiophile" and yes, they
certainly do change their systems.

Audio doesn't require short high speed buses. It needs
cleaner (for traditional analog) power that creates more
heat per watt, and spacing out components allows passive
cooling. You can't just space out a modern video card or
CPU then passively cool it (within reasonable measures).

Actually though, audio systems are more similar to computers
than you'd like to accept. Computers ARE modular like audio
racks, and are often stored in cabinets like computer cases
are. If you've ever looked behind a complex audio system
there are certainly a lot of cables, and if you opened up
your cassette deck to change parts you might not find a lot
of free space in some areas either.

There just isn't a good reason to space out everything, but
several reasons not to. You don't need a lot of space to do
anything, only enough space, and towards that end a large
case will be sufficient.



and yet there is a healthy market for component audio
systems. There should also be a similar market for component computer
systems, so why aren't any available?

Actually, consumer-grade audio has done exactly what
computers have, become more integrated and smaller.
Wasting space by expanding a computer could apply to
anything though- spread out the work on your desk all over
the floor so you can get to it better. Expand your garage
so you have more space between your garden tools. The idea
can be expanded to cover any areas and ultimately most
people prefer having things take up only as much space as
necessary and having larger open areas instead. They simply
don't find the frequency and difficultly of working in a
computer case (or whatever) to be work spreading it out to
take up more space).



Why can one put different PC components in different boxes, then
connect them with standardized cables, just as one does for audio
systems?

It's a bad idea, there's relatively little gain and plenty
of reasons not to.

It is NOT hard to cool a PC. It's not hard to add or remove
components either. Same thing happened with automobiles,
you used to be able to pull a steering rack out without
dropping the subframe, but these days you might not be able
to even pull an air filter or battery without moving things.

People like "small", and most don't "want" to do mechanical
things. They'll buy small then decide later what happens if
it breaks. If that troubles you and you do PC repair, it's
up to your descretion to try and charge more for working on
smaller systems if you feel that's a bother. Then again,
would you rather have to drive to a 'site because the
computer isn't easily transportable, rather than having a
box plopped down in front of you?

Further, most people order an OEM box or go to a store to
pick it up. They don't want to pay another $50 shipping for
a monster system that won't even fit on their desk.

Basically I"m suggesting that other people simply don't have
the same priorities as you do, that their priorities are the
majority so it is only cost effective to produce systems
bought by that majority of people.


One box could contain the (removable) motherboard, another
could contain expansion cards,

Nope, you can't just extend a high-speed bus.


another could contain disk drives,

Again, high-speed bus. It's not hard to remove drives from
most systems anyway, avg. person does it once every few
years if ever. That last thing they'd want is a high
percentage of space taken up just so that someday others
could replace it easier.

PLUS, drives can be cooled passively by computer case
exhaust fans, but they will not be cooled as much by being
in a separate enclosure with no fan. You'd need a fan in
separate enclosure for same level of cooling so it's no
quieter, no smaller, and not much easier to work on- the
benefits of integrated systems simply far outweigh the
benefits of separate boxes for everything.

and
so on. And connectors could be designed for easy connection and
disconnection and long-life, rather like connectors on professional
audio and video equipment that may be connected and disconnected
thousands of times.

Longer-life connectors would be nice, but also more
expensive. Many, many, many components in a PC could be
made better at higher cost. A nickel here and there isn't a
lot of additional cost but it does add up, ultimately if a
system cost 50% more but it's paper specs didn't read any
differently, people wouldn't buy it. ECS motherboards are
an example of this- people buy cheap when they, personally,
can't appreciate the difference.



While I agree that easy access would be nice, I find the
larger problem with modern systems to be cable management.

Yes. But see above. With more standardized cables and better
connectors, one could just plug things in and out. Do expansion cards
really have to connect with contacts direcly on a bare PCB that can't
tolerate more than a few insertions and removals?

It's quite a few insertions and removals, more than any
normal system could ever encounter. Bottom line- it works
as-is. Cost of theoretical improvements must be weighed
against benefit. Most systems last longer than their
warranty.



Cases need come with more mounts for cable ties, channels to
restrain wires, general allowances to provide free/unused
space such that when cables are tied down they don't
interfere with other device addition or removal.

Yes. Right now every case ends up being a mess, no matter how
carefully one begins.

Not every system, but who cares?
How many people open up their washing machine and comment
that the wiring to the knobs and buttons isn't esthetically
pleasing? People are prone to do irrational things and
having cables tidy without specific reason is one of them.
Certainly cables shouldn't be subject to fall into fans or
such, but computers are NOT supposed to be works of art on
the inside- close the case and buy a real piece of art.



I"m not quite sure what your ideal is then.

How about modular systems. Do PCI cards _have_ to be slotted right
into the motherboard? What are the maximum lengths for the signal
paths?

You should simply read specs and then have a basis, rather
than arguing things you don't know about yet. Just believe
me, there are many reasons why PCs are as they are.
Spreading them out is a waste of time, $, and space.



Could expansion cards be mounted in small boxes that would then plug
into a simple external bus?

What a terrible idea. Making things complex for no good
reason is silly. You propose changes without any clear
gain.

We have absolutely zero need to move cards away from a
motherboard. AT worst, hot-running cards need space on the
hot side. Nobody is forced to have a card in the adjacent
PCI slot AFAIK, so it's only if one chooses to do such
things that they cause problems. Bottom line- some people
think building a PC is only about putting part A in slot B.
So it is with many tasks where someone assumes they know but
hasn't given much thought to the short, let alone long term
consequences.


I find myself wondering why I must open cases and fool directly with
printed-circuit boards for a computer when audiophiles need never open
the cases of their equipment to put a system together.

Because audiophiles aren't working at board level. However,
I am an audiophile and I DO work at board level on
audiophile equipment, so your assumptions may be in error.

Apples and oranges though. You are only considering
hands-off audiophiles. If you consider only hands-off PC
users, they do in fact set up systems a similar way,
plugging in a different monitor, or USB scanner, etc- they
don't open up their systems either. If you try to do the
functions of a system integrator or builder, they you would
also have to argue using same consideration of being a
system integrator or builder for individual components and
circuit boards within a closed amplifier or CD player or
whatever-the-gear.

All they need
is the right cables ... not soldering irons.

Now you're being silly. They don't only need the right
cables for internal parts, there are noise and electrical,
signal quality issues not so unsimilar to a PC.

Further, you do not need a soldering iron for typical PC
construction. However, over the past month or so with my
audiophile hobby, I've soldered at least 20X as much as for
PCs, maybe 100X.



One problem with larger cases is
also cable length, as it becomes a real PITA to have to
start hand-making cable extensions, and it's ridiculously
expensive how much aftermarket specialty cables cost for a
length of wire with connectors on both ends.

Perhaps because the market is so small at present.

Yes, exactly. People who try to space out systems are in
the minority, plus there is a limitation in how far things
can be spaced out.

No matter what the bus, it is typical that to lengthen it,
it will have to be slowed down. Even now work is being done
to better serial connections and make this less of an issue,
BUT so is work to decrease size and increase integration.

Most people simply do not want something far larger and far
more expensive that does little of anything more.

... and yet, making things smaller means you could have more
free space in the same sized chassis.

It also makes it a lot harder to keep components cool, since they are
consuming more power in a smaller space.

Lot harder than what?
Spacing things out has a quite diminishing return. Take a
CPU for example- the primary problem is getting the heat
from the core to the heatsink fins, NOT whether you have a
small case or not, as most cases are still plenty big enough
for a pair of 92mm fans, if not 120mm, which is enough.

Spacing things out means you need more fans. That's not
easier. It's not quieter. It's more expensive. It is
harder to maintain opening several boxes to clean out dust
every so often. Having multiple boxes means a very large
increase in the total cost to manufacture cases, and their
weight, shipping costs.

You are free to buy multiple cases and try it out if you
don't believe me. Nobody is stopping you.

kony writes:

That would be horrible, if computers had to have huge racks
for each part.

Presumably you'd have a choice, just as you have a choice between
all-in-one audio systems and component systems.

Personally, I like racks, but not everyone feels that way.

Mxsmanic wrote:
David Maynard writes:


And people like their 'never going to open it' whatever, be it a stereo,
VCR, DVD player, toaster, microwave oven, or PC, in a nice looking compact
package that will fit in the least objectionable space rather than a desk
or room sized monster that's 'easy to work on' when they aren't ever going
to because "we got lots of other stuff to get in here too, ya know."


That's not how component audio systems work;

Actually, it is.

audiophiles can easily
cobble together complex systems from individual components.

But one doesn't have to have a CD player to operate a stereo receiver, nor
do you have to have an equalizer, or a cassette player, or any other
'component'. However, you don't *have* a 'computer' without a hard drive,
video card, motherboard, processor, memory, power supply, etc. and you
can't run 200 Mhz DDR, AGP and PCI busses around like an audio cable.

And when was the last time you saw a VCR with all the internal components
splayed out flat so it was 'easy to work on'? No, the casing constraint is
that they fit in the spaces they're typically placed. Just as home
component audio devices are generally sized to fit on shelves; not so it's
easy for the home user to swap MOSFETS in the receiver's power amp.

But there
are no component computer systems.

You mean in the manner you are arguing for but they are, in fact,
components. It's just that the ones necessary for the base device are
inside the case of the base device just as a typical TV isn't a tube in one
case, a power supply in another case, the color subcarrier processor in
another case, and the audio processor in yet another case. Mine came "put
together" and they didn't make it so I can easily swap the guts around.

But, for your computer, you do have the choice of which keyboard
'component', or mouse 'component', or printer 'component', or scanner
'component', or speaker 'component', or any number of other external
'components'. You can component yourself to death if you feel like it, just
like an audio system.

The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of PC users don't
need, nor necessarily want, giant computer cases occupying tons of space
for the 'feature' of jiggling the internal parts around any more than they
need a desk sized microwave oven so they can play with the klystron or swap
the front panel LCD driver for one with 'better graphics'. (In fact, of all
the devices mentioned, a PC is the EASIEST one to modify/upgrade)

That doesn't mean you can't build one if it strikes your fancy. I'm just
telling you why there aren't rows and rows of 'desk sized' PCs at the local
Best Buy.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Matt writes:


Find a case that is easy to open and that supports easy changing of
components.


Does anyone make such cases? Most of them seem to be designed for
looks or compact size rather than maintenance or cooling.

I can remove and replace the side panel of my Antec SLK3700 using only
one hand in 15 seconds. I don't know that changing drives could be much
easier. It has excellent hard drive cooling.

Ideally, a properly built PC would be about the size of a Readers
Digest

It's called the mini-Mac.

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:19:44 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

DaveW writes:

Legally in the U.S. a computer has to have a metal case because otherwise it
outputs powerful RF signals which will interfere with your neighbors
electronics, according to the FCC.

I've never seen interference from a PC with the covers off. Have you?

I've heard that cell phones can bring down servers and vice versa, but
I've not personally experienced that, either.

In any case, if you really do see any EMI, you can put some sort of
mesh around the PC and prevent it. But I don't see why a PC would be
any worse for EMI than a TV set, and TV sets are typically in plastic
cases, not metal cases.

Also you would be picking up loads of
interference on your computer's internal signal cables since they are not
shielded cables by design.

Here again, any examples? I know this can happen in theory; it
doesn't seem to happen much in practice.

Acutally, I have. I am also an amateur radio operator and use my
computer for digital mode on HF. The computer with the case cover off
completely covers up the HF bands and reception is difficult. I even
had to get an LCD monitor as CRT monitors also are very noisy.

Eric

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:19:44 +0200, Mxsmanic put
finger to keyboard and composed:

DaveW writes:

Legally in the U.S. a computer has to have a metal case because otherwise it
outputs powerful RF signals which will interfere with your neighbors
electronics, according to the FCC.

I've never seen interference from a PC with the covers off. Have you?

My PC is located within two metres of my TV set. With covers off, I
see vertical "banding" interference on one particular UHF channel.
This interference disappears when I turn off the PC.


- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:01:00 +1000, Franc Zabkar
wrote:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:19:44 +0200, Mxsmanic put
finger to keyboard and composed:

DaveW writes:

Legally in the U.S. a computer has to have a metal case because otherwise it
outputs powerful RF signals which will interfere with your neighbors
electronics, according to the FCC.

I've never seen interference from a PC with the covers off. Have you?

My PC is located within two metres of my TV set. With covers off, I
see vertical "banding" interference on one particular UHF channel.
This interference disappears when I turn off the PC.


- Franc Zabkar

I"ve seen plenty too, with almost any newer system. Seem to
be more a matter of whether the user has susceptible
equipment nearby rather than whether there is _potential_
for interference.