Users that have a UPS but no data backup

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:34:13 -0800, DevilsPGD
wrote:

A UPS is useful for a lot more than rare prolonged power outages. I'm a
lot more concerned about a UPS covering me through short outages and
blown breakers.

Yeah, the big threat is the blink, not the long outage.

Loren Pechtel lorenpechtel hotmail.com wrote:

DevilsPGD wrote:

A UPS is useful for a lot more than rare prolonged power
outages. I'm a lot more concerned about a UPS covering me
through short outages and blown breakers.

Yeah, the big threat is the blink, not the long outage.

But a voltage regulator (line conditioner) is better than a UPS
for that.

--

In message om someone
claiming to be John Doe typed:

Loren Pechtel lorenpechtel hotmail.com wrote:

DevilsPGD wrote:

A UPS is useful for a lot more than rare prolonged power
outages. I'm a lot more concerned about a UPS covering me
through short outages and blown breakers.

Yeah, the big threat is the blink, not the long outage.

But a voltage regulator (line conditioner) is better than a UPS
for that.

For a fraction of a second outage, it will do a similar job. For
computers there isn't really a "better", PSUs are extremely effective at
converting noisy power into clean DC for internal use.

However, a voltage regulator won't help you in a 1-3 second outage
whereas a UPS will.

--
It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to
steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.

DevilsPGD Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage crazyhat.net wrote:

In message 4eecd0a8$0$32067$c3e8da3$40d4fd75 news.astraweb.com
someone claiming to be John Doe jdoe usenetlove.invalid typed:

Loren Pechtel lorenpechtel hotmail.com wrote:

DevilsPGD Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage crazyhat.net wrote:

A UPS is useful for a lot more than rare prolonged power
outages. I'm a lot more concerned about a UPS covering me
through short outages and blown breakers.

Yeah, the big threat is the blink, not the long outage.

But a voltage regulator (line conditioner) is better than a UPS
for that.

For a fraction of a second outage, it will do a similar job. For
computers there isn't really a "better", PSUs are extremely
effective at converting noisy power into clean DC for internal
use.

However, a voltage regulator won't help you in a 1-3 second
outage whereas a UPS will.

A voltage regulator helps ensure that the power to your computer
is either on or off. That helps, regardless. The next question is
whether or not you really need protection from anything other than
blips/blinks. The vast majority of users will never lose
significant data that their UPS could conceivably have helped
protect. Being able to run your computer on battery power is cool.
That's why they sold it to you.

--















--
It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to
steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.



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From: DevilsPGD Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage crazyhat.net
Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Users that have a UPS but no data backup
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:11:02 -0700
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In message m someone
claiming to be John Doe typed:

DevilsPGD Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage crazyhat.net wrote:

In message 4eecd0a8$0$32067$c3e8da3$40d4fd75 news.astraweb.com
someone claiming to be John Doe jdoe usenetlove.invalid typed:

Loren Pechtel lorenpechtel hotmail.com wrote:

DevilsPGD Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage crazyhat.net wrote:

A UPS is useful for a lot more than rare prolonged power
outages. I'm a lot more concerned about a UPS covering me
through short outages and blown breakers.

Yeah, the big threat is the blink, not the long outage.

But a voltage regulator (line conditioner) is better than a UPS
for that.

For a fraction of a second outage, it will do a similar job. For
computers there isn't really a "better", PSUs are extremely
effective at converting noisy power into clean DC for internal
use.

However, a voltage regulator won't help you in a 1-3 second
outage whereas a UPS will.

A voltage regulator helps ensure that the power to your computer
is either on or off. That helps, regardless.

Would two voltage regulators in a row be better?

Yes I'm trolling... But PSUs already include voltage regulation
circuitry, putting an external one in front of an internal one falls
into the "is cool... That's why they sold it to you" category in most
cases, at least as far as the computer itself is concerned.

The next question is
whether or not you really need protection from anything other than
blips/blinks. The vast majority of users will never lose
significant data that their UPS could conceivably have helped
protect.

I'm not worried about data loss, but it is nice to avoid the annoyance
of an unexpected reboot and some data loss.

Being able to run your computer on battery power is cool.

That it is.

That's why they sold it to you.



--
It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to
steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.

A PC power supply is nothing like a voltage regulator. It will not
stop your computer from rebooting when your lights blink and your
speakers pop.

But you remain blissfully ignorant...

--



DevilsPGD Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage crazyhat.net wrote:

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From: DevilsPGD Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage crazyhat.net
Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Users that have a UPS but no data backup
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:09:42 -0700
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In message 4eecf7e5$0$2213$c3e8da3$a9097924 news.astraweb.com someone
claiming to be John Doe jdoe usenetlove.invalid typed:

DevilsPGD Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage crazyhat.net wrote:

In message 4eecd0a8$0$32067$c3e8da3$40d4fd75 news.astraweb.com
someone claiming to be John Doe jdoe usenetlove.invalid typed:

Loren Pechtel lorenpechtel hotmail.com wrote:

DevilsPGD Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage crazyhat.net wrote:

A UPS is useful for a lot more than rare prolonged power
outages. I'm a lot more concerned about a UPS covering me
through short outages and blown breakers.

Yeah, the big threat is the blink, not the long outage.

But a voltage regulator (line conditioner) is better than a UPS
for that.

For a fraction of a second outage, it will do a similar job. For
computers there isn't really a "better", PSUs are extremely
effective at converting noisy power into clean DC for internal
use.

However, a voltage regulator won't help you in a 1-3 second
outage whereas a UPS will.

A voltage regulator helps ensure that the power to your computer
is either on or off. That helps, regardless.

Would two voltage regulators in a row be better?

Yes I'm trolling... But PSUs already include voltage regulation
circuitry, putting an external one in front of an internal one falls
into the "is cool... That's why they sold it to you" category in most
cases, at least as far as the computer itself is concerned.

The next question is
whether or not you really need protection from anything other than
blips/blinks. The vast majority of users will never lose
significant data that their UPS could conceivably have helped
protect.

I'm not worried about data loss, but it is nice to avoid the annoyance
of an unexpected reboot and some data loss.

Being able to run your computer on battery power is cool.

That it is.

That's why they sold it to you.



--
It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to
steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.

John Doe wrote:
A PC power supply is nothing like a voltage regulator. It will not
stop your computer from rebooting when your lights blink and your
speakers pop.

But you remain blissfully ignorant...


The ATX supply *is* a regulating device. The duty cycle
of the switching stage, varies according to load. Notice the
word "feedback" in the schematic here - that is how the
supply checks the output voltage, and adjusts the output
voltage to maintain the correct value. The adjustment is
made by varying the duty cycle of the switching stage.

http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html

The ATX supply, can maintain correct output voltages, while
the input is 90-120VAC. That means, even under input brownout, the
supply continues to function. It could operate over a wider range
than that, but for the need to have an undervoltage lockout
to protect the switching transistors.

Say the DC output of the supply, is currently drawing 120 watts.
On the AC input, we'd guess the supply was using 120V @ 1 amp.
If the AC voltage suddenly dropped to 60V and there was no UVLO,
the supply would draw 2 amps (60V * 2A primary side, to make 120W
for the secondary side). The equivalent of those two amps (a
doubling of current), would be needed in the primary switching
transistors. And if continued unchecked, the switcher would
be handling too large currents for comfort. So at some point,
switching converters should switch themselves off, and limit
operation to an acceptable range.

*******

In terms of holdup time (the time the supply can provide DC
output), that is a function of output loading.

The spec sheet for the supply, will say it can provide full
load current, for 16 milliseconds or more. The primary side
capacitor, is made big enough, to protect it against line
transients (transients where the voltage goes to zero for
periods of milliseconds). The holdup time is generally
enough, to make it compatible with the cheapest UPS types
(standby UPS). A standby UPS needs some time to switch
to battery, during which the AC output will be zero.

Utility power Running on battery
Standby UPS ----------------+ +-----------
| |
+-----------+
notices power
is out

ATX primary cap ---------------___ +---------
\___ |
\___ |
\_|


No glitch or variation
ATX DC outputs --------------------------------------
Why? Because it's regulated

At the other extreme, if your PC is sleeping, and the
motherboard is only using +5VSB rail, the power supply
can maintain a correct 5V level on +5VSB, for 30 seconds
or longer. So if the AC power goes off for a few seconds
while the computer is sleeping, you won't lose your session
stored in RAM. It's good for times in the vicinity of
thirty seconds or so. That's how long mine can go, before
the +5VSB LED goes off on the motherboard.

Paul

Paul nospam needed.com wrote:

John Doe wrote:

A PC power supply is nothing like a voltage regulator. It will
not stop your computer from rebooting when your lights blink
and your speakers pop.

But you remain blissfully ignorant...


The ATX supply *is* a regulating device.

Of course it is, but IT IS NOTHING LIKE A LINE VOLTAGE REGULATOR
that includes a big heavy transformer.

You should know better.

--











The duty cycle
of the switching stage, varies according to load. Notice the
word "feedback" in the schematic here - that is how the
supply checks the output voltage, and adjusts the output
voltage to maintain the correct value. The adjustment is
made by varying the duty cycle of the switching stage.

http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html

The ATX supply, can maintain correct output voltages, while
the input is 90-120VAC. That means, even under input brownout, the
supply continues to function. It could operate over a wider range
than that, but for the need to have an undervoltage lockout
to protect the switching transistors.

Say the DC output of the supply, is currently drawing 120 watts.
On the AC input, we'd guess the supply was using 120V 1 amp.
If the AC voltage suddenly dropped to 60V and there was no UVLO,
the supply would draw 2 amps (60V * 2A primary side, to make 120W
for the secondary side). The equivalent of those two amps (a
doubling of current), would be needed in the primary switching
transistors. And if continued unchecked, the switcher would
be handling too large currents for comfort. So at some point,
switching converters should switch themselves off, and limit
operation to an acceptable range.

*******

In terms of holdup time (the time the supply can provide DC
output), that is a function of output loading.

The spec sheet for the supply, will say it can provide full
load current, for 16 milliseconds or more. The primary side
capacitor, is made big enough, to protect it against line
transients (transients where the voltage goes to zero for
periods of milliseconds). The holdup time is generally
enough, to make it compatible with the cheapest UPS types
(standby UPS). A standby UPS needs some time to switch
to battery, during which the AC output will be zero.

Utility power Running on battery
Standby UPS ----------------+ +-----------
| |
+-----------+
notices power
is out

ATX primary cap ---------------___ +---------
\___ |
\___ |
\_|


No glitch or variation
ATX DC outputs --------------------------------------
Why? Because it's regulated

At the other extreme, if your PC is sleeping, and the
motherboard is only using +5VSB rail, the power supply
can maintain a correct 5V level on +5VSB, for 30 seconds
or longer. So if the AC power goes off for a few seconds
while the computer is sleeping, you won't lose your session
stored in RAM. It's good for times in the vicinity of
thirty seconds or so. That's how long mine can go, before
the +5VSB LED goes off on the motherboard.

Paul



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From: Paul nospam needed.com
Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Users that have a UPS but no data backup
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 01:07:11 -0500
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