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Recommend data recovery company?



 
 
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  #41  
Old April 28th 18, 07:18 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default Recommend data recovery company?

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

I'd say it's probably worth - if you're considering this route - getting
the hot-air gun. My last 6 months' employment (with a company which
repaired car electronics; I was mostly on dashboards [the bit behind the
dials - it's a lot of the computing in modern cars]) involved a lot of
replacement of surface-mount devices; the devices (packages) themselves
are surprisingly robust, it's the tracks - and especially pads - on the
board that tend to lift. Especially where it's a pad connected to a
track that only goes under the device.


A hot air gun is part of my electronics toolbox. That I don't use it
often doesn't mean it has no value. I've found it handy for shrinking
heat-shrink tubing (rather than wrapping a wire splice with tape),
helped loosen siezed or rusted bolts, bend plastic without breaking it,
and many other uses. Like a hot-glue gun, a heat gun has lots of uses.

A soldering iron would need a super fine tip to solder the ROM chip so
it touched only one pin (and prevent solder bridges between pins). You
could only unsolder one pin at a time which means having to wick the
solder from other other pins but that probably will still have them
slightly soldered the pad. The heatgun lets you melt the solder on all
pins so you can lift off. Likely you won't have to apply more solder
when you heat the solder left on the pads to put on the new chip. Using
a soldering gun with microtip, solder sucker, and solder wick will be
exponentially more difficult than using a heatgun (about $25). It
becomes part of your tool collection. Guys love tools. Girls love
shoes. We both like to collect.

A got a Kill-a-watt meter just to determine if a fridge would work on
the same circuit as other electrics (I was surprised at how little
current the fridge draws). I've then used it on my computer and other
electrics. Sometimes you get a specialty tool and it never gets used
again (so check if you can rent it). Some tools you know will have
future potential use.

Yes, even reading the part number may require optical aid - and it's
highly likely to be a proprietary one anyway, though if you ask (e. g.
here) there's likely to be someone who recognises part of the number.


If the part number can be read. Seems chip manufacturers deliberately
use the palest white ink that makes in impossible to read.

I wonder if a failed head could fail in such a way that it damages the
electronics to which it connects.


Yep. A worn spindle bearing can burn out a diode or regulator because
of the continual higher current load to the motor. I had a PCB where a
tiny diode not only failed but must've exploded because only 1 end of it
was left wave-soldered to a minipad. Took me a while to realize what I
was looking for was not there.

Nowadays (well, for quite a while now) I do image backups (full,
differentials, incrementals) to internal storage and copied to external
storage and off-site media so I don't have to bother doing computer
repairs. Just replace, restore, and move on.
  #42  
Old April 28th 18, 07:56 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default Recommend data recovery company?

B00ze wrote:

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Rather than move the platters, why not move the controller (from the
good drive to the dud), if you think that's what's faulty? Doing that
might also be possible without breaking the seal on the housings.


Yeah, I will try that first if I decide the recovery labs practice
extortion.


Considering their costs, $1500 is cheap. It's not cheap when it is a
one-time cost out of your personal pocket. You could probably replace
your car's exhaust pipes for a hell of a lot cheaper than going to a
muffler shop but then it is irrelevant that your labor, materials, and
gear is cheaper to you because you can't do the job and have to pay
someone else. Just like you, they want a reasonable salary, too, and
they are in business to stay in business.

There's the cost of the personell.
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/d...RCH_KO0,22.htm

The highly specialized lab equipment is very expensive. There's the
cost to train them on the lab equipment (unless they manage to hire
someone away from a competitor with the exactly the same gear). There's
the cost to setup, run, and continually maintain a clean room even when
there's no work being done. There's also the salaries of all the other
employees.

The typical recovery time runs 2 to 5 days (16 to 40 hours) in trying to
recover as much data as possible off your failed drive. What do you
earn per hour? And it's not just a tech's salary but all the operating
costs of a company that get rolled into factoring the price of sales.
Also, while they may quote a price, they have to be exorbitant and vague
over the phone because they don't yet know how much time and resources
they will have to invest in recovering your data. Could be cheaper.
Could be more expensive.

If they had millions of customers like McDonalds then they could spread
their costs over all those customers. A hundred customers over which
all those much higher salaries and much more expensive operating costs
are spread will not be so blessed with the economy of volume sales. I
don't how many sales might be typical in a year for drive recovery
services; however, I strongly suspect it is a hell of alot less than the
75 burgers per *SECOND* that McDonalds sells while using simpleton
equipment with minimum-wage employees instead of the very pricey
specialized lab gear along with employees that make 4-5 times, or much
more, per hour than that of a McDonalds employee. You want someone with
the expertise of a McDonalds employee using their toolbox gear to
recover your data?


  #43  
Old April 28th 18, 08:21 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default Recommend data recovery company?

As an aside to your failed drive issue, perhaps you might want to
consider running drive health monitors on your other computers. I use
HDD Sentinel but there are other choices. Some drives include
Calibration Retry Count (attribute 0B hex or 11 decimal) in their SMART
data. It measures the number of retries to calibrate a drive which can
indicate problems with the motor, bearings, or power supply of the
drive. My Western Digital drive do but no my Seagate drive (and it's
not relevant to the SSD drive).

Apparently this attribute is not rated as critical to the health of the
disk. Usually the Current Pending [Reallocation] Sector Count (number
of unstable sectors waiting to get remapped and copied to reserve
sectors) is more critical in measuring a drive's health. In HDD
Sentinel, both attributes are enabled (included) to affect its measure
of a drive's health but I don't know the weighting they give to each.

Here's the list of SMART attributes that HDD Sentinel will monitor:
https://www.hdsentinel.com/smart/smartattr.php

SMART really isn't that smart. A drive with an A-rating regarding its
health could immediately fail. A drive with an F-rating could continue
running for years. SMART is just trying to report some behaviors of the
drive and extrapolate might they might indicate. SMART is failure
prediction, not proof of imminent failure. A SMART health monitor might
say "green" but the drive still fails. However, if the monitor says
"red" then it's time to do backups (which should be regularly scheduled
for other than just hardware failure), move data, or clone the drive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.#Accuracy
  #44  
Old April 30th 18, 07:02 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10
B00ze
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 67
Default Recommend data recovery company?

On 2018-04-28 05:40, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[snip]

The drive still spins and shows-up in Windows, so it's not a
power-delivery problem. I can swap the ROM chip, provided I am very
very patient with this (I don't have an air gun, so I'd be stuck with
a soldering iron.) If there was no possibility of a failed head then
I'd swap the boards right away...


I'd say it's probably worth - if you're considering this route - getting
the hot-air gun. My last 6 months' employment (with a company which
repaired car electronics; I was mostly on dashboards [the bit behind the
dials - it's a lot of the computing in modern cars]) involved a lot of
replacement of surface-mount devices; the devices (packages) themselves
are surprisingly robust, it's the tracks - and especially pads - on the
board that tend to lift. Especially where it's a pad connected to a
track that only goes under the device.


Yeah, Vanguard says the same thing lol. Guess I'll go get one if I
decide to try to swap PCBs. Still gotta examine the drive's PCB to see
if there is something that's obviously burnt. But I want to call some
places first, see how cheap a quote I can get, see if I can get them to
play nice - i.e. I provide both drives, you swap the heads and the PCB
and ship it back, so how cheap can you make it?

Since the OP is asking about using a recovery lab on his failed drive, I
doubt he has the skills and gear to swap the ROM chip assuming he finds
a donor drive with EXACTLY the same PCB (same minicontroller, same
firmware) and even knows how to identify which is the ROM chip to move.


I have another drive of the same make and model, bought at the same
time. Identifying the chip might be a problem if there's a bunch of
similar chips on the board - the days where I could just look-up a
chip number in TTL books to see what it does are long gone.


Yes, even reading the part number may require optical aid - and it's
highly likely to be a proprietary one anyway, though if you ask (e. g.
here) there's likely to be someone who recognises part of the number.
[]


Yup, I'll need a magnifying glass (besides, nowadays I need one anyway
lol). Hopefully it's readable...

Well, I won't get nowhere if the problem is a failed head; then I'd


I wonder if a failed head could fail in such a way that it damages the
electronics to which it connects. I suspect open-circuit is more likely
than a short, but I don't actually know what the head technology _is_
these days (my mind still visualises some sort of coil - while the
technology still involves magnetism, it can't be _too_ far from that).


Yeah, well, if the failed head has started magnetizing everywhere it
goes, then it's too late now ;-) If it's burnt something on the PCB,
then it will burn it right away again on the replacement PCB. I should
really replace both the head stack and the PCB (then I would not need to
mock around with the calibration chip.) But I've never done that before;
chances are high I can screw something up...

have to swap the head assembly and put the ROM chip back. It's all
kinda risky, those heads are very fragile, which is why I'm looking
for a cheap recovery place. But there's no way I'm paying $2000 just
to get old game ISOs and old documents - that drive has been in my old


Is that what's there? For game ISOs, presumably you could find copies of
the game CDs on ebay? The documents obviously not.
If you hadn't accessed it for 5 years, do you actually need it anyway? I
can see myself still wanting to access it for completeness (and
crossness with myself for not having backed it up), but ...


Yup, haven't touched the stuff in years. I can live without it, but it
has all my saved games (from games I'll never play again lol) and I
don't know what documents (coz I haven't used it in so long.) It's
mostly for completeness that I want it back.

Best Regards,

--
! _\|/_ Sylvain /
! (o o) Memberavid-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
oO-( )-Oo Gravity is a myth The earth sucks.

  #45  
Old April 30th 18, 07:20 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10
B00ze
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 67
Default Recommend data recovery company?

On 2018-04-28 14:56, VanguardLH wrote:

B00ze wrote:

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Rather than move the platters, why not move the controller (from the
good drive to the dud), if you think that's what's faulty? Doing that
might also be possible without breaking the seal on the housings.


Yeah, I will try that first if I decide the recovery labs practice
extortion.


Considering their costs, $1500 is cheap. It's not cheap when it is a
one-time cost out of your personal pocket. You could probably replace
your car's exhaust pipes for a hell of a lot cheaper than going to a
muffler shop but then it is irrelevant that your labor, materials, and
gear is cheaper to you because you can't do the job and have to pay
someone else. Just like you, they want a reasonable salary, too, and
they are in business to stay in business.


Considering that swapping heads/PCB (or moving the platters to a new
drive) is a one hour job, $1500 is a crazy per-hour salary. And charging
more for bigger drives is nonsense - fixing physical damage takes the
same amount of time no matter how much data's on the drive. I need a
place that's flexible, where I can negotiate how much work gets done
before we call it quits. I don't want them spending 3 days trying to
rebuild a failed NTFS filesystem; I don't want to pay for that...

The highly specialized lab equipment is very expensive. There's the
cost to train them on the lab equipment (unless they manage to hire
someone away from a competitor with the exactly the same gear). There's
the cost to setup, run, and continually maintain a clean room even when
there's no work being done. There's also the salaries of all the other
employees.


I think $500 for a one hour job is quite reasonable despite the
expenses. If they can call me after that and tell me if it will take
more, then I'm good, I can stop it there...

The typical recovery time runs 2 to 5 days (16 to 40 hours) in trying to
recover as much data as possible off your failed drive. What do you
earn per hour? And it's not just a tech's salary but all the operating
costs of a company that get rolled into factoring the price of sales.
Also, while they may quote a price, they have to be exorbitant and vague
over the phone because they don't yet know how much time and resources
they will have to invest in recovering your data. Could be cheaper.
Could be more expensive.


That's why I'm not really interested in places that say it'll cost
"$2000 or nothing" if they cannot do it - I don't want them spending 40
hours on this, all I need is an engineer that's swapped parts between
drives before. If it takes more than that, I'll just chuck the drive in
the trash...

If they had millions of customers like McDonalds then they could spread
their costs over all those customers. A hundred customers over which
all those much higher salaries and much more expensive operating costs
are spread will not be so blessed with the economy of volume sales. I
don't how many sales might be typical in a year for drive recovery
services; however, I strongly suspect it is a hell of alot less than the
75 burgers per *SECOND* that McDonalds sells while using simpleton
equipment with minimum-wage employees instead of the very pricey
specialized lab gear along with employees that make 4-5 times, or much
more, per hour than that of a McDonalds employee. You want someone with
the expertise of a McDonalds employee using their toolbox gear to
recover your data?


Yeah, there is that fact that they don't do that many recoveries a year...

Regards,

--
! _\|/_ Sylvain /
! (o o) Memberavid-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
oO-( )-Oo Money is the root of all evil, and man needs roots.

  #46  
Old April 30th 18, 12:33 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31
Default Recommend data recovery company?

In message , B00ze
writes:
On 2018-04-28 05:40, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[]
I'd say it's probably worth - if you're considering this route - getting
the hot-air gun. My last 6 months' employment (with a company which

[]
Yeah, Vanguard says the same thing lol. Guess I'll go get one if I

[]
Well, I won't get nowhere if the problem is a failed head; then I'd


I wonder if a failed head could fail in such a way that it damages the
electronics to which it connects. I suspect open-circuit is more likely
than a short, but I don't actually know what the head technology _is_
these days (my mind still visualises some sort of coil - while the
technology still involves magnetism, it can't be _too_ far from that).


Yeah, well, if the failed head has started magnetizing everywhere it
goes, then it's too late now ;-) If it's burnt something on the PCB,
then it will burn it right away again on the replacement PCB. I should
really replace both the head stack and the PCB (then I would not need
to mock around with the calibration chip.) But I've never done that
before; chances are high I can screw something up...


Well, not calibration, but you'd still need whichever chip holds the
list of bad sectors and which ones have been swapped in their place.
[]
for a cheap recovery place. But there's no way I'm paying $2000 just
to get old game ISOs and old documents - that drive has been in my old


Is that what's there? For game ISOs, presumably you could find copies of
the game CDs on ebay? The documents obviously not.
If you hadn't accessed it for 5 years, do you actually need it anyway? I
can see myself still wanting to access it for completeness (and
crossness with myself for not having backed it up), but ...


Yup, haven't touched the stuff in years. I can live without it, but it
has all my saved games (from games I'll never play again lol) and I
don't know what documents (coz I haven't used it in so long.) It's
mostly for completeness that I want it back.


We are alike. I paid 60 pounds for another netbook of the same model as
my XP one that died (it overheats within a few seconds of power on, and
shuts itself off), just so I can put the HD in and "see what's there"
(OS and software wise, and settings; the _data_ I read off it no
problem); it (the replacement netbook) is still sitting here as
delivered, I haven't opened the package!

Best Regards,

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Does Barbie come with Ken?"
"Barbie comes with G.I. Joe. She fakes it with Ken." - anonymous
  #47  
Old April 30th 18, 02:23 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 160
Default Recommend data recovery company?

In article , B00ze
wrote:
Rather than move the platters, why not move the controller (from the
good drive to the dud), if you think that's what's faulty? Doing that
might also be possible without breaking the seal on the housings.

Yeah, I will try that first if I decide the recovery labs practice
extortion.


Considering their costs, $1500 is cheap. It's not cheap when it is a
one-time cost out of your personal pocket. You could probably replace
your car's exhaust pipes for a hell of a lot cheaper than going to a
muffler shop but then it is irrelevant that your labor, materials, and
gear is cheaper to you because you can't do the job and have to pay
someone else. Just like you, they want a reasonable salary, too, and
they are in business to stay in business.


Considering that swapping heads/PCB (or moving the platters to a new
drive) is a one hour job, $1500 is a crazy per-hour salary.


you're paying for their expertise and skill, not an hourly rate.

they also have the proper equipment to use, including a clean room,
which isn't cheap.

you're also assuming it only takes an hour to recover a drive. recovery
is nowhere near as easy as you think.

And charging
more for bigger drives is nonsense - fixing physical damage takes the
same amount of time no matter how much data's on the drive.


false.

I need a
place that's flexible, where I can negotiate how much work gets done
before we call it quits. I don't want them spending 3 days trying to
rebuild a failed NTFS filesystem; I don't want to pay for that...


do you want your data recovered or not?
simple yes or no question.



The typical recovery time runs 2 to 5 days (16 to 40 hours) in trying to
recover as much data as possible off your failed drive. What do you
earn per hour? And it's not just a tech's salary but all the operating
costs of a company that get rolled into factoring the price of sales.
Also, while they may quote a price, they have to be exorbitant and vague
over the phone because they don't yet know how much time and resources
they will have to invest in recovering your data. Could be cheaper.
Could be more expensive.


That's why I'm not really interested in places that say it'll cost
"$2000 or nothing" if they cannot do it -


if they can't do it, there is no cost.

I don't want them spending 40
hours on this, all I need is an engineer that's swapped parts between
drives before. If it takes more than that, I'll just chuck the drive in
the trash...


toss it.

it's clear that the data on it is not worth much to you.
  #48  
Old April 30th 18, 04:10 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default Recommend data recovery company?

B00ze wrote:

Considering that swapping heads/PCB (or moving the platters to a new
drive) is a one hour job, $1500 is a crazy per-hour salary.


Did you ask them if they charge a fixed fee regardless of what they end
up repairing? I doubt it. If a simple PCB swab (along with moving over
the ROM chip or microcontroller if the ROM is inside there) would take a
lot less time and be a lower price. What they quote over the phone is
going to be exhorbitant because they don't yet know what they have to
do. Once you ship the drive to them, they can provide a much more
accurate estimate and then you can decide if you want to go ahead or
have them ship the drive back to you.

How would they know how much work it would take until they see it? Do
you expect an over-the-phone estimate of repairing your car's exhaust
based on "it makes more noise" from the muffler shop? They probably
won't even give you an estimate. They must see first. A PCB (and chip
swap) doesn't require a clean room nor highly specialist techs working
with ferromagnetic microscopes or other specialized and other pricey
equipment.

And charging more for bigger drives is nonsense - fixing physical
damage takes the same amount of time no matter how much data's on the
drive.


Okay, you'll have to explain to me why trying to read through 10 GB of
sectors on a platter takes the same amount of time as trying to use a
ferromagneticscope on 1 TB of sectors. Ever format a driver? Yup, you
have, so you know it takes a lot longer to format a 10 GB drive than for
a 1 TB drive.

I need a place that's flexible, where I can negotiate how much work
gets done before we call it quits. I don't want them spending 3 days
trying to rebuild a failed NTFS filesystem; I don't want to pay for
that...


Once they get the drive and can do an inspection, they should be able to
provide a more accurate estimate.

The typical recovery time runs 2 to 5 days (16 to 40 hours) in trying to
recover as much data as possible off your failed drive. What do you
earn per hour? And it's not just a tech's salary but all the operating
costs of a company that get rolled into factoring the price of sales.
Also, while they may quote a price, they have to be exorbitant and vague
over the phone because they don't yet know how much time and resources
they will have to invest in recovering your data. Could be cheaper.
Could be more expensive.


That's why I'm not really interested in places that say it'll cost
"$2000 or nothing" if they cannot do it - I don't want them spending
40 hours on this, all I need is an engineer that's swapped parts
between drives before. If it takes more than that, I'll just chuck
the drive in the trash...


Hmm, I don't remember calling a drive recovery service that said they
charged a minimum fee of $2000 (or quoted a minimum fee). Maybe I was
blessed in who I called (sorry, been too many years to remember who it
was plus it was for someone else's failed drive).

Have you called any of the recovery companies mentioned so far to see
how they quote estimates of unseen devices? Pick one that sounds most
fair, check they pay for return shipping, and the worst you're out is
the cost to ship the drive to them if upon inspection they quote a price
that is extreme compared to the value of the data on the drive (which
doesn't sound of much value from your descriptions).
  #49  
Old May 1st 18, 02:19 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10
B00ze
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 67
Default Recommend data recovery company?

On 2018-04-30 07:33, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[snip]

Yeah, well, if the failed head has started magnetizing everywhere it
goes, then it's too late now ;-) If it's burnt something on the PCB,
then it will burn it right away again on the replacement PCB. I should
really replace both the head stack and the PCB (then I would not need
to mock around with the calibration chip.) But I've never done that
before; chances are high I can screw something up...


Well, not calibration, but you'd still need whichever chip holds the
list of bad sectors and which ones have been swapped in their place.


Ahhh, yes, now that's annoying; if calibration and bad sectors go into
the same chip I'm kinda stuck. But I guess it's OK, I can loose some
files, I just want the bulk of them...

for a cheap recovery place. But there's no way I'm paying $2000 just
to get old game ISOs and old documents - that drive has been in my old

Is that what's there? For game ISOs, presumably you could find copies of
the game CDs on ebay? The documents obviously not.
If you hadn't accessed it for 5 years, do you actually need it anyway? I
can see myself still wanting to access it for completeness (and
crossness with myself for not having backed it up), but ...


Yup, haven't touched the stuff in years. I can live without it, but it
has all my saved games (from games I'll never play again lol) and I
don't know what documents (coz I haven't used it in so long.) It's
mostly for completeness that I want it back.


We are alike. I paid 60 pounds for another netbook of the same model as
my XP one that died (it overheats within a few seconds of power on, and
shuts itself off), just so I can put the HD in and "see what's there"
(OS and software wise, and settings; the _data_ I read off it no
problem); it (the replacement netbook) is still sitting here as
delivered, I haven't opened the package!


I once bought a C64 (I had sold mine years before) just so I'd have one
in case I wanted to hook it up. I carried the thing from apartment to
apartment, never opening it. Got rid of it one day never having opened
the box lol. For the hard drive, I do not need it for program settings,
because it was a DATA drive only in that system. I can still boot the
old PC and look at how programs are configured, as I ever so slowly
migrate everything to my new PC, since all the programs and registry are
on different drives. I should really hurry up with that tho, another
drive is bound to stop working soon...

Regards,

--
! _\|/_ Sylvain /
! (o o) Memberavid-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
oO-( )-Oo Is there another word for synonym?

  #50  
Old May 1st 18, 02:35 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31
Default Recommend data recovery company?

In message , B00ze
writes:
On 2018-04-30 07:33, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[]
Well, not calibration, but you'd still need whichever chip holds the
list of bad sectors and which ones have been swapped in their place.


Ahhh, yes, now that's annoying; if calibration and bad sectors go into
the same chip I'm kinda stuck. But I guess it's OK, I can loose some
files, I just want the bulk of them...

[]
Unless some of the swapped sectors - either in the dead drive or the one
whose boards you use - are ones that cover the partition table, master
file table, boot sectors, etcetera.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I love the way Microsoft follows standards. In much the same manner that fish
follow migrating caribou. - Paul Tomblin, cited by "The Real Bev", 2017-2-18.
 




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