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  #1  
Old January 5th 20, 08:49 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Norm Why[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Getting there

This is a continuation of an old thread:

Paul suggested I try an Intel E4700 CPU. So far I have only acquired a
couple of Intel E4800 CPU(s), TDP 65 W. I cannot feel heat emitted, like
with Intel Q9650 CPU. With it, PC would try to boot 3 times then give up.
Now it tries forever, but gives beep code; Continuous short beeps: Power
error. No BIOS screen.

This is progress. I must try harder to find Intel E4700 CPU. I'll re-solder
new 470uF 25V Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitor


  #2  
Old January 6th 20, 02:43 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Getting there

Norm Why wrote:
This is a continuation of an old thread:

Paul suggested I try an Intel E4700 CPU. So far I have only acquired a
couple of Intel E4800 CPU(s), TDP 65 W. I cannot feel heat emitted, like
with Intel Q9650 CPU. With it, PC would try to boot 3 times then give up.
Now it tries forever, but gives beep code; Continuous short beeps: Power
error. No BIOS screen.

This is progress. I must try harder to find Intel E4700 CPU. I'll re-solder
new 470uF 25V Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitor



Those are probably E8400 processors, which are fine
as well. The E8400 could have a higher FSB value.

One way to find "friends" of a CPU, is via cpu-world.
The table at the bottom of the page, shows processors
for the same socket (LGA775). The E4700 should be
"cheaper" as it is gutless, but likely draws
the least power of the lot. Back when I had the e4700
set up on a VIA board, the whole PC drew 65W. That's
because everything in the PC was gutless.

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_2...7E4700%29.html

You look the individuals up on "ark".

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us...0-mhz-fsb.html

Processor Base Frequency 2.60 GHz
Bus Speed 800 MHz 200MHz (four txfr per clk)

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us...3-mhz-fsb.html

Processor Base Frequency 3.00 GHz
Bus Speed 1333 MHz 333MHz (four txfr per clk)

The memory clock is related to the CPU clock choice.

These processors don't need a lot of VCore power.
36W to 43W should do, at VCore (12V @ 3A or 12V @ 4A approx).

As long as the processors in question are in the CPU Support
chart, everything is great from that perspective.

The power will beep, if the HWmonitor spots a
rail which is out of spec. Some of the rails are
like "VCore". When you change CPUs, the BIOS should
be checking the VID values for the processor and so on,
and doing the right things.

To give an example of "doing the wrong thing", take
my P4B with 1.8 GHz Northwood in it. When the BIOS
battery is dead, it re-computes start conditions
and so on. It applies *1.75V* to the CPU, because it
is mis-interpreting something. I have to hurry and
enter the BIOS, and set VCore to 1.5V again, save
and exit settings, and now it's back to 1.5V, like
it says on the box. This is *dangerous* because
one of the processors in that era, had "instant death
syndrome" at that wrong voltage.

The Q9650 should not be like that, or doing that.
This occurred on some previous VRM/VID scenario.

This has also happened on some AMD motherboards,
where the idiotic BIOS uses a previous-family voltage
and it's way way off. Fortunately, some of those
could take 2.5V or so, and the error merely made
the CPU get hot. The CPU itself was in no danger.

When Intel releases info on processes at ISSCC,
sometimes the headroom isn't that high. This is
why on systems later than yours, memory rated as
1.5V nominal, is not to be run over 1.65V. There's
some reliability issue if you ignore that warning.
And it's not always the interface itself. Sometimes
if you raise memory higher than VCore, a phantom diode
forms in the substrate, between power distribution
"rings", and power flows where it should not.
A lot of silicon devices have "power sequence"
requirements and when devices like the Southbridge
(five rails) come up, it's a bitch to keep all those
things in the right sequence. That was one of my
most hated jobs at work, finding two chips I
wanted to use, had different sequence requirements.
And you couldn't satisfy both chip requirements
at the same time.

*******

Summary:

The nature of your problem hasn't changed.

I could find one thread, where they cleared power
error by "clearing CMOS". Do that with *PSU unplugged*.

For the person here, it was "dogged persistence". You can
see the power beep might have been a false positive here
(maybe it should have beeped something else).

https://forums.tweaktown.com/gigabyt...ast-beeps.html

Paul
  #3  
Old January 6th 20, 06:44 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
~misfit~[_16_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 158
Default Getting there

On 6/01/2020 2:43 PM, Paul wrote:
Norm Why wrote:
This is a continuation of an old thread:

Paul suggested I try an Intel E4700 CPU. So far I have only acquired a couple ofÂ* Intel E4800
CPU(s), TDP 65 W. I cannot feel heat emitted, like with Intel Q9650 CPU. With it, PC would try to
boot 3 times then give up. Now it tries forever, but gives beep code; Continuous short beeps:
Power error. No BIOS screen.

This is progress. I must try harder to find Intel E4700 CPU. I'll re-solder new 470uF 25V
Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitor


Those are probably E8400 processors, which are fine
as well. The E8400 could have a higher FSB value.


The E8400 is a 45nm process "Wolfdale" CPU. A lot of boards of that era needed a BIOS update to run
45nm CPUs properly (which is why your suggestion of the E7400 was a good one, that's 65nm).

Then again the BIOS update was mainly a CPU family-specific microcode update IIRC so maybe it's all
good...
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
  #4  
Old January 29th 20, 03:14 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Norm Why[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Getting there

This is a continuation of an old thread:

Paul suggested I try an Intel E4700 CPU. So far I have only acquired a
couple of Intel E4800 CPU(s), TDP 65 W. I cannot feel heat emitted, like
with Intel Q9650 CPU. With it, PC would try to boot 3 times then give up.
Now it tries forever, but gives beep code; Continuous short beeps: Power
error. No BIOS screen.

This is progress. I must try harder to find Intel E4700 CPU. I'll
re-solder new 470uF 25V Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitor


Those are probably E8400 processors, which are fine
as well. The E8400 could have a higher FSB value.

One way to find "friends" of a CPU, is via cpu-world.
The table at the bottom of the page, shows processors
for the same socket (LGA775). The E4700 should be
"cheaper" as it is gutless, but likely draws
the least power of the lot. Back when I had the e4700
set up on a VIA board, the whole PC drew 65W. That's
because everything in the PC was gutless.

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Core_2...7E4700%29.html

You look the individuals up on "ark".

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us...0-mhz-fsb.html

Processor Base Frequency 2.60 GHz
Bus Speed 800 MHz 200MHz (four txfr per clk)

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us...3-mhz-fsb.html

Processor Base Frequency 3.00 GHz
Bus Speed 1333 MHz 333MHz (four txfr per clk)

The memory clock is related to the CPU clock choice.

These processors don't need a lot of VCore power.
36W to 43W should do, at VCore (12V @ 3A or 12V @ 4A approx).

As long as the processors in question are in the CPU Support
chart, everything is great from that perspective.

The power will beep, if the HWmonitor spots a
rail which is out of spec. Some of the rails are
like "VCore". When you change CPUs, the BIOS should
be checking the VID values for the processor and so on,
and doing the right things.

To give an example of "doing the wrong thing", take
my P4B with 1.8 GHz Northwood in it. When the BIOS
battery is dead, it re-computes start conditions
and so on. It applies *1.75V* to the CPU, because it
is mis-interpreting something. I have to hurry and
enter the BIOS, and set VCore to 1.5V again, save
and exit settings, and now it's back to 1.5V, like
it says on the box. This is *dangerous* because
one of the processors in that era, had "instant death
syndrome" at that wrong voltage.

The Q9650 should not be like that, or doing that.
This occurred on some previous VRM/VID scenario.

This has also happened on some AMD motherboards,
where the idiotic BIOS uses a previous-family voltage
and it's way way off. Fortunately, some of those
could take 2.5V or so, and the error merely made
the CPU get hot. The CPU itself was in no danger.

When Intel releases info on processes at ISSCC,
sometimes the headroom isn't that high. This is
why on systems later than yours, memory rated as
1.5V nominal, is not to be run over 1.65V. There's
some reliability issue if you ignore that warning.
And it's not always the interface itself. Sometimes
if you raise memory higher than VCore, a phantom diode
forms in the substrate, between power distribution
"rings", and power flows where it should not.
A lot of silicon devices have "power sequence"
requirements and when devices like the Southbridge
(five rails) come up, it's a bitch to keep all those
things in the right sequence. That was one of my
most hated jobs at work, finding two chips I
wanted to use, had different sequence requirements.
And you couldn't satisfy both chip requirements
at the same time.

*******

Summary:

The nature of your problem hasn't changed.

I could find one thread, where they cleared power
error by "clearing CMOS". Do that with *PSU unplugged*.

For the person here, it was "dogged persistence". You can
see the power beep might have been a false positive here
(maybe it should have beeped something else).

https://forums.tweaktown.com/gigabyt...ast-beeps.html

Paul


Thanks for the links, Paul,

I managed to get an E4700 for $8. Postage was twice that. It was delivered
in a box, so it took a long time. At this point there is no difference from
the E4800. This problem will require more time.


  #5  
Old January 29th 20, 03:34 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Norm Why[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Getting there

This is a continuation of an old thread:

Paul suggested I try an Intel E4700 CPU. So far I have only acquired a
couple of Intel E4800 CPU(s), TDP 65 W. I cannot feel heat emitted, like
with Intel Q9650 CPU. With it, PC would try to boot 3 times then give
up. Now it tries forever, but gives beep code; Continuous short beeps:
Power error. No BIOS screen.

This is progress. I must try harder to find Intel E4700 CPU. I'll
re-solder new 470uF 25V Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitor


Those are probably E8400 processors, which are fine
as well. The E8400 could have a higher FSB value.


The E8400 is a 45nm process "Wolfdale" CPU. A lot of boards of that era
needed a BIOS update to run 45nm CPUs properly (which is why your
suggestion of the E7400 was a good one, that's 65nm).

Then again the BIOS update was mainly a CPU family-specific microcode
update IIRC so maybe it's all good...
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed
self-promoting software.


Thanks. I should mention that at this point I have one 500 MB RAM stick
installed with the Intel heat sink cooler on the CPU. Maybe I will try a no
RAM boot. If I can get into BIOS I can tweak it. I have BARTPE
(preinstallation edition based on WinXP). On it I have the BIOS F2 upgrade.
If I can boot BARTPE and install BIOS v2.0 I'm home free.


  #6  
Old January 31st 20, 01:09 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Norm Why[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Getting there

Thanks. I should mention that at this point I have one 500 MB RAM stick
installed with the Intel heat sink cooler on the CPU. Maybe I will try a
no RAM boot. If I can get into BIOS I can tweak it. I have BARTPE
(preinstallation edition based on WinXP). On it I have the BIOS F2
upgrade. If I can boot BARTPE and install BIOS v2.0 I'm home free.


I removed the one RAM stick to see if I got different beep codes. Nope.
'Continuous short beeps: Power error' takes priority. This means the
annoying beep speaker can be removed and the system can be allowed to
recycle. Paul gave a link where GA-EP45-DS3L MOBO eventually POSTed. With
Q9650, I could feel heat radiated. E4700 is cold. I can still feel heat
coming from somewhere but face is not directional. Touching does not reveal
hot spot. Going through MOBO I found a ten-pin keyed connector not plugged
in. I removed all power to peripherals, like DVD R/W drive.

Like Louis Rossmann, I think I need to find a component that is "shorting",
(an active short?).

Where to find such tool?


  #7  
Old January 31st 20, 01:34 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Getting there

Norm Why wrote:
Thanks. I should mention that at this point I have one 500 MB RAM stick
installed with the Intel heat sink cooler on the CPU. Maybe I will try a
no RAM boot. If I can get into BIOS I can tweak it. I have BARTPE
(preinstallation edition based on WinXP). On it I have the BIOS F2
upgrade. If I can boot BARTPE and install BIOS v2.0 I'm home free.


I removed the one RAM stick to see if I got different beep codes. Nope.
'Continuous short beeps: Power error' takes priority. This means the
annoying beep speaker can be removed and the system can be allowed to
recycle. Paul gave a link where GA-EP45-DS3L MOBO eventually POSTed. With
Q9650, I could feel heat radiated. E4700 is cold. I can still feel heat
coming from somewhere but face is not directional. Touching does not reveal
hot spot. Going through MOBO I found a ten-pin keyed connector not plugged
in. I removed all power to peripherals, like DVD R/W drive.

Like Louis Rossmann, I think I need to find a component that is "shorting",
(an active short?).

Where to find such tool?


The claim here is the continuous short beeps are a RAM error.

https://forums.tweaktown.com/gigabyt...t-beeps-4.html

It almost seems like a half-finished BIOS design or something.

Some RAMs working, other RAMs not working, participants going crazy with
the custom settings.

I had less trouble with my VIA chipset board than that :-)
(That was the board where the chipset actually works with 2GB
RAM DIMMs, but the BIOS was never "tuned" to use the right
Tsu and Th and the like. When I used the 1GB sticks I had, that
board was flawless. Long Prime95 runs, no problem at all. BIOS
issues can make an awful mess when they happen.)

Paul
  #8  
Old January 31st 20, 02:38 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Norm Why[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Getting there

Thanks. I should mention that at this point I have one 500 MB RAM stick
installed with the Intel heat sink cooler on the CPU. Maybe I will try a
no RAM boot. If I can get into BIOS I can tweak it. I have BARTPE
(preinstallation edition based on WinXP). On it I have the BIOS F2
upgrade. If I can boot BARTPE and install BIOS v2.0 I'm home free.


I removed the one RAM stick to see if I got different beep codes. Nope.
'Continuous short beeps: Power error' takes priority. This means the
annoying beep speaker can be removed and the system can be allowed to
recycle. Paul gave a link where GA-EP45-DS3L MOBO eventually POSTed. With
Q9650, I could feel heat radiated. E4700 is cold. I can still feel heat
coming from somewhere but face is not directional. Touching does not
reveal hot spot. Going through MOBO I found a ten-pin keyed connector not
plugged in. I removed all power to peripherals, like DVD R/W drive.

Like Louis Rossmann, I think I need to find a component that is
"shorting", (an active short?).

Where to find such tool?


The claim here is the continuous short beeps are a RAM error.


GA-EP45-DS3L ? I reseated my 500 MB RAM.


https://forums.tweaktown.com/gigabyt...t-beeps-4.html

It almost seems like a half-finished BIOS design or something.

Some RAMs working, other RAMs not working, participants going crazy with
the custom settings.

I had less trouble with my VIA chipset board than that :-)
(That was the board where the chipset actually works with 2GB
RAM DIMMs, but the BIOS was never "tuned" to use the right
Tsu and Th and the like. When I used the 1GB sticks I had, that
board was flawless. Long Prime95 runs, no problem at all. BIOS
issues can make an awful mess when they happen.)

Paul


Thanks Paul. I got a non-contact infrared thermometer and found heat was
generated in all the usual suspects: components with heat sink radiators. I
keep the room thermostat at 15 C and allow heat from xBox 360 and Samsung
plasma TV to keep it warm. Tonight outside temperature should get down to 8
C. I'll turn off thermostat and electronics and let the room get cold. With
recycle the GA-EP45-DS3L MOBO might POST.


  #9  
Old January 31st 20, 04:15 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Norm Why[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Getting there

Thanks. I should mention that at this point I have one 500 MB RAM stick
installed with the Intel heat sink cooler on the CPU. Maybe I will try
a no RAM boot. If I can get into BIOS I can tweak it. I have BARTPE
(preinstallation edition based on WinXP). On it I have the BIOS F2
upgrade. If I can boot BARTPE and install BIOS v2.0 I'm home free.

I removed the one RAM stick to see if I got different beep codes. Nope.
'Continuous short beeps: Power error' takes priority. This means the
annoying beep speaker can be removed and the system can be allowed to
recycle. Paul gave a link where GA-EP45-DS3L MOBO eventually POSTed.
With Q9650, I could feel heat radiated. E4700 is cold. I can still feel
heat coming from somewhere but face is not directional. Touching does
not reveal hot spot. Going through MOBO I found a ten-pin keyed
connector not plugged in. I removed all power to peripherals, like DVD
R/W drive.

Like Louis Rossmann, I think I need to find a component that is
"shorting", (an active short?).

Where to find such tool?


The claim here is the continuous short beeps are a RAM error.


GA-EP45-DS3L ? I reseated my 500 MB RAM.


https://forums.tweaktown.com/gigabyt...t-beeps-4.html

It almost seems like a half-finished BIOS design or something.

Some RAMs working, other RAMs not working, participants going crazy with
the custom settings.

I had less trouble with my VIA chipset board than that :-)
(That was the board where the chipset actually works with 2GB
RAM DIMMs, but the BIOS was never "tuned" to use the right
Tsu and Th and the like. When I used the 1GB sticks I had, that
board was flawless. Long Prime95 runs, no problem at all. BIOS
issues can make an awful mess when they happen.)

Paul


Thanks Paul. I got a non-contact infrared thermometer and found heat was
generated in all the usual suspects: components with heat sink radiators.
I keep the room thermostat at 15 C and allow heat from xBox 360 and
Samsung plasma TV to keep it warm. Tonight outside temperature should get
down to 8 C. I'll turn off thermostat and electronics and let the room get
cold. With recycle the GA-EP45-DS3L MOBO might POST.


On the other hand, "Semiconductor materials (carbon, silicon, germanium)
typically have negative temperature coefficients of resistance." From:

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tex...nt-resistance/

So maybe the room is too cold for the GA-EP45-DS3L to POST?


  #10  
Old January 31st 20, 01:33 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Getting there

Norm Why wrote:
Thanks. I should mention that at this point I have one 500 MB RAM stick
installed with the Intel heat sink cooler on the CPU. Maybe I will try
a no RAM boot. If I can get into BIOS I can tweak it. I have BARTPE
(preinstallation edition based on WinXP). On it I have the BIOS F2
upgrade. If I can boot BARTPE and install BIOS v2.0 I'm home free.
I removed the one RAM stick to see if I got different beep codes. Nope.
'Continuous short beeps: Power error' takes priority. This means the
annoying beep speaker can be removed and the system can be allowed to
recycle. Paul gave a link where GA-EP45-DS3L MOBO eventually POSTed.
With Q9650, I could feel heat radiated. E4700 is cold. I can still feel
heat coming from somewhere but face is not directional. Touching does
not reveal hot spot. Going through MOBO I found a ten-pin keyed
connector not plugged in. I removed all power to peripherals, like DVD
R/W drive.

Like Louis Rossmann, I think I need to find a component that is
"shorting", (an active short?).

Where to find such tool?
The claim here is the continuous short beeps are a RAM error.

GA-EP45-DS3L ? I reseated my 500 MB RAM.

https://forums.tweaktown.com/gigabyt...t-beeps-4.html

It almost seems like a half-finished BIOS design or something.

Some RAMs working, other RAMs not working, participants going crazy with
the custom settings.

I had less trouble with my VIA chipset board than that :-)
(That was the board where the chipset actually works with 2GB
RAM DIMMs, but the BIOS was never "tuned" to use the right
Tsu and Th and the like. When I used the 1GB sticks I had, that
board was flawless. Long Prime95 runs, no problem at all. BIOS
issues can make an awful mess when they happen.)

Paul

Thanks Paul. I got a non-contact infrared thermometer and found heat was
generated in all the usual suspects: components with heat sink radiators.
I keep the room thermostat at 15 C and allow heat from xBox 360 and
Samsung plasma TV to keep it warm. Tonight outside temperature should get
down to 8 C. I'll turn off thermostat and electronics and let the room get
cold. With recycle the GA-EP45-DS3L MOBO might POST.


On the other hand, "Semiconductor materials (carbon, silicon, germanium)
typically have negative temperature coefficients of resistance." From:

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tex...nt-resistance/

So maybe the room is too cold for the GA-EP45-DS3L to POST?


In the fossil record, I see no sign of such a temperature related problem.

There may have been one or two chipsets long ago, where something
about the circuit was temperature sensitive. But that is by no means
a common situation. It's an outlier.

Saturating logic circuits can successfully run from -55C to way way
above the boiling point of water. They're not snowflakes, but you have
to select the right items for the job. I found a processor the other
day, for automotive usage, which goes way outside the range of anything
I've ever used.

I have a P45 here, and it's never had a problem starting. That's
the refurb Optiplex with a dual core in it.

Room temperature is the temperature it's *supposed* to work at.
Sure, some electronics have trouble at -20C (maybe LED lightbulbs
or some pedestal box for ATT), but that's considered one extreme
of the temperature range. On the high end, it's a function of
what simulation temperature the circuit was verified at. Like at work,
maybe you'd set the simulation temperature to 105C for margining,
even though you had no intention of ever running an actual chip
at that temperature. CMOS gets slower at high temperature, and you're
checking for timing failures by using a simulation temperature that
high. Then the idea is, operation at temperatures below that is
just fine and dandy.

Where circuits have problems, is in the ad-hoc circuit used for
backfeed protection and parts of the reset circuit. Some of these
rely on analog voltages and capacitors, and occasionally some
booboo in there causes a motherboard to have a temperature issue.
It's not normal for pure-digital circuits (Northbridge/Southbridge/CPU)
to become "wobbly" with temp.

On the Southbridge, the only problem I've heard of, is the RTC
and CMOS RAM, the RAM may not function at reduced voltage (CMOS
battery getting weak) and at some non-room temperature. Some
of these conditions when they happened, were considered to be
functional failures and the chipset should never have been
shipped that way. Again, this is not a common condition, and there
hasn't been a problem like that in yonks.

Have you tried your one-stick-of-RAM test, in each of the
four slots individually ? Don't forget to remove all power
from the system, before moving the stick of RAM. That means
switch off at the back or unplug the PC power cable, wait
*at least* 30 seconds for 5VSB to drain. Asus motherboards
all have a green LED onboard, that monitors +5VSB and when that
LED extinguishes, then it's safe to move RAM. I don't know
how many other brands have that.

On some motherboards, there is the chicken-versus-egg problem,
where the user needs to change BIOS versions, the board won't
come up, and you can't flash the BIOS. Your board has a Dual BIOS,
and by now, probably both sides have the same BIOS version. That
would be another variable at this point. That's what the hope of
using some other processor was about - getting the board to start
by using an alternate processor, so the BIOS version could get
changed when you wanted to change it.

For removable BIOS chips, you could flash them using a lab programmer.
But I no longer have access to stuff like that, and I don't know of
any computer stores in town who I would expect to own such equipment.

My newest motherboard here, has its own flasher onboard. You can
change the BIOS version, *without* a CPU being in the CPU socket.
There is a special USB port, you plug in a flash stick with a BIOS
image on it, there's a pushbutton on the back of the PC, you
press that, and a few minutes later, the machine has a new BIOS
version. I've never used the feature, but the feature sure was
attractive when I bought it. Because, it meant I "couldn't be
held hostage by a motherboard refusal-to-start". There is a
microcontroller next to the USB port, that reads the flash stick
and writes the BIOS chip with what it finds. What used to cost $150,
now costs a buck to do.

Paul
 




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