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#1
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Puzzling Dimension 4500S overheating problem
Ancient old 4500S sitting under a desk doing its job for lots of
years. Has not been opened or had anyone fiddling or changing things. I would really like to not have to remember all the things it would take to configure a replacement right now. But it started failing, hanging, crashing, sometimes rebooting, etc. I did a quick check and the cpu and power supply fans are still spinning, no bulging capacitors, etc. I stumbled onto the fact that if I have a big box fan blowing hard against the open case that it runs just fine. So it has to be heat related, but nothing is clogged with lint and both fans are spinning just fine. As a last resort I even flipped the latch, lifted off the heat sink, there didn't appear to be anything cracked or burnt, still had a film of heat sink compound squeezed out around the edge of the cpu. Anyone have any tips or ideas for quick checks I could do to try to diagnose this? The 4500S was in the small case and uses an extra 4-pin +12 cable. I think that means I can't just yank a supply out of any other machine (I don't have a spare 4500S around) and do a quick substitution to see if the problem goes away. I see I can buy replacement supplies, but I'd really rather be fairly confident what the problem is before I toss money at this. I now remember maybe a decade ago a Philips cdrw drive made a different computer have strange problems when the drive began failing, but I don't know if that might apply here. Any ideas or suggestions to help track this down would really be appreciated Thanks |
#2
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Puzzling Dimension 4500S overheating problem
In
, bill wrote: So it has to be heat related, but nothing is clogged with lint and both fans are spinning just fine. As a last resort I even flipped the latch, lifted off the heat sink, there didn't appear to be anything cracked or burnt, still had a film of heat sink compound squeezed out around the edge of the cpu. Some (maybe all) thermal paste dries out and could even crack in time. I would clean both off with something approved for the purpose. And don't use any tool that would scratch anything. Nothing worse than cracking one open and some guy used a slotted screwdriver to remove the old paste. I don't know if your CPU has a temp sensor or not, but it wouldn't hurt to use one of those utilities to try. Although I wouldn't focus too much attention to the CPU. As the problem is probably more likely to be RAM, power supply, etc. instead. -- Bill Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2 Centrino Core Duo T2400 1.83GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3 |
#3
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Puzzling Dimension 4500S overheating problem
On 1/3/2012 3:31 AM, bill wrote:
Ancient old 4500S sitting under a desk doing its job for lots of years. Has not been opened or had anyone fiddling or changing things. I would really like to not have to remember all the things it would take to configure a replacement right now. But it started failing, hanging, crashing, sometimes rebooting, etc. I did a quick check and the cpu and power supply fans are still spinning, no bulging capacitors, etc. I stumbled onto the fact that if I have a big box fan blowing hard against the open case that it runs just fine. So it has to be heat related, but nothing is clogged with lint and both fans are spinning just fine. As a last resort I even flipped the latch, lifted off the heat sink, there didn't appear to be anything cracked or burnt, still had a film of heat sink compound squeezed out around the edge of the cpu. Anyone have any tips or ideas for quick checks I could do to try to diagnose this? The 4500S was in the small case and uses an extra 4-pin +12 cable. I think that means I can't just yank a supply out of any other machine (I don't have a spare 4500S around) and do a quick substitution to see if the problem goes away. I see I can buy replacement supplies, but I'd really rather be fairly confident what the problem is before I toss money at this. I now remember maybe a decade ago a Philips cdrw drive made a different computer have strange problems when the drive began failing, but I don't know if that might apply here. Any ideas or suggestions to help track this down would really be appreciated Thanks does it have a dedicated video card? if you do i would put that at the top of the list of suspects either because the fan on the video card failed or the card itself is failing. |
#4
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Puzzling Dimension 4500S overheating problem
In ,
Christopher Muto wrote: On 1/3/2012 3:31 AM, bill wrote: Ancient old 4500S sitting under a desk doing its job for lots of years. Has not been opened or had anyone fiddling or changing things. I would really like to not have to remember all the things it would take to configure a replacement right now. But it started failing, hanging, crashing, sometimes rebooting, etc. I did a quick check and the cpu and power supply fans are still spinning, no bulging capacitors, etc. I stumbled onto the fact that if I have a big box fan blowing hard against the open case that it runs just fine. So it has to be heat related, but nothing is clogged with lint and both fans are spinning just fine. As a last resort I even flipped the latch, lifted off the heat sink, there didn't appear to be anything cracked or burnt, still had a film of heat sink compound squeezed out around the edge of the cpu. Anyone have any tips or ideas for quick checks I could do to try to diagnose this? The 4500S was in the small case and uses an extra 4-pin +12 cable. I think that means I can't just yank a supply out of any other machine (I don't have a spare 4500S around) and do a quick substitution to see if the problem goes away. I see I can buy replacement supplies, but I'd really rather be fairly confident what the problem is before I toss money at this. I now remember maybe a decade ago a Philips cdrw drive made a different computer have strange problems when the drive began failing, but I don't know if that might apply here. Any ideas or suggestions to help track this down would really be appreciated Thanks does it have a dedicated video card? if you do i would put that at the top of the list of suspects either because the fan on the video card failed or the card itself is failing. I too thought of this. But bill stated it hasn't been cracked open by anybody and Dell specs says it comes with integrated graphics... so I didn't mention it. -- Bill Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2 Centrino Core Duo T2400 1.83GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3 |
#5
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Puzzling Dimension 4500S overheating problem
bill,
You should have a Utility partition on the HD. Run the Dell diagnostics. |
#6
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Puzzling Dimension 4500S overheating problem
Thanks for the polite responses.
Some (maybe all) thermal paste dries out and could even crack in time. I would clean both off with something approved for the purpose. And don't use any tool that would scratch anything. Nothing worse than cracking one open and some guy used a slotted screwdriver to remove the old paste. The "paste" appears to be an adhesive vinyl patch, still sticky. I gently rubbed that off, cleaned both surfaces with alcohol and applied some fresh Vantec heat sink compound. I don't know if your CPU has a temp sensor or not, but it wouldn't hurt to use one of those utilities to try. The 4500S, and at least one other model in the Dimension line, maybe all of them, have no temp sensor that can be read by a utility. Since I'd found that on a previous Dimension model I didn't think to check that before posting and should have. But we can't read temps. If we could that would easily narrow the search. Some claim that the fan speeds are temperature regulated, others dispute that Although I wouldn't focus too much attention to the CPU. As the problem is probably more likely to be RAM, power supply, etc. instead. I removed and reseated the RAM, but an Intel engineer did describe at a presentation how some key parts of the mechanical specifications for RAM sticks and sockets had been left out of the spec, there is no requirement that the edge be bevelled and polished and he claims that makes for a startlingly small number of insertions before the sockets won't meet spec any more. But there have only been a few insertions in the life of this box, counting those I just did. I removed and reseated the power connectors. does it have a dedicated video card? if you do i would put that at the top of the list of suspects either because the fan on the video card failed or the card itself is failing. Using integrated video. The only cards are network and modem. You should have a Utility partition on the HD. Run the Dell diagnostics. With the room fan blasting away against the open case all the Dell diagnostics pass just fine, well except for my having removed all media per directions and then the tests that depended on media being present in the floppy and CD failed. But to the point, 90 minutes of testing with zero "real" errors with "enhanced cooling." As an experiment, I unplugged the CDRW, ignored the warning errors, turned off the room fan and closed the case. It appears that as soon as it warms up it fails. That appears to eliminate the CDRW as a possible source. Letting it cool and then running the diagnostics appear to fail during whatever test happens to run when it gets hot enough, there does not appear to be a single specific test that fails after a few tries at this. I suppose it could be a bad solder joint. But I would expect those to show up years earlier than this. And finding, let alone fixing, one of those would be a miracle. The small case and smaller vents are inconvenient to try to duct tape a box fan over and enhance the cooling, but I might try that as a fix. Does anyone have any other ideas? Thanks again |
#7
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Puzzling Dimension 4500S overheating problem
On Jan 3, 11:00*pm, bill wrote:
Thanks for the polite responses. Some (maybe all) thermal paste dries out and could even crack in time. I would clean both off with something approved for the purpose. And don't use any tool that would scratch anything. Nothing worse than cracking one open and some guy used a slotted screwdriver to remove the old paste. The "paste" appears to be an adhesive vinyl patch, still sticky. I gently rubbed that off, cleaned both surfaces with alcohol and applied some fresh Vantec heat sink compound. I don't know if your CPU has a temp sensor or not, but it wouldn't hurt to use one of those utilities to try. The 4500S, and at least one other model in the Dimension line, maybe all of them, have no temp sensor that can be read by a utility. Since I'd found that on a previous Dimension model I didn't think to check that before posting and should have. But we can't read temps. If we could that would easily narrow the search. Some claim that the fan speeds are temperature regulated, others dispute that Although I wouldn't focus too much attention to the CPU. As the problem is probably more likely to be RAM, power supply, etc. instead. I removed and reseated the RAM, but an Intel engineer did describe at a presentation how some key parts of the mechanical specifications for RAM sticks and sockets had been left out of the spec, there is no requirement that the edge be bevelled and polished and he claims that makes for a startlingly small number of insertions before the sockets won't meet spec any more. But there have only been a few insertions in the life of this box, counting those I just did. I removed and reseated the power connectors. does it have a dedicated video card? *if you do i would put that at the top of the list of suspects either because the fan on the video card failed or the card itself is failing. Using integrated video. The only cards are network and modem. You should have a Utility partition on the HD. Run the Dell diagnostics.. With the room fan blasting away against the open case all the Dell diagnostics pass just fine, well except for my having removed all media per directions and then the tests that depended on media being present in the floppy and CD failed. But to the point, 90 minutes of testing with zero "real" errors with "enhanced cooling." As an experiment, I unplugged the CDRW, ignored the warning errors, turned off the room fan and closed the case. It appears that as soon as it warms up it fails. That appears to eliminate the CDRW as a possible source. Letting it cool and then running the diagnostics appear to fail during whatever test happens to run when it gets hot enough, there does not appear to be a single specific test that fails after a few tries at this. I suppose it could be a bad solder joint. But I would expect those to show up years earlier than this. And finding, let alone fixing, one of those would be a miracle. The small case and smaller vents are inconvenient to try to duct tape a box fan over and enhance the cooling, but I might try that as a fix. Does anyone have any other ideas? Thanks again Well, it could simply be old age creeping up on the 4500S, along with the rest of us. But I'll put my money on heat being the problem. Now what causes the heat. Well, obviously improper ventilation, but from what? Usually either the fan and the heat sink airways get clogged up. To deal with this, use a Q-tip to loosen any dirt from the fan and heat sink and compressed air to blow out dust and dirt. Next possible cause: heat sink making inadequate contact with top of CPU. Are both heat sink clips correctly attached? Last possible cause is the fan failing. Well, could be the power supply, too. These small form factor systems are nice because they take up little space. But they are prone to overheating, especially when placed in a somewhat confined area. Lucky the system ran so well for you for so long... Ben Myers |
#8
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Puzzling Dimension 4500S overheating problem
On Jan 3, 9:33*pm, Ben Myers wrote:
On Jan 3, 11:00*pm, bill wrote: cut. Does anyone have any other ideas? Well, it could simply be old age creeping up on the 4500S, along with the rest of us. *But I'll put my money on heat being the problem. *Now what causes the heat. *Well, obviously improper ventilation, but from what? *Usually either the fan and the heat sink airways get clogged up. *To deal with this, use a Q-tip to loosen any dirt from the fan and heat sink and compressed air to blow out dust and dirt. *Next possible cause: heat sink making inadequate contact with top of CPU. Are both heat sink clips correctly attached? *Last possible cause is the fan failing. *Well, could be the power supply, too. I tried to make it very clear from the beginning that this seemed to be a heat issue. And as I said in my first post, both the fans are freely spinning and putting out air. Both the fins on the heat sink and the housing of the power supply are surprisingly clean and not clogged, given the age. The 4500S heat sink is a hinged affair with a lever rotating a shaft that locks the sink in place, it is either firmly locked in place or not. I tried to do my homework and eliminate the simple obvious possibilities before bothering anyone with this. I've seen boxes from filthy environments with a centimeter lint layer coating everything and that isn't this box. Thanks |
#9
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Puzzling Dimension 4500S overheating problem
On Jan 3, 10:00*pm, bill wrote:
Thanks for the polite responses. Some (maybe all) thermal paste dries out and could even crack in time. I would clean both off with something approved for the purpose. And don't use any tool that would scratch anything. Nothing worse than cracking one open and some guy used a slotted screwdriver to remove the old paste. The "paste" appears to be an adhesive vinyl patch, still sticky. I gently rubbed that off, cleaned both surfaces with alcohol and applied some fresh Vantec heat sink compound. I don't know if your CPU has a temp sensor or not, but it wouldn't hurt to use one of those utilities to try. The 4500S, and at least one other model in the Dimension line, maybe all of them, have no temp sensor that can be read by a utility. Since I'd found that on a previous Dimension model I didn't think to check that before posting and should have. But we can't read temps. If we could that would easily narrow the search. Some claim that the fan speeds are temperature regulated, others dispute that Although I wouldn't focus too much attention to the CPU. As the problem is probably more likely to be RAM, power supply, etc. instead. I removed and reseated the RAM, but an Intel engineer did describe at a presentation how some key parts of the mechanical specifications for RAM sticks and sockets had been left out of the spec, there is no requirement that the edge be bevelled and polished and he claims that makes for a startlingly small number of insertions before the sockets won't meet spec any more. But there have only been a few insertions in the life of this box, counting those I just did. I removed and reseated the power connectors. does it have a dedicated video card? *if you do i would put that at the top of the list of suspects either because the fan on the video card failed or the card itself is failing. Using integrated video. The only cards are network and modem. You should have a Utility partition on the HD. Run the Dell diagnostics.. With the room fan blasting away against the open case all the Dell diagnostics pass just fine, well except for my having removed all media per directions and then the tests that depended on media being present in the floppy and CD failed. But to the point, 90 minutes of testing with zero "real" errors with "enhanced cooling." As an experiment, I unplugged the CDRW, ignored the warning errors, turned off the room fan and closed the case. It appears that as soon as it warms up it fails. That appears to eliminate the CDRW as a possible source. Letting it cool and then running the diagnostics appear to fail during whatever test happens to run when it gets hot enough, there does not appear to be a single specific test that fails after a few tries at this. I suppose it could be a bad solder joint. But I would expect those to show up years earlier than this. And finding, let alone fixing, one of those would be a miracle. The small case and smaller vents are inconvenient to try to duct tape a box fan over and enhance the cooling, but I might try that as a fix. Does anyone have any other ideas? Thanks again I think most chipsets have a heatsink...you could check the adhesive? Try the ram one stick at a time without the external fan. |
#10
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Puzzling Dimension 4500S overheating problem
In
, bill wrote: Thanks for the polite responses. Some (maybe all) thermal paste dries out and could even crack in time. I would clean both off with something approved for the purpose. And don't use any tool that would scratch anything. Nothing worse than cracking one open and some guy used a slotted screwdriver to remove the old paste. The "paste" appears to be an adhesive vinyl patch, still sticky. I gently rubbed that off, cleaned both surfaces with alcohol and applied some fresh Vantec heat sink compound. Oh? That sounds like it is (now was) a thermal pad. Those you don't do anything with. Not even clean them and remove the sticky stuff nor don't touch them with your fingers (oil from your fingers reduces the thermal contact). Well I am not sure how it works by removing the sticky stuff and putting thermal paste on. As I never tried that before. What most people do if the thermal pad needs replacement is to get another one or remove the old one and just use thermal paste instead. Some designs the heatsink won't fit close enough since it won't be as thick as the pad was. They sell copper plates for this purpose if you run into this same problem. I don't know if your CPU has a temp sensor or not, but it wouldn't hurt to use one of those utilities to try. The 4500S, and at least one other model in the Dimension line, maybe all of them, have no temp sensor that can be read by a utility. Since I'd found that on a previous Dimension model I didn't think to check that before posting and should have. But we can't read temps. If we could that would easily narrow the search. Some claim that the fan speeds are temperature regulated, others dispute that Yes it could be either or. Hard to say sitting here. Although I wouldn't focus too much attention to the CPU. As the problem is probably more likely to be RAM, power supply, etc. instead. I removed and reseated the RAM, but an Intel engineer did describe at a presentation how some key parts of the mechanical specifications for RAM sticks and sockets had been left out of the spec, there is no requirement that the edge be bevelled and polished and he claims that makes for a startlingly small number of insertions before the sockets won't meet spec any more. But there have only been a few insertions in the life of this box, counting those I just did. That claim is probably true. But I would say something like 999 out of a thousand probably outlast the machine anyway. It isn't like people reseat the RAM on a daily bases. Maybe more like once a year tops for most machines. Although reseating the RAM wasn't what I was referring too. I would run it with half of the RAM out and then run it by replacing the existing RAM with the other RAM. Or you could test the RAM with Memtest 86 (free). -- Bill Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2 Centrino Core Duo T2400 1.83GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3 |
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