If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
"w_tom" wrote in message ... In the real world, only those with a bean counter mentality have power supplies damaged by brownouts. When a power supply is damaged by a brownout, then the reason for failure is directly traceable to a human who failed to learn basic technology. May I ask just how many years experience YOU have in power supply, design, and construction in the commercial world (i.e., actually shipping this sort of product in volume)? Bob M. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Bob Myers wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message ... That's all good and nice reasoning which the designer already considered when he designed a power supply that is not damaged by brownouts. Or so you hope. One of the things I used to do (in a past life, but for my current employer) was to supervise the environmental, etc. qualification testing of new products. Do you think we never EVER found problems with power supply design that showed up in the AC line compatibility testing? It would be a truly wonderful world in which everything was designed as it should be, in which everything was actually BUILT per those designs, and in which the components that went into that construction never ever had any sort of problem of their own. Just as soon as you find that world, you let us know. Your ignorance is really showing up. If the specs are not met, that supply goes back on guarantee and it eventually will drive this supplyer out of business. In Europe we have now a 2years guarantee by law and believe it or not, when a part fails because of undervoltage the seller has to take it back and repair/replace it. Intel does not make power supplies? Underwriters Laboratory - UL - does not make anything. Therefore UL standards don't exist either? Both Intel-generated specifications exist, and UL standards exist. And so, according to you, everything ever designed and built automatically complies with those standards? Hallelujah! I can call down to the test lab right now, and tell those guys to take it easy! There's nothing more for them to do!!!! It is a criminal offense if UL-specs are not met, and if any personal injury happens you will pay big bucks. There is a responsability involved and if you fake the CE or UL or whatever rules apply in your country, you will be prosecuted. If a computer power supply is damaged by the brownout, then the brownout is not a reason for failure. That failure is directly traceable to the human who typically buys on price rather than first learn basic electricity concepts. If the power supply does not come with written specs - things they actually claim to do First, it's hardly reasonable to expect anyone who buys a power supply to be sufficiently educated in power supply design so as to recognize a good design or a bad one at first glance. (Hey, if they're THAT good, they should be designing and building their OWN, and then I know several places that will likely want to hire them!) Second - you again show an awful lot of faith in the mere presence of "written specs." Many aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Mr Meyer, you must be one of those bean counters. What a stupid and arrogant commentary. The consumer has a lot of laws on his side and especially in the US you better not deliver any sub-spec mercendise declared as being ok. If you buy at the surplus store or Ebay, you might end up with what you are descibing, but this stuff is not guaranteed meeting the specs. blame themselves. Brownouts do not damage properly constructed power supplies... ...as long as they were properly designed AND constructed, built from perfect components, and have suffered absolutely no ill effects due to age, electrical or mechanical stress, etc., since being built. By this same sort of reasoning, I should be able to claim that NOTHING which is "properly designed and built" should ever fail. Once again, the reliability guys will be SO glad to hear that... Bob M. -- ciao Ban Bordighera, Italy |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Here in the US we have 240/120 supplied to homes. If the grounded conductor
fails, the voltage can divide up as 100 and 140 or as 80 and 160 and so on depending on the loads at the time. Maybe that's what happened and it was overvoltage that fried the computers. |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
"Ban" wrote in message ... Your ignorance is really showing up. If the specs are not met, that supply goes back on guarantee and it eventually will drive this supplyer out of business. In Europe we have now a 2years guarantee by law and believe it or not, when a part fails because of undervoltage the seller has to take it back and repair/replace it. So if it fails within that 2 year period, great; do you believe that all suplies which fail due to an undervolt condition are within their warranty period? Or that simply because a failure DOES occur within the warranty period, that this MUST be indicative of a sufficiently widespread problem such that the supplier WILL be "driven out of business?" Again, if your model is correct, power supplies that don't meet spec should never be found in the real world. I claim that such things do, in fact, exist. Care to bet which of us can support their position through evidence? As to "my ignorance really showing" up, you're right - after 25+ years as an engineer working for one of the major computer companies, I clearly don't know squat about the realities of the electronics manufacturing business. Both Intel-generated specifications exist, and UL standards exist. And so, according to you, everything ever designed and built automatically complies with those standards? Hallelujah! I can call down to the test lab right now, and tell those guys to take it easy! There's nothing more for them to do!!!! It is a criminal offense if UL-specs are not met, and if any personal injury happens you will pay big bucks. Actually, it isn't, although that is a widespread misconception. The UL standards do not carry the force of law, nor is there any law making it a criminal offense to sell a product which is not UL certified or registered. UL compliance can and will enter into liability awards resulting from failed products, but that is a civil issue, not a criminal one. Further, simply obtaining UL certification basically just says that, IF built as designed from the specified components, the product can reasonably be expected to meet the specification in question. The nature of testing and statistics being what it is, this can never be a perfect assurance of 100% compliance, unless the product in question is subjected to extensive finished-product testing in 100% of the units shipped. Especially for consumer goods, this is basically never the case, with the exception of a few key specifications. And no testing can ever be a 100% guarantee of continued compliance for all time, for the reasons mentioned earlier having to do with aging, electrical and mechanical stress, and so forth. There is a responsability involved and if you fake the CE or UL or whatever rules apply in your country, you will be prosecuted. Yes, but that's not what's being discussed here. Forging a UL mark is irrelevant to the topic under consideration, which is the reliability and failure modes of power supplies. Mr Meyer, you must be one of those bean counters. What a stupid and arrogant commentary. The consumer has a lot of laws on his side and especially in the US you better not deliver any sub-spec mercendise declared as being ok. If you buy at the surplus store or Ebay, you might end up with what you are descibing, but this stuff is not guaranteed meeting the specs. Nope; I am not now, nor have I ever been, a "bean counter." It is simply a fact of life that NOT all products shipped will meet their published specifications 100%, and those which do will not continue to do so forever. Again, if you feel otherwise, please call up the head of our service and support organization, and inform them that everyone can go home now. What published specifications really mean, from a legitimate supplier, is that IF the product delivered does not meet the specifications (which generally can be considered as being a part of the purchase agreement - i.e., you did not agree to buy THIS product, but instead you actually agreed to buy a product which met these specifications), then you have the right to return it and expect a replacement. But simply publishing the specifications by no means is perfect assurance that every product shipped/received WILL actually meet its specs when it reaches the customer. SOMETIMES, this is due to shoddy design and/or manufacturing - but even the best manufacturer in the world for whatever product you're considering still has the occasional failure-upon-delivery. Welcome to the real world. Bob M. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
|
#16
|
|||
|
|||
|
#17
|
|||
|
|||
You may be interested in products by APE, they have a device that will shut
down the power supply if the voltage goes below a safe level. It sells from memory for around $80. Available from radio parts http://www.radioparts.com.au/ProdVie...oduct=12354978 Regards, Stephen Lakey. "Greg" wrote in message om... G'day from a long way away.... I am struggling with an argument about a couple of damaged home computers and I was wondering if anyone can help???? The switchboard for a suburban house was replaced in November 2003. Since February 03 various appliances in the house have failed, including three pcs. The owners believe that lower than stat limits voltage into the residence caused the failure. Since the switchboard was replaced the problems have stopped. Their electrician said that the switchboard was a 30 year old porcelain-fused model and was burning out on the busbar and the circuits on the board were overloaded with too many appliances. My question to you, if you would be so kind...."What chance is there that the slightly under supply of grid voltage would severely damage pcs, or, is the pc damage more likely to be as a result of the arcing at the switchboard?" Greg, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
"w_tom" wrote in message om... Unervoltage - also known as a brownout - does not damage electronics. Unfortunately too many take what they learned about motors and expolate that to knowledge about electronics. One must first learn basic concept before making assumptions such as low voltage will damage a computer. Undervoltage most certainly *can* damage electronics, some poorly designed SMPS's will attempt to compensate for the low line voltage and blow themselves up. Properly designed equipment won't do this, but there's a great deal of poorly designed junk on the market these days. |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
"Bob Myers" wrote in message ... "Ban" wrote in message ... Your ignorance is really showing up. If the specs are not met, that supply goes back on guarantee and it eventually will drive this supplyer out of business. In Europe we have now a 2years guarantee by law and believe it or not, when a part fails because of undervoltage the seller has to take it back and repair/replace it. So if it fails within that 2 year period, great; do you believe that all suplies which fail due to an undervolt condition are within their warranty period? Or that simply because a failure DOES occur within the warranty period, that this MUST be indicative of a sufficiently widespread problem such that the supplier WILL be "driven out of business?" Again, if your model is correct, power supplies that don't meet spec should never be found in the real world. I claim that such things do, in fact, exist. Care to bet which of us can support their position through evidence? As to "my ignorance really showing" up, you're right - after 25+ years as an engineer working for one of the major computer companies, I clearly don't know squat about the realities of the electronics manufacturing business. Both Intel-generated specifications exist, and UL standards exist. And so, according to you, everything ever designed and built automatically complies with those standards? Hallelujah! I can call down to the test lab right now, and tell those guys to take it easy! There's nothing more for them to do!!!! It is a criminal offense if UL-specs are not met, and if any personal injury happens you will pay big bucks. Actually, it isn't, although that is a widespread misconception. The UL standards do not carry the force of law, nor is there any law making it a criminal offense to sell a product which is not UL certified or registered. UL compliance can and will enter into liability awards resulting from failed products, but that is a civil issue, not a criminal one. Further, simply obtaining UL certification basically just says that, IF built as designed from the specified components, the product can reasonably be expected to meet the specification in question. The nature of testing and statistics being what it is, this can never be a perfect assurance of 100% compliance, unless the product in question is subjected to extensive finished-product testing in 100% of the units shipped. Especially for consumer goods, this is basically never the case, with the exception of a few key specifications. And no testing can ever be a 100% guarantee of continued compliance for all time, for the reasons mentioned earlier having to do with aging, electrical and mechanical stress, and so forth. There is a responsability involved and if you fake the CE or UL or whatever rules apply in your country, you will be prosecuted. Yes, but that's not what's being discussed here. Forging a UL mark is irrelevant to the topic under consideration, which is the reliability and failure modes of power supplies. Mr Meyer, you must be one of those bean counters. What a stupid and arrogant commentary. The consumer has a lot of laws on his side and especially in the US you better not deliver any sub-spec mercendise declared as being ok. If you buy at the surplus store or Ebay, you might end up with what you are descibing, but this stuff is not guaranteed meeting the specs. Nope; I am not now, nor have I ever been, a "bean counter." It is simply a fact of life that NOT all products shipped will meet their published specifications 100%, and those which do will not continue to do so forever. Again, if you feel otherwise, please call up the head of our service and support organization, and inform them that everyone can go home now. What published specifications really mean, from a legitimate supplier, is that IF the product delivered does not meet the specifications (which generally can be considered as being a part of the purchase agreement - i.e., you did not agree to buy THIS product, but instead you actually agreed to buy a product which met these specifications), then you have the right to return it and expect a replacement. But simply publishing the specifications by no means is perfect assurance that every product shipped/received WILL actually meet its specs when it reaches the customer. SOMETIMES, this is due to shoddy design and/or manufacturing - but even the best manufacturer in the world for whatever product you're considering still has the occasional failure-upon-delivery. Welcome to the real world. Bob M. I think anyone who actually works on real world products will quickly come to this same conclusion. Like it or not, there's a lot of pure garbage that ends up on store shelves. For every well designed piece of equipment I work on, I come across at least half a dozen things that make me want to find the engineer who designed it and smack them over the head with the thing. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
"Bob Myers" wrote in message ... "w_tom" wrote in message ... In the real world, only those with a bean counter mentality have power supplies damaged by brownouts. When a power supply is damaged by a brownout, then the reason for failure is directly traceable to a human who failed to learn basic technology. May I ask just how many years experience YOU have in power supply, design, and construction in the commercial world (i.e., actually shipping this sort of product in volume)? Bob M. Let's face it, the guy is a troll, spouting out all sorts of rubbish with nothing to back it up. The crossposting doesn't do anything to support his credibility either. It's a clear and proveable *fact* that some power supplies will fail when run at low line voltage, he may wish to stick his head in the sand and refuse to believe that such products are out there but they do exist and I would guess that a great many of them somehow manage to outlast their warranty period before failing, or fail due to other causes first. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Pinmod (voltage) on Duron 1800MHz | CroW | Overclocking AMD Processors | 4 | April 4th 05 02:23 AM |
P4G8X core voltage | Paul | Asus Motherboards | 1 | August 25th 04 12:32 PM |
8KNXP O/C issues (AGP voltage and more) | Squeeky | Gigabyte Motherboards | 8 | June 20th 04 12:31 AM |
CPU Core Voltage Too Low -> Crash? | Edward J. Neth | Gateway Computers | 27 | February 22nd 04 04:38 AM |
vcore mod a7n8x-x | Moods | Asus Motherboards | 1 | January 18th 04 10:23 AM |