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The Technology of PS3



 
 
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  #12  
Old November 15th 03, 12:53 AM
wogston
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Could Microsoft license Cell technology from IBM for Xbox2? Some have
suggested that Sony's lawyers would never allow it. Others have said
that IBM does not own the technology.


I didn't know lawyers made any executive decisions or did have any say in
allowing or disallowing executive decisions. I thought they were just
interface for leeching money from other companies and individuals.


  #13  
Old November 15th 03, 05:54 PM
Hans de Vries
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(lmurata) wrote in message . com...
(Hans de Vries) wrote in message . com...
(lmurata) wrote in message . com...


Actually, It IS the same slide, So Sony Cell == Blue Gene ?!?

What I meant was that the slide was changed to refer to cell and not
blue gene. Most think that Kutaragi simply made a mistake and forgot
to change the numbers. I usually point out why one would change the
text on the slide but forget to change the numbers also.


Blue Gene has changed a lot in the mean time... but it still doesn't
look like a PS2 or PS3.




Could Microsoft license Cell technology from IBM for Xbox2? Some have
suggested that Sony's lawyers would never allow it. Others have said
that IBM does not own the technology.


It seems so, It seems that Nintendo will use it as well.
See this press-release he

http://www.forbes.com/home_asia/news...tr1147955.html


" IBM vice president of technology and strategy Irving
Wladawsky-Berger said that the supercomputer used 1,000
microprocessors that are based on PowerPC microchip
technology. The PowerPC chip is currently used in Apple
Computer Inc. computers.

It is also the technology that will be the foundation
of the next generation of gaming consoles from Nintendo
Co. and Sony Corp., which IBM is working on, he said.

He said the chips were less expensive and consumed less
power than traditional microprocessors, making it possible
to pack the same amount of computing power into a smaller
space. Producing the chips in volume for gaming will help
offset the costs of building supercomputers, he said"

So indeed, Blue Gene/L == Cell now.

(maybe there will be Sony specific APU's although the fact that they
use the same presentation slides seems to suggest otherwise)

I didn't see any PS2/PS3 like 128 bit (4x32) bit SIMD in Blue Gene/L.
Rather 2x64 with two independent 64 bit Floating Point units. However,
it is relatively simple to implement dual 32 bit on those units by
re-using much of the hardware (like the multiplier Wallace trees).
Ideally would be something which is also compatible with Apple's
Altivec. IBM's realizes what mass-production can do I guess.

Blue Gene/L: http://sc-2002.org/paperpdfs/pap.pap207.pdf

Blue Gene/L released right now:

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&...land.ib m.com

Just imagine what it could mean, with Microsoft now included, If
Windows XP 64 runs not only on Xbox, but also on Playstation 3 !?
or even on Nintendo game consoles?

That would be quite an historical turning point.

Regards, Hans
  #14  
Old November 15th 03, 11:52 PM
Niels Jørgen Kruse
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I artiklen ,
(Hans de Vries) skrev:

(lmurata) wrote in message
. com...
Could Microsoft license Cell technology from IBM for Xbox2? Some have
suggested that Sony's lawyers would never allow it. Others have said
that IBM does not own the technology.


It seems so, It seems that Nintendo will use it as well.
See this press-release he

http://www.forbes.com/home_asia/news...tr1147955.html


" IBM vice president of technology and strategy Irving
Wladawsky-Berger said that the supercomputer used 1,000
microprocessors that are based on PowerPC microchip
technology. The PowerPC chip is currently used in Apple
Computer Inc. computers.


Equating the 440 core with the POWER4 core means that he is talking in
*very* broad terms.

It is also the technology that will be the foundation
of the next generation of gaming consoles from Nintendo
Co. and Sony Corp., which IBM is working on, he said.


This just means that some sort of PPC are in all of these.

He said the chips were less expensive and consumed less
power than traditional microprocessors, making it possible
to pack the same amount of computing power into a smaller
space. Producing the chips in volume for gaming will help
offset the costs of building supercomputers, he said"


Using the same cores in multiple products reduce development costs. The
silicon is *not* the same.

So indeed, Blue Gene/L == Cell now.

(maybe there will be Sony specific APU's although the fact that they
use the same presentation slides seems to suggest otherwise)

I didn't see any PS2/PS3 like 128 bit (4x32) bit SIMD in Blue Gene/L.
Rather 2x64 with two independent 64 bit Floating Point units. However,
it is relatively simple to implement dual 32 bit on those units by
re-using much of the hardware (like the multiplier Wallace trees).
Ideally would be something which is also compatible with Apple's
Altivec. IBM's realizes what mass-production can do I guess.

Blue Gene/L: http://sc-2002.org/paperpdfs/pap.pap207.pdf

Blue Gene/L released right now:


http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&...f&selm=bp2s7u%
24k3m%241
%40news.rchland.ibm.com

Just imagine what it could mean, with Microsoft now included, If
Windows XP 64 runs not only on Xbox, but also on Playstation 3 !?
or even on Nintendo game consoles?

That would be quite an historical turning point.


You got carried away. Certainly, if the Xbox2 chip is a 440 core plus lots
of SIMD, you can forget about emulating Xbox1 games.

--
Mvh./Regards, Niels Jørgen Kruse, Vanløse, Denmark
  #15  
Old November 16th 03, 04:10 AM
Nate Edel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In comp.arch Niels J?rgen Kruse wrote:
You got carried away. Certainly, if the Xbox2 chip is a 440 core plus lots
of SIMD, you can forget about emulating Xbox1 games.


How much can adding a cheap celeron cost? The hard part will be the video
system, but if it's pretty well virtualized with DirectX already and not
using NVidia-specific primitives, it should be able to use the rest of the
XBox2 processor core to do as well as the existing GPU.

--
Nate Edel http://www.nkedel.com/

"But Marge! I've never felt so accepted in my life. These people looked deep
into my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
  #19  
Old November 17th 03, 03:41 AM
Keith R. Williams
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Default

In article ,
says...
I artiklen , Keith R.
Williams skrev:

In article ,
says...
I artiklen ,
(Hans de Vries) skrev:

snipping much

Just imagine what it could mean, with Microsoft now included, If
Windows XP 64 runs not only on Xbox, but also on Playstation 3 !?
or even on Nintendo game consoles?

That would be quite an historical turning point.

You got carried away. Certainly, if the Xbox2 chip is a 440 core plus lots
of SIMD, you can forget about emulating Xbox1 games.


Why? Emulation of x86 on PPC is fairly well know to work.


....s...l...o...w...l...y....


Now wait just a minute. You stated that:

Equating the 440 core with the POWER4 core means that he is
talking in *very* broad terms.

Are you stating that you're talking about PPC here? Or are you
shifting to the specific core?

Emulating a ~700 MHz PIII with a 440, so that the difference wouldn't be too
painfully obvious, would be very difficult. Having copious SIMD resources is
no help.


Since (at least the mill I've been listening to) the 440 is
DEADBEEF, I don't think that's what is being proposed.

Some say that backwards compatibily is unimportant for consoles. On the
other hand, there are limits to how many consoles it is practical to have
hooked up at once.


I don't see this as the problem. I haven't' kept my P5s, but not
because I can't hook them up at once. OTOH, my son has his PC,
GC, PS2, and X-Box all hooked up.
  #20  
Old November 17th 03, 05:16 AM
Hans de Vries
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Niels Jørgen Kruse" wrote in message ...
I artiklen ,
(Hans de Vries) skrev:

(lmurata) wrote in message
. com...
Could Microsoft license Cell technology from IBM for Xbox2? Some have
suggested that Sony's lawyers would never allow it. Others have said
that IBM does not own the technology.


It seems so, It seems that Nintendo will use it as well.
See this press-release he

http://www.forbes.com/home_asia/news...tr1147955.html


" IBM vice president of technology and strategy Irving
Wladawsky-Berger said that the supercomputer used 1,000
microprocessors that are based on PowerPC microchip
technology. The PowerPC chip is currently used in Apple
Computer Inc. computers.


Equating the 440 core with the POWER4 core means that he is talking in
*very* broad terms.

It is also the technology that will be the foundation
of the next generation of gaming consoles from Nintendo
Co. and Sony Corp., which IBM is working on, he said.


This just means that some sort of PPC are in all of these.

He said the chips were less expensive and consumed less
power than traditional microprocessors, making it possible
to pack the same amount of computing power into a smaller
space. Producing the chips in volume for gaming will help
offset the costs of building supercomputers, he said"


Using the same cores in multiple products reduce development costs. The
silicon is *not* the same.


How many different PowerPC's can there be. How much resources can you
waist... One for Apple, one for Sony, one for Nintendo, one for Microsoft,
one for their own Servers...

Which one of the game chips should carry the overhead of the super-
computer interconnect. Or will buyers have a choice between Nintendo,
Play-station and Xbox flavored supercomputers? :^)

The use of a modified (32 bit) 440 core seems more like a prototyping
vehicle. The original BlueGene design used simple but multithreaded
processors (8 threads per processor) and 32 processors per chip.

One can only guess what the final product will be in 2006. I do not think
that either one of the two options above could successfully get Microsoft,
Sony and Nintendo to bet their game-console business on it.

I do think that a Power6 core could do just that. It should be less then
half the size of today's G5 based on the Power4 core when implemented in
65 nm technology. The Power6 will have a much higher clock speed (by
splitting the pipeline stages in two?) and is likely to support more (4?) threads.



So indeed, Blue Gene/L == Cell now.

(maybe there will be Sony specific APU's although the fact that they
use the same presentation slides seems to suggest otherwise)

I didn't see any PS2/PS3 like 128 bit (4x32) bit SIMD in Blue Gene/L.
Rather 2x64 with two independent 64 bit Floating Point units. However,
it is relatively simple to implement dual 32 bit on those units by
re-using much of the hardware (like the multiplier Wallace trees).
Ideally would be something which is also compatible with Apple's
Altivec. IBM's realizes what mass-production can do I guess.

Blue Gene/L: http://sc-2002.org/paperpdfs/pap.pap207.pdf

Blue Gene/L released right now:


http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&...f&selm=bp2s7u%
24k3m%241
%40news.rchland.ibm.com

Just imagine what it could mean, with Microsoft now included, If
Windows XP 64 runs not only on Xbox, but also on Playstation 3 !?
or even on Nintendo game consoles?

That would be quite an historical turning point.


You got carried away. Certainly, if the Xbox2 chip is a 440 core plus lots
of SIMD, you can forget about emulating Xbox1 games.


Games spend 90%+ of their time in directX-like libraries. The libraries don't
need emulation and can run in native PPC code.

Regards, Hans
 




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