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Motherboard Power Requirements



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 10th 05, 01:54 AM
arifi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Motherboard Power Requirements

Hello everyone,

At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
better and be more flexible.

The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom for
this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.

Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx" on
their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:

P5GD1-VM
P4GE-MX
P4R800-VM
P4P800-VM
P4BP-MX
P4S800-MX
P4SP-MX
P4SP-MX SE
P4V533-MX
P4VP-MX
A7N8X-VM
A7N8X-VM/400
P5S800-VM
K8S-MX

I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to find
conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system built
around one ot them would require.

The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU, 1x
SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the power
supply can drive.

There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above where
the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.

So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
speeds - no overclocking)

I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.

Many thanks in advance,
-arifi

  #2  
Old February 10th 05, 01:56 AM
arifi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ah, I forgot to mentione - an AMD solution is also perfectly acceptable
if the Power/Wattage ratio is higher there.

Cheers,
-arifi

  #3  
Old February 10th 05, 03:04 AM
Rob Stow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

arifi wrote:
Hello everyone,

At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
better and be more flexible.

The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom for
this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.

Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx" on
their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:

P5GD1-VM
P4GE-MX
P4R800-VM
P4P800-VM
P4BP-MX
P4S800-MX
P4SP-MX
P4SP-MX SE
P4V533-MX
P4VP-MX
A7N8X-VM
A7N8X-VM/400
P5S800-VM
K8S-MX

I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to find
conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system built
around one ot them would require.

The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU, 1x
SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the power
supply can drive.

There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above where
the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.

So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
speeds - no overclocking)

I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.

Many thanks in advance,
-arifi


Why not a Pentium M based system ?

Lots of reviews available these days, including
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=2342

Use a P-M instead of a piece of crap like a P4 will go a long
ways to helping you meet your power bugdet. The downside is that
it will cost significantly more.

Also consider using an Athlon64 2800+, 3000+, or 3200+. Either
will outperform a P4-2800 in just about everything and will save
about 25W on your power requirements. The power savings involved
in using an Athlon64 are not as large as those of using a
Pentium-M, but it would be a lot easier on the wallet.

As well, I have built a couple of systems using the A7N8X-VM that
you listed, as well as the older A7N266-VM. Put a mobile Athlon
XP-M 2500+ into one of those and you should have no problem
meeting both your power budget and your performance target.

You also don't give the slightest hint about what this "demo
system" of yours is supposed to demonstrate. If all you need to
do is show video or run presentations, an EPIA M10000 from VIA
does the job nicely. I used one of those last fall to make a
fanless system - including using a fanless 150W PSU - for
someone. That system is used in a board room to show video and
do things like output PowerPoint to a projector.

www.quietpc.com would be worth checking out.


--
Every cloud has a silver lining, even if you sometimes
have to drop a little acid before you can see it.
  #4  
Old February 10th 05, 10:46 AM
Arifi Koseoglu
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Rob Stow" wrote in message
news:2jzOd.346292$Xk.157379@pd7tw3no...
arifi wrote:
Hello everyone,

At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
better and be more flexible.

The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom for
this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.

Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx" on
their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:

P5GD1-VM
P4GE-MX
P4R800-VM
P4P800-VM
P4BP-MX
P4S800-MX
P4SP-MX
P4SP-MX SE
P4V533-MX
P4VP-MX
A7N8X-VM
A7N8X-VM/400
P5S800-VM
K8S-MX

I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to find
conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system built
around one ot them would require.

The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU, 1x
SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the power
supply can drive.

There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above where
the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.

So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
speeds - no overclocking)

I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.

Many thanks in advance,
-arifi


Why not a Pentium M based system ?

Lots of reviews available these days, including
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=2342

Use a P-M instead of a piece of crap like a P4 will go a long ways to
helping you meet your power bugdet. The downside is that it will cost
significantly more.

Also consider using an Athlon64 2800+, 3000+, or 3200+. Either will
outperform a P4-2800 in just about everything and will save about 25W on
your power requirements. The power savings involved in using an Athlon64
are not as large as those of using a Pentium-M, but it would be a lot
easier on the wallet.

As well, I have built a couple of systems using the A7N8X-VM that you
listed, as well as the older A7N266-VM. Put a mobile Athlon XP-M 2500+
into one of those and you should have no problem meeting both your power
budget and your performance target.

You also don't give the slightest hint about what this "demo system" of
yours is supposed to demonstrate. If all you need to do is show video or
run presentations, an EPIA M10000 from VIA does the job nicely. I used
one of those last fall to make a fanless system - including using a
fanless 150W PSU - for someone. That system is used in a board room to
show video and do things like output PowerPoint to a projector.

www.quietpc.com would be worth checking out.


--
Every cloud has a silver lining, even if you sometimes
have to drop a little acid before you can see it.


Hi Rob, and thanks for the information. I will look into the configurations
you mention - sadly the mobile versions are hard to find here except when in
a notebook ) .

And also, you are completely right about my not mentioning what the system
will be demoing - sorry - very important information. This system will be
running a Document Management and Workflow System along with a Webserver.
Well, although these seem like a lot of load, since the demos are done using
single-user scenarios, I do not expect any bottlenects other than the
performance of the Java engine behind the workflow and probably IIS.

Any other comments in light of this additional info ?

Thanks again,
-arifi


  #5  
Old February 10th 05, 11:05 AM
Arifi Koseoglu
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Arifi Koseoglu" wrote in message
...

"Rob Stow" wrote in message
news:2jzOd.346292$Xk.157379@pd7tw3no...
arifi wrote:
Hello everyone,

At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
better and be more flexible.

The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom for
this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.

Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx" on
their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:

P5GD1-VM
P4GE-MX
P4R800-VM
P4P800-VM
P4BP-MX
P4S800-MX
P4SP-MX
P4SP-MX SE
P4V533-MX
P4VP-MX
A7N8X-VM
A7N8X-VM/400
P5S800-VM
K8S-MX

I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to find
conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system built
around one ot them would require.

The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU, 1x
SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the power
supply can drive.

There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above where
the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.

So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
speeds - no overclocking)

I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.

Many thanks in advance,
-arifi


Why not a Pentium M based system ?

Lots of reviews available these days, including
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=2342

Use a P-M instead of a piece of crap like a P4 will go a long ways to
helping you meet your power bugdet. The downside is that it will cost
significantly more.

Also consider using an Athlon64 2800+, 3000+, or 3200+. Either will
outperform a P4-2800 in just about everything and will save about 25W on
your power requirements. The power savings involved in using an Athlon64
are not as large as those of using a Pentium-M, but it would be a lot
easier on the wallet.

As well, I have built a couple of systems using the A7N8X-VM that you
listed, as well as the older A7N266-VM. Put a mobile Athlon XP-M 2500+
into one of those and you should have no problem meeting both your power
budget and your performance target.

You also don't give the slightest hint about what this "demo system" of
yours is supposed to demonstrate. If all you need to do is show video or
run presentations, an EPIA M10000 from VIA does the job nicely. I used
one of those last fall to make a fanless system - including using a
fanless 150W PSU - for someone. That system is used in a board room to
show video and do things like output PowerPoint to a projector.

www.quietpc.com would be worth checking out.


--
Every cloud has a silver lining, even if you sometimes
have to drop a little acid before you can see it.


Hi Rob, and thanks for the information. I will look into the
configurations you mention - sadly the mobile versions are hard to find
here except when in a notebook ) .

And also, you are completely right about my not mentioning what the system
will be demoing - sorry - very important information. This system will be
running a Document Management and Workflow System along with a Webserver.
Well, although these seem like a lot of load, since the demos are done
using single-user scenarios, I do not expect any bottlenects other than
the performance of the Java engine behind the workflow and probably IIS.

Any other comments in light of this additional info ?

Thanks again,
-arifi


Gosh! nowadays I type faster than I think: I forgot to mention that the
system will be running on Windows 2000 Server SP4 + Microsoft SQL Server
2000 SP3a.

Cheers
-arifi




  #6  
Old February 10th 05, 02:06 PM
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article .com,
"arifi" wrote:

Hello everyone,

At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
better and be more flexible.

The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom for
this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.

Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx" on
their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:

P5GD1-VM
P4GE-MX
P4R800-VM
P4P800-VM
P4BP-MX
P4S800-MX
P4SP-MX
P4SP-MX SE
P4V533-MX
P4VP-MX
A7N8X-VM
A7N8X-VM/400
P5S800-VM
K8S-MX

I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to find
conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system built
around one ot them would require.

The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU, 1x
SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the power
supply can drive.

There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above where
the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.

So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
speeds - no overclocking)

I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.

Many thanks in advance,
-arifi


For power estimation purposes, you could go to the Intel motherboard
web page, and look at some boards there. Each board has a manual,
and there is a power estimate section.

http://developer.intel.com/design/motherbd/products.htm

This is the manual for the D915GAG (microATX builtin graphics)
These numbers are maximums, in every sense of the word.
I use these numbers only to get some idea of what the
non-CPU rails will be drawing.
ftp://download.intel.com/design/moth...g/C6860002.pdf

Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
Minimum loading 200.00W 3.30A 10.00A 900mA 0.03A 0.80A
Maximum loading 300.00W 6.00A 14.00A 16.00A 0.10A 1.40A

Based on their description, start with the minimum loading
spec. Your two DIMMs will add about 5W each. The +12V
draw, exclusive of the processor, would be for fans.
A Prescott P4 2.8/FSB800/1MB LGA775 has a TDP of 84 watts
(see page 74 table 5-1).

ftp://download.intel.com/design/Pent...s/30235101.pdf

The 84W comes from +12V. The Vcore converter could be
considered to be 90% efficient (based on the fact that the
MOSFETs and toroids don't get warm to the touch). The
+12V current required is thus (84/12)*(1/0.90)=7.8A .
(A 2.8GHz/FSB800/512KB Northwood is 69.7W == 6.45A)

Adding this together, and assuming the DIMM power comes
from +3.3V (3 amps to give the requires 10 watts), gives
a Prescott based 2.8Ghz system with power of:

Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
Minimum loading --- 3.30A 10.00A 0.9A 0.03A 0.80A
DIMMs --- 3.0A --- --- --- ---
Processor --- --- --- 7.8A --- ---
Disk drive --- --- 1.0A 0.5A --- ---
CD/RW Drive --- --- 1.0A 1.5A --- ---
Total 212.6W 6.30A 12.0A 10.7A 0.03A 0.80A
(Fan current included in the 0.9A minimum)

This online calculator will also work out powers for you.
http://takaman.jp/D/?english

Other details. The hard drive will draw 2 amps from +12V
while spinning up. (Since the processor doesn't run at
full power in the BIOS, this is not an issue. On a
system I measured with my ammeter, CPU power might be
about 50% of max, while sitting in the BIOS as the drive
spins up.)

The CD/RW will only draw the 1.5 amp number while spinning
as well. Optical drive currents drop substantially when they
are not in use (no CD in drive). The listed hard drive
current might be representative of a seek operation.

You can find replacement supplies. But it won't be
easy.

http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/prices/

There are a couple of 1U power supplies here. Due to the
small fan size, these will likely make a lot of noise
if you draw decent power from them.

http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/pro...ndex_hp_1u.htm

As Rob pointed out, there is a whole spectrum of power
saving solutions out there. But you'll need time to experiment
with them, to find the right one.

As for actual measured systems - these measurements are
exclusive of video card power. (My 9800pro video card
can draw , but when the video card is
working that hard, the processor generally cannot run
at full power, due to waiting for the video card to
complete operations. A FX5200 low performance type video
card, would eliminate that extra power.) There is one hard
drive and one CD on these systems.

These two systems are roughly equal in gaming computing power.
A fast video card can add 38W to the power numbers. This shows
you how close a real system would get to your 230W total rating.
With a FX5200 class video card, you would be in good shape.

(Processor current comes from +5V...)
A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
(running Prime95 = 106W)

(Processor current comes from +12V...)
P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
(running memtest86 = 113W)

The only thing that seems to be amiss, is Intel's user
manual estimates a large +5V consumption, and at least
with my P4C800-E, the power seems to come more from
+3.3V . This means, depending on which company makes the
motherboard, the same amount of power will be used, but
it could either be drawn heavily from +3.3V or +5V rail.

In the examples above, the AthlonXP board uses the +5V supply
to power the processor. Pentium4 and Athlon64 boards use
+12V to power the processor (that is why they both use the
2x2 power connector, for extra +12V current). Depending on
how the amps pan out on the various outputs of your power
supply, may help you decide whether a +5V powered processor
or a +12V powered processor, is the right answer.

As for Athlon64, the TDPs are listed here. Some of the
Athlon64's have very nice power numbers. Whether they will
work for you, really depends on whether your application mix
works well with Athlon64's strengths and weaknesses. If you
were building a gaming box, the Athlon64 would be the easy
choice.

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...docs/30430.pdf

HTH,
Paul
  #7  
Old February 10th 05, 04:28 PM
Rob Stow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Arifi Koseoglu wrote:
"Rob Stow" wrote in message
news:2jzOd.346292$Xk.157379@pd7tw3no...

arifi wrote:

Hello everyone,

At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
better and be more flexible.

The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom for
this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.

Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx" on
their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:

P5GD1-VM
P4GE-MX
P4R800-VM
P4P800-VM
P4BP-MX
P4S800-MX
P4SP-MX
P4SP-MX SE
P4V533-MX
P4VP-MX
A7N8X-VM
A7N8X-VM/400
P5S800-VM
K8S-MX

I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to find
conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system built
around one ot them would require.

The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU, 1x
SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the power
supply can drive.

There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above where
the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.

So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
speeds - no overclocking)

I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.

Many thanks in advance,
-arifi


Why not a Pentium M based system ?

Lots of reviews available these days, including
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...oc.aspx?i=2342

Use a P-M instead of a piece of crap like a P4 will go a long ways to
helping you meet your power bugdet. The downside is that it will cost
significantly more.

Also consider using an Athlon64 2800+, 3000+, or 3200+. Either will
outperform a P4-2800 in just about everything and will save about 25W on
your power requirements. The power savings involved in using an Athlon64
are not as large as those of using a Pentium-M, but it would be a lot
easier on the wallet.

As well, I have built a couple of systems using the A7N8X-VM that you
listed, as well as the older A7N266-VM. Put a mobile Athlon XP-M 2500+
into one of those and you should have no problem meeting both your power
budget and your performance target.

You also don't give the slightest hint about what this "demo system" of
yours is supposed to demonstrate. If all you need to do is show video or
run presentations, an EPIA M10000 from VIA does the job nicely. I used
one of those last fall to make a fanless system - including using a
fanless 150W PSU - for someone. That system is used in a board room to
show video and do things like output PowerPoint to a projector.

www.quietpc.com would be worth checking out.


--
Every cloud has a silver lining, even if you sometimes
have to drop a little acid before you can see it.



Hi Rob, and thanks for the information. I will look into the configurations
you mention - sadly the mobile versions are hard to find here except when in
a notebook ) .


I never have trouble finding a mobile Athlon XP at www.ncix.com -
at least on the Canadian side of their web site.
The also have a couple of Socket 479 boards for the Pentium-M
(and there really are only two options at the moment) but I had
no luck a few weeks ago when I tried to get a P-M processor from
them.

www.lynncomp.com has both XP-M and Pentium-M processors, as well
as motherboards for both.

And also, you are completely right about my not mentioning what the system
will be demoing - sorry - very important information. This system will be
running a Document Management and Workflow System along with a Webserver.
Well, although these seem like a lot of load, since the demos are done using
single-user scenarios, I do not expect any bottlenects other than the
performance of the Java engine behind the workflow and probably IIS.

Any other comments in light of this additional info ?


Yeah - forget about the EPIA option. :-)
Not enough horsepower.


Thanks again,
-arifi




--
Every cloud has a silver lining, even if you sometimes
have to drop a little acid before you can see it.
  #8  
Old February 10th 05, 06:41 PM
Arifi Koseoglu
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Paul" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"arifi" wrote:

Hello everyone,

At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
better and be more flexible.

The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom for
this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.

Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx" on
their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:

P5GD1-VM
P4GE-MX
P4R800-VM
P4P800-VM
P4BP-MX
P4S800-MX
P4SP-MX
P4SP-MX SE
P4V533-MX
P4VP-MX
A7N8X-VM
A7N8X-VM/400
P5S800-VM
K8S-MX

I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to find
conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system built
around one ot them would require.

The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU, 1x
SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the power
supply can drive.

There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above where
the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.

So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
speeds - no overclocking)

I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.

Many thanks in advance,
-arifi


For power estimation purposes, you could go to the Intel motherboard
web page, and look at some boards there. Each board has a manual,
and there is a power estimate section.

http://developer.intel.com/design/motherbd/products.htm

This is the manual for the D915GAG (microATX builtin graphics)
These numbers are maximums, in every sense of the word.
I use these numbers only to get some idea of what the
non-CPU rails will be drawing.
ftp://download.intel.com/design/moth...g/C6860002.pdf

Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
Minimum loading 200.00W 3.30A 10.00A 900mA 0.03A 0.80A
Maximum loading 300.00W 6.00A 14.00A 16.00A 0.10A 1.40A

Based on their description, start with the minimum loading
spec. Your two DIMMs will add about 5W each. The +12V
draw, exclusive of the processor, would be for fans.
A Prescott P4 2.8/FSB800/1MB LGA775 has a TDP of 84 watts
(see page 74 table 5-1).

ftp://download.intel.com/design/Pent...s/30235101.pdf

The 84W comes from +12V. The Vcore converter could be
considered to be 90% efficient (based on the fact that the
MOSFETs and toroids don't get warm to the touch). The
+12V current required is thus (84/12)*(1/0.90)=7.8A .
(A 2.8GHz/FSB800/512KB Northwood is 69.7W == 6.45A)

Adding this together, and assuming the DIMM power comes
from +3.3V (3 amps to give the requires 10 watts), gives
a Prescott based 2.8Ghz system with power of:

Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
Minimum loading --- 3.30A 10.00A 0.9A 0.03A 0.80A
DIMMs --- 3.0A --- --- --- ---
Processor --- --- --- 7.8A --- ---
Disk drive --- --- 1.0A 0.5A --- ---
CD/RW Drive --- --- 1.0A 1.5A --- ---
Total 212.6W 6.30A 12.0A 10.7A 0.03A 0.80A
(Fan current included in the 0.9A minimum)

This online calculator will also work out powers for you.
http://takaman.jp/D/?english

Other details. The hard drive will draw 2 amps from +12V
while spinning up. (Since the processor doesn't run at
full power in the BIOS, this is not an issue. On a
system I measured with my ammeter, CPU power might be
about 50% of max, while sitting in the BIOS as the drive
spins up.)

The CD/RW will only draw the 1.5 amp number while spinning
as well. Optical drive currents drop substantially when they
are not in use (no CD in drive). The listed hard drive
current might be representative of a seek operation.

You can find replacement supplies. But it won't be
easy.

http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/prices/

There are a couple of 1U power supplies here. Due to the
small fan size, these will likely make a lot of noise
if you draw decent power from them.

http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/pro...ndex_hp_1u.htm

As Rob pointed out, there is a whole spectrum of power
saving solutions out there. But you'll need time to experiment
with them, to find the right one.

As for actual measured systems - these measurements are
exclusive of video card power. (My 9800pro video card
can draw , but when the video card is
working that hard, the processor generally cannot run
at full power, due to waiting for the video card to
complete operations. A FX5200 low performance type video
card, would eliminate that extra power.) There is one hard
drive and one CD on these systems.

These two systems are roughly equal in gaming computing power.
A fast video card can add 38W to the power numbers. This shows
you how close a real system would get to your 230W total rating.
With a FX5200 class video card, you would be in good shape.

(Processor current comes from +5V...)
A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
(running Prime95 = 106W)

(Processor current comes from +12V...)
P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
(running memtest86 = 113W)

The only thing that seems to be amiss, is Intel's user
manual estimates a large +5V consumption, and at least
with my P4C800-E, the power seems to come more from
+3.3V . This means, depending on which company makes the
motherboard, the same amount of power will be used, but
it could either be drawn heavily from +3.3V or +5V rail.

In the examples above, the AthlonXP board uses the +5V supply
to power the processor. Pentium4 and Athlon64 boards use
+12V to power the processor (that is why they both use the
2x2 power connector, for extra +12V current). Depending on
how the amps pan out on the various outputs of your power
supply, may help you decide whether a +5V powered processor
or a +12V powered processor, is the right answer.

As for Athlon64, the TDPs are listed here. Some of the
Athlon64's have very nice power numbers. Whether they will
work for you, really depends on whether your application mix
works well with Athlon64's strengths and weaknesses. If you
were building a gaming box, the Athlon64 would be the easy
choice.

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...docs/30430.pdf

HTH,
Paul



Dear Paul,

Hello again, and of course MANY MANY THANKS for the (once again) very much
detailed information.

After reading your post, the case I mentioned actually arrived and I had the
chance to look at the actual label on the power supply: First of all, the
PSU has a label stating that it is a 350W PSU and not a 230W as we were told
by the supplier. HOWEVER, the ratings on the label are as follows:

-----------------------------------------------
+3.3V | +5V | +12V | -5V | -12V | +5VSB
7A | 13A | 6A | 0.5A | 0.8A | 1A
-----------------------------------------------
75W Max |-------| 9.6 W Max |-------
-----------------------------------------------
3 5 0 W
-----------------------------------------------

Now, here is how I interpret the label:

1. The 75W Max. under the +3.3V & +5V columns probably means that the
combined simultaneous load on these lines cannot exceed 75Watts, while the
+3.3V line can carry 3.3x7=23.1W and the +5V line 5x13=65W.

2. The +12V line is capable of producing 12x6=72W.

3. The 9.6W Max. under the -5V & -12V columns probably means that the
combined simultaneous load on these lines cannot exceed 9.6Watts, while
the -5V line can carry 5x0.5=2.5W and the -12V line 12x0.8=9.6W. Prescott
based 2.8Ghz

4. The +5VSB line is capable of producing 5x1=5W. (By the way, what does VSB
mean?)

5. Taking into account the 75W and 9.6W Maximums, and adding the +12V and
+5VSB powers, I calculate the actual total power to be 75 + 9.6 + (72) + (5)
= 161.6W YUCK !!! Is this calculation correct?? Where is the claimed 350W ??

You mention that the P4 and Athlon64 get their CPU power from the +12V line,
while the AthlonXP from the +5V line. The P42.8Prescott has a TDP of 84Watts
(your post) and the Athlon64 3000+ a Max. TDP of 89Watts (Athlon64 Power and
Thermal Data Sheet.)

Does that now mean that I cannot run either of these CPUs using this PSU or
am I missing something?

Under what conditions are the maximum Power levels reached? Typical loading
of CPU on the Demo system will be a sequence like [Short/Intermediate
Peak] - [Longer Idle] - [Short Peak] - [Longer Idle] - [Short/Intermediate
Peak] - [Longer Idle] ...

Here comes where I get confused again. In your post you mention:

(Processor current comes from +5V...)
A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
(running Prime95 = 106W)


(Processor current comes from +12V...)
P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
(running memtest86 = 113W)


Here you calculate the total Wattage by collecting values from all rails
(3.3, 5, 12). Then probably I should not expect all the CPU power from the
12V rail alone in the Athlon64 and Prescott cases... If so, I could still
use and Athlon64 or Prescott... But in your table you had put the 7.8A for
the CPU completely on the 12V line of the Prescott based 2.8Ghz system...Or
??

Confused... I hope I am not asking the obvious.

Many Thanks,
Cheers,
-arifi



  #9  
Old February 10th 05, 07:51 PM
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , "Arifi Koseoglu"
wrote:

"Paul" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"arifi" wrote:

Hello everyone,

At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
better and be more flexible.

The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom for
this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.

Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx" on
their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:

P5GD1-VM
P4GE-MX
P4R800-VM
P4P800-VM
P4BP-MX
P4S800-MX
P4SP-MX
P4SP-MX SE
P4V533-MX
P4VP-MX
A7N8X-VM
A7N8X-VM/400
P5S800-VM
K8S-MX

I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to find
conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system built
around one ot them would require.

The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU, 1x
SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the power
supply can drive.

There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above where
the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.

So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
speeds - no overclocking)

I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.

Many thanks in advance,
-arifi


For power estimation purposes, you could go to the Intel motherboard
web page, and look at some boards there. Each board has a manual,
and there is a power estimate section.

http://developer.intel.com/design/motherbd/products.htm

This is the manual for the D915GAG (microATX builtin graphics)
These numbers are maximums, in every sense of the word.
I use these numbers only to get some idea of what the
non-CPU rails will be drawing.
ftp://download.intel.com/design/moth...g/C6860002.pdf

Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
Minimum loading 200.00W 3.30A 10.00A 900mA 0.03A 0.80A
Maximum loading 300.00W 6.00A 14.00A 16.00A 0.10A 1.40A

Based on their description, start with the minimum loading
spec. Your two DIMMs will add about 5W each. The +12V
draw, exclusive of the processor, would be for fans.
A Prescott P4 2.8/FSB800/1MB LGA775 has a TDP of 84 watts
(see page 74 table 5-1).

ftp://download.intel.com/design/Pent...s/30235101.pdf

The 84W comes from +12V. The Vcore converter could be
considered to be 90% efficient (based on the fact that the
MOSFETs and toroids don't get warm to the touch). The
+12V current required is thus (84/12)*(1/0.90)=7.8A .
(A 2.8GHz/FSB800/512KB Northwood is 69.7W == 6.45A)

Adding this together, and assuming the DIMM power comes
from +3.3V (3 amps to give the requires 10 watts), gives
a Prescott based 2.8Ghz system with power of:

Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
Minimum loading --- 3.30A 10.00A 0.9A 0.03A 0.80A
DIMMs --- 3.0A --- --- --- ---
Processor --- --- --- 7.8A --- ---
Disk drive --- --- 1.0A 0.5A --- ---
CD/RW Drive --- --- 1.0A 1.5A --- ---
Total 212.6W 6.30A 12.0A 10.7A 0.03A 0.80A
(Fan current included in the 0.9A minimum)

This online calculator will also work out powers for you.
http://takaman.jp/D/?english

Other details. The hard drive will draw 2 amps from +12V
while spinning up. (Since the processor doesn't run at
full power in the BIOS, this is not an issue. On a
system I measured with my ammeter, CPU power might be
about 50% of max, while sitting in the BIOS as the drive
spins up.)

The CD/RW will only draw the 1.5 amp number while spinning
as well. Optical drive currents drop substantially when they
are not in use (no CD in drive). The listed hard drive
current might be representative of a seek operation.

You can find replacement supplies. But it won't be
easy.

http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/prices/

There are a couple of 1U power supplies here. Due to the
small fan size, these will likely make a lot of noise
if you draw decent power from them.


http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/pro...ndex_hp_1u.htm

As Rob pointed out, there is a whole spectrum of power
saving solutions out there. But you'll need time to experiment
with them, to find the right one.

As for actual measured systems - these measurements are
exclusive of video card power. (My 9800pro video card
can draw , but when the video card is
working that hard, the processor generally cannot run
at full power, due to waiting for the video card to
complete operations. A FX5200 low performance type video
card, would eliminate that extra power.) There is one hard
drive and one CD on these systems.

These two systems are roughly equal in gaming computing power.
A fast video card can add 38W to the power numbers. This shows
you how close a real system would get to your 230W total rating.
With a FX5200 class video card, you would be in good shape.

(Processor current comes from +5V...)
A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
(running Prime95 = 106W)

(Processor current comes from +12V...)
P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
(running memtest86 = 113W)

The only thing that seems to be amiss, is Intel's user
manual estimates a large +5V consumption, and at least
with my P4C800-E, the power seems to come more from
+3.3V . This means, depending on which company makes the
motherboard, the same amount of power will be used, but
it could either be drawn heavily from +3.3V or +5V rail.

In the examples above, the AthlonXP board uses the +5V supply
to power the processor. Pentium4 and Athlon64 boards use
+12V to power the processor (that is why they both use the
2x2 power connector, for extra +12V current). Depending on
how the amps pan out on the various outputs of your power
supply, may help you decide whether a +5V powered processor
or a +12V powered processor, is the right answer.

As for Athlon64, the TDPs are listed here. Some of the
Athlon64's have very nice power numbers. Whether they will
work for you, really depends on whether your application mix
works well with Athlon64's strengths and weaknesses. If you
were building a gaming box, the Athlon64 would be the easy
choice.


http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...docs/30430.pdf

HTH,
Paul



Dear Paul,

Hello again, and of course MANY MANY THANKS for the (once again) very much
detailed information.

After reading your post, the case I mentioned actually arrived and I had the
chance to look at the actual label on the power supply: First of all, the
PSU has a label stating that it is a 350W PSU and not a 230W as we were told
by the supplier. HOWEVER, the ratings on the label are as follows:

-----------------------------------------------
+3.3V | +5V | +12V | -5V | -12V | +5VSB
7A | 13A | 6A | 0.5A | 0.8A | 1A
-----------------------------------------------
75W Max |-------| 9.6 W Max |-------
-----------------------------------------------
3 5 0 W
-----------------------------------------------

Now, here is how I interpret the label:

1. The 75W Max. under the +3.3V & +5V columns probably means that the
combined simultaneous load on these lines cannot exceed 75Watts, while the
+3.3V line can carry 3.3x7=23.1W and the +5V line 5x13=65W.

2. The +12V line is capable of producing 12x6=72W.

3. The 9.6W Max. under the -5V & -12V columns probably means that the
combined simultaneous load on these lines cannot exceed 9.6Watts, while
the -5V line can carry 5x0.5=2.5W and the -12V line 12x0.8=9.6W. Prescott
based 2.8Ghz

4. The +5VSB line is capable of producing 5x1=5W. (By the way, what does VSB
mean?)

5. Taking into account the 75W and 9.6W Maximums, and adding the +12V and
+5VSB powers, I calculate the actual total power to be 75 + 9.6 + (72) + (5)
= 161.6W YUCK !!! Is this calculation correct?? Where is the claimed 350W ??

You mention that the P4 and Athlon64 get their CPU power from the +12V line,
while the AthlonXP from the +5V line. The P42.8Prescott has a TDP of 84Watts
(your post) and the Athlon64 3000+ a Max. TDP of 89Watts (Athlon64 Power and
Thermal Data Sheet.)

Does that now mean that I cannot run either of these CPUs using this PSU or
am I missing something?

Under what conditions are the maximum Power levels reached? Typical loading
of CPU on the Demo system will be a sequence like [Short/Intermediate
Peak] - [Longer Idle] - [Short Peak] - [Longer Idle] - [Short/Intermediate
Peak] - [Longer Idle] ...

Here comes where I get confused again. In your post you mention:

(Processor current comes from +5V...)
A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
(running Prime95 = 106W)


(Processor current comes from +12V...)
P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
(running memtest86 = 113W)


Here you calculate the total Wattage by collecting values from all rails
(3.3, 5, 12). Then probably I should not expect all the CPU power from the
12V rail alone in the Athlon64 and Prescott cases... If so, I could still
use and Athlon64 or Prescott... But in your table you had put the 7.8A for
the CPU completely on the 12V line of the Prescott based 2.8Ghz system...Or
??

Confused... I hope I am not asking the obvious.

Many Thanks,
Cheers,
-arifi


That has got to be the worst power supply I've ever seen.

Are you sure that isn't the *minimum* load ? Some supplies
have two sets of number, some minimum numbers and some
maximum numbers. The power supply will not regulate to
within 5% of nominal output voltage, unless the minimum
load is applied.

Is it possible for you to give more info about the
case and power supply you bought ? Do you have a
URL for a website, with details about the product,
and maybe a picture of the label on the power supply ?

I think you understand the basic principles. The power
supply has limits for the maximum current that can
come from any individual output, and there are also
limits for certain groups of outputs. The group limits
are caused by using a multi-winding transformer in the
output. If two windings are supplying current, the thermal
load on the transformer will bear some relationship to that
load. Thus, the label on the power supply will state a
combined total power for those outputs. The total power for
the power supply should also be based on some fundamental
limit of the supply (maybe the rating of the primary side
and switching components ?). In any case, all those limits
apply simultaneously, so you cannot exceed any output's
maximum current, neither can you exceed one of the group
power ratings.

If the ratings on that label are for real, you've got enough
power *maybe* for a Pentium-M or a Via EPIA. There isn't
enough current available on +5V or +12V to run any of the
motherboards I've got here (my home collection).

So, work on verifying that label.

The +5VSB stands for +5 volts standby. The +5VSB supply
continues to run when the computer is in S3 Standby. The
suspend to RAM function requires power to keep the memory
chips refreshed, and that comes from +5VSB. The +5VSB is
also used for any Wake on LAN, Wake on Ring, or similar
functions, that require portions of the other chips to be
operational while the computer is in standby. These days,
2 amps is a good number for +5VSB. If you only have
one amp to work with, then all wake functions and any
USB/keyboard header settings must be set not to use +5VSB.

My measurements for my A7N8X-E and P4C800-E were done with
a clamp-on DC ammeter. This is a device based on a Hall
probe, that converts the magnetic field around a conductor
into a voltage. My meter will measure AC or DC current in
a conductor, by simply clamping the meter around a
conductor or a group of conductors (the magnetic fields add).

This is how I measured my home systems. You grab all the +5V
wires on the ATX 20 pin power cable and put them in the jaws
of one of these, then measure the current flowing in the
bundle of wires. Useful for determining how close to the
limits you are. Mine cost $400 Canadian.

http://www.extechproducts.com/produc...41_942_947.pdf

Paul
  #10  
Old February 11th 05, 10:11 AM
Arifi Koseoglu
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Paul" wrote in message
...
In article , "Arifi Koseoglu"
wrote:

"Paul" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"arifi" wrote:

Hello everyone,

At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
better and be more flexible.

The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom
for
this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.

Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx"
on
their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:

P5GD1-VM
P4GE-MX
P4R800-VM
P4P800-VM
P4BP-MX
P4S800-MX
P4SP-MX
P4SP-MX SE
P4V533-MX
P4VP-MX
A7N8X-VM
A7N8X-VM/400
P5S800-VM
K8S-MX

I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to
find
conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system
built
around one ot them would require.

The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU,
1x
SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the
power
supply can drive.

There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above
where
the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.

So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
speeds - no overclocking)

I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.

Many thanks in advance,
-arifi

For power estimation purposes, you could go to the Intel motherboard
web page, and look at some boards there. Each board has a manual,
and there is a power estimate section.

http://developer.intel.com/design/motherbd/products.htm

This is the manual for the D915GAG (microATX builtin graphics)
These numbers are maximums, in every sense of the word.
I use these numbers only to get some idea of what the
non-CPU rails will be drawing.
ftp://download.intel.com/design/moth...g/C6860002.pdf

Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
Minimum loading 200.00W 3.30A 10.00A 900mA 0.03A 0.80A
Maximum loading 300.00W 6.00A 14.00A 16.00A 0.10A 1.40A

Based on their description, start with the minimum loading
spec. Your two DIMMs will add about 5W each. The +12V
draw, exclusive of the processor, would be for fans.
A Prescott P4 2.8/FSB800/1MB LGA775 has a TDP of 84 watts
(see page 74 table 5-1).

ftp://download.intel.com/design/Pent...s/30235101.pdf

The 84W comes from +12V. The Vcore converter could be
considered to be 90% efficient (based on the fact that the
MOSFETs and toroids don't get warm to the touch). The
+12V current required is thus (84/12)*(1/0.90)=7.8A .
(A 2.8GHz/FSB800/512KB Northwood is 69.7W == 6.45A)

Adding this together, and assuming the DIMM power comes
from +3.3V (3 amps to give the requires 10 watts), gives
a Prescott based 2.8Ghz system with power of:

Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
Minimum loading --- 3.30A 10.00A 0.9A 0.03A 0.80A
DIMMs --- 3.0A --- --- --- ---
Processor --- --- --- 7.8A --- ---
Disk drive --- --- 1.0A 0.5A --- ---
CD/RW Drive --- --- 1.0A 1.5A --- ---
Total 212.6W 6.30A 12.0A 10.7A 0.03A 0.80A
(Fan current included in the 0.9A minimum)

This online calculator will also work out powers for you.
http://takaman.jp/D/?english

Other details. The hard drive will draw 2 amps from +12V
while spinning up. (Since the processor doesn't run at
full power in the BIOS, this is not an issue. On a
system I measured with my ammeter, CPU power might be
about 50% of max, while sitting in the BIOS as the drive
spins up.)

The CD/RW will only draw the 1.5 amp number while spinning
as well. Optical drive currents drop substantially when they
are not in use (no CD in drive). The listed hard drive
current might be representative of a seek operation.

You can find replacement supplies. But it won't be
easy.

http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/prices/

There are a couple of 1U power supplies here. Due to the
small fan size, these will likely make a lot of noise
if you draw decent power from them.


http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/pro...ndex_hp_1u.htm

As Rob pointed out, there is a whole spectrum of power
saving solutions out there. But you'll need time to experiment
with them, to find the right one.

As for actual measured systems - these measurements are
exclusive of video card power. (My 9800pro video card
can draw , but when the video card is
working that hard, the processor generally cannot run
at full power, due to waiting for the video card to
complete operations. A FX5200 low performance type video
card, would eliminate that extra power.) There is one hard
drive and one CD on these systems.

These two systems are roughly equal in gaming computing power.
A fast video card can add 38W to the power numbers. This shows
you how close a real system would get to your 230W total rating.
With a FX5200 class video card, you would be in good shape.

(Processor current comes from +5V...)
A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
(running Prime95 = 106W)

(Processor current comes from +12V...)
P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
(running memtest86 = 113W)

The only thing that seems to be amiss, is Intel's user
manual estimates a large +5V consumption, and at least
with my P4C800-E, the power seems to come more from
+3.3V . This means, depending on which company makes the
motherboard, the same amount of power will be used, but
it could either be drawn heavily from +3.3V or +5V rail.

In the examples above, the AthlonXP board uses the +5V supply
to power the processor. Pentium4 and Athlon64 boards use
+12V to power the processor (that is why they both use the
2x2 power connector, for extra +12V current). Depending on
how the amps pan out on the various outputs of your power
supply, may help you decide whether a +5V powered processor
or a +12V powered processor, is the right answer.

As for Athlon64, the TDPs are listed here. Some of the
Athlon64's have very nice power numbers. Whether they will
work for you, really depends on whether your application mix
works well with Athlon64's strengths and weaknesses. If you
were building a gaming box, the Athlon64 would be the easy
choice.


http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...docs/30430.pdf

HTH,
Paul



Dear Paul,

Hello again, and of course MANY MANY THANKS for the (once again) very
much
detailed information.

After reading your post, the case I mentioned actually arrived and I had
the
chance to look at the actual label on the power supply: First of all, the
PSU has a label stating that it is a 350W PSU and not a 230W as we were
told
by the supplier. HOWEVER, the ratings on the label are as follows:

-----------------------------------------------
+3.3V | +5V | +12V | -5V | -12V | +5VSB
7A | 13A | 6A | 0.5A | 0.8A | 1A
-----------------------------------------------
75W Max |-------| 9.6 W Max |-------
-----------------------------------------------
3 5 0 W
-----------------------------------------------

Now, here is how I interpret the label:

1. The 75W Max. under the +3.3V & +5V columns probably means that the
combined simultaneous load on these lines cannot exceed 75Watts, while
the
+3.3V line can carry 3.3x7=23.1W and the +5V line 5x13=65W.

2. The +12V line is capable of producing 12x6=72W.

3. The 9.6W Max. under the -5V & -12V columns probably means that the
combined simultaneous load on these lines cannot exceed 9.6Watts, while
the -5V line can carry 5x0.5=2.5W and the -12V line 12x0.8=9.6W. Prescott
based 2.8Ghz

4. The +5VSB line is capable of producing 5x1=5W. (By the way, what does
VSB
mean?)

5. Taking into account the 75W and 9.6W Maximums, and adding the +12V and
+5VSB powers, I calculate the actual total power to be 75 + 9.6 + (72) +
(5)
= 161.6W YUCK !!! Is this calculation correct?? Where is the claimed 350W
??

You mention that the P4 and Athlon64 get their CPU power from the +12V
line,
while the AthlonXP from the +5V line. The P42.8Prescott has a TDP of
84Watts
(your post) and the Athlon64 3000+ a Max. TDP of 89Watts (Athlon64 Power
and
Thermal Data Sheet.)

Does that now mean that I cannot run either of these CPUs using this PSU
or
am I missing something?

Under what conditions are the maximum Power levels reached? Typical
loading
of CPU on the Demo system will be a sequence like [Short/Intermediate
Peak] - [Longer Idle] - [Short Peak] - [Longer Idle] -
[Short/Intermediate
Peak] - [Longer Idle] ...

Here comes where I get confused again. In your post you mention:

(Processor current comes from +5V...)
A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
(running Prime95 = 106W)


(Processor current comes from +12V...)
P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
(running memtest86 = 113W)


Here you calculate the total Wattage by collecting values from all rails
(3.3, 5, 12). Then probably I should not expect all the CPU power from
the
12V rail alone in the Athlon64 and Prescott cases... If so, I could still
use and Athlon64 or Prescott... But in your table you had put the 7.8A
for
the CPU completely on the 12V line of the Prescott based 2.8Ghz
system...Or
??

Confused... I hope I am not asking the obvious.

Many Thanks,
Cheers,
-arifi


That has got to be the worst power supply I've ever seen.

Are you sure that isn't the *minimum* load ? Some supplies
have two sets of number, some minimum numbers and some
maximum numbers. The power supply will not regulate to
within 5% of nominal output voltage, unless the minimum
load is applied.

Is it possible for you to give more info about the
case and power supply you bought ? Do you have a
URL for a website, with details about the product,
and maybe a picture of the label on the power supply ?

I think you understand the basic principles. The power
supply has limits for the maximum current that can
come from any individual output, and there are also
limits for certain groups of outputs. The group limits
are caused by using a multi-winding transformer in the
output. If two windings are supplying current, the thermal
load on the transformer will bear some relationship to that
load. Thus, the label on the power supply will state a
combined total power for those outputs. The total power for
the power supply should also be based on some fundamental
limit of the supply (maybe the rating of the primary side
and switching components ?). In any case, all those limits
apply simultaneously, so you cannot exceed any output's
maximum current, neither can you exceed one of the group
power ratings.

If the ratings on that label are for real, you've got enough
power *maybe* for a Pentium-M or a Via EPIA. There isn't
enough current available on +5V or +12V to run any of the
motherboards I've got here (my home collection).

So, work on verifying that label.

The +5VSB stands for +5 volts standby. The +5VSB supply
continues to run when the computer is in S3 Standby. The
suspend to RAM function requires power to keep the memory
chips refreshed, and that comes from +5VSB. The +5VSB is
also used for any Wake on LAN, Wake on Ring, or similar
functions, that require portions of the other chips to be
operational while the computer is in standby. These days,
2 amps is a good number for +5VSB. If you only have
one amp to work with, then all wake functions and any
USB/keyboard header settings must be set not to use +5VSB.

My measurements for my A7N8X-E and P4C800-E were done with
a clamp-on DC ammeter. This is a device based on a Hall
probe, that converts the magnetic field around a conductor
into a voltage. My meter will measure AC or DC current in
a conductor, by simply clamping the meter around a
conductor or a group of conductors (the magnetic fields add).

This is how I measured my home systems. You grab all the +5V
wires on the ATX 20 pin power cable and put them in the jaws
of one of these, then measure the current flowing in the
bundle of wires. Useful for determining how close to the
limits you are. Mine cost $400 Canadian.

http://www.extechproducts.com/produc...41_942_947.pdf

Paul



Dear Paul,

The web site of the company producing (actually, importing from China) the
case does not have any details on the PSU, so I removed the PSU from the
case, scanned the three sides on which the label was wrapped, combined the
three images and put the file on our web site:

http://www.mind2biz.com/download/codegen_psu_label.jpg

The case's web page is:

http://www.codegen.com.tr/desktop/ms-2.htm

We have the MS2-G7, which is the same as the MS2-G10 except for the color.
Some translation for the Turkish terms on that page (not that you wouldn't
be able to figure it out): "Boyutlar" means "Dimensions", "Surucu Yuvalari"
means "Drive Bays" and "Ses & Mikrofon" means "Sound and Microphone"

The actual dimensions of the PSU, if relevant, are 45mm x 80mm x 220mm (1.8"
x 3.2" x 8.8") (WxHxD), and it has two 4cm (1.6") fans, one one each end.

Here we have 220V/50Hz mains.

Pentium-M is hard to find here and importing from outside Turkey has too
much paperwork and extra costs attached. Of course, another case could be an
option, but strangely, this brand is the only one supplying these "slim"
ones and portability is also a factor.

Now, assuming that the information on the label's picture will not bring any
good news (but hoping for the opposite), should ve resort to plain AthlonXPs
and older P4s? For example, AMD documentation
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...docs/26237.PDF
states that an AthlonXP 2800+ draws a max. of 68.3W, which is just slightly
above the 65Watts that can be drawn (according to its label) from the +5V
line of this PSU. Similar options may be available for the P4 family too...

When is the "Max" power needed? When the CPU is running at 100% capacity
according to Windows Task Manager, is it also drawing the max. current /
power from the PSU? Is the duration a factor here?

Many thanks *again*,
Best,
-arifi


 




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