1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility

On 05/03/2013 06:59 PM, John Larkin wrote:

Inert gas, sealed capsule, under antartic ice, lots of redundant copies, most
media would probably last 1000 years.

This is about media being used during these 1000 years as a source of
firmware and operating systems to keep the robotic facility functional.

On 05/03/2013 03:32 PM, Uwe Hercksen wrote:


Bernhard Kuemel schrieb:

Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only
minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good
storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic)
capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras,
actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably
difficult.

Hello,

I think it is too optimistic to believe that all the needed parts will
survive 1000 years, even if stored as spare parts.
All metallic contact surfaces will oxidize.

http://www.norsam.com/nanorosettawp.html claims about nickel data
plates: "Nickel has a much longer life span than microfilm up to
thousands of years." Something like nickel or gold might solve this
problem. Lots of precious metals might attract thieves, though.

Plastic parts will degrade.

Polyethyleneterephtalate (PET) microfilm is thought to last up to 700
years. So maybe Teflon can last 1000 years.

Isolations will fail.

There are teflon insulated cables.

A building that should provide good storage conditions would not survive
this long time.

Egyptian pyramids are over 4000 years old. They may not be in sufficient
condition, but I still have hope that with improved
technology/possibilities we can build something that lasts 1000 years.
But the daily temperature changes in the Australian desert certainly
require very durable building materials. Glass ceramics come to my mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-ceramic

Bernhard

Bernhard Kuemel wrote:
On 05/03/2013 03:32 PM, Uwe Hercksen wrote:

Bernhard Kuemel schrieb:

Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only
minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good
storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic)
capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras,
actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably
difficult.
Hello,

I think it is too optimistic to believe that all the needed parts will
survive 1000 years, even if stored as spare parts.
All metallic contact surfaces will oxidize.

http://www.norsam.com/nanorosettawp.html claims about nickel data
plates: "Nickel has a much longer life span than microfilm up to
thousands of years." Something like nickel or gold might solve this
problem. Lots of precious metals might attract thieves, though.


It's so thin, not worth the theft. To reduce the temptation cover it
with something so it isn't shiny. Vandalism is much more of a concern.


Plastic parts will degrade.

Polyethyleneterephtalate (PET) microfilm is thought to last up to 700
years. So maybe Teflon can last 1000 years.


I'd trust metal on glass and similar structures much more. A lot of
times adverse effects in modern materials only become discovered decades
after the fat. Like the spontaneous combustion that happened in old
movie archives.


Isolations will fail.

There are teflon insulated cables.


Even here it may be best to stay with the true and tried. I have a
transformer that's probably almost 100 years old, the secondary is
copper insulated with cloth. Looks like new. If something shows next to
no decay over a hundred years chances are it may last another 900 years.
With modern plastics we often don't really know.


A building that should provide good storage conditions would not survive
this long time.

Egyptian pyramids are over 4000 years old. They may not be in sufficient
condition, but I still have hope that with improved
technology/possibilities we can build something that lasts 1000 years.
But the daily temperature changes in the Australian desert certainly
require very durable building materials. Glass ceramics come to my mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-ceramic


Unless there is a continuous stream of money from pharaohs, king or
admission-paying tourists even pyramids fall apart:

http://philipcoppens.com/nap_art3.html

The other problem is theft of building materials from the actual
buildings. AFAIK it already started with the Ottomans raiding the
pyramids for limestone. Guess they were not willing to pay full retail
pricing ...

BTW, you might want to build the robot with through-hole parts. That
reduces the chance that someone turns it on in 998 years, doesn't work,
and a hair crack is discovered in a big ceramic cap.

I wonder what an extended 1000-year warranty would cost :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
It's likely that whatever scheme you offer, would also prevent access
to the preserved data, thus making regular verification difficult. How
do you know that the data is still there without taking a big risk in
trying to read and verify it? You can bury your time capsule, but you
still couldn't prove that the data is still there.

But maybe you could have some fun anyway.
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php...&id=1915#comic

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

On Fri, 03 May 2013 09:59:24 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

Inert gas, sealed capsule, under antartic ice, lots of redundant copies, most
media would probably last 1000 years.

That might work if the magnetic poles don't shift, if AGW doesn't make
the ice disappear, or the desiccant doesn't saturate and moisture
condenses on everything. Probably a few dozen other things that can
go wrong. However, that's not the real problem. In 1000 years, the
English language is likely to change into something unrecognizable.
Compare modern English with Middle English from about 1400:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English#Sample_texts
That's only 600 years old and I can only imagine what it will be like
in 1000 years. In electronic format, there's also the non-trivial
problem of being able to actually read the data. Got anything handy
that will read an 8" floppy, Maxtor WORM drive, Syquest removable HD,
or Bernoulli disk? What can one do if some obscure i/o chip needed
read memory blows up and nobody has a replacement? I'm sure that
there will be a 3D silicon printer to make your own chips, but who
will be able to find the data sheet? Got any Signetics DCL 8000 chips
handy, which is only 41 years old?
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/signetics/_dataBooks/1972_Signetics_SSI_8400_8800_TTL_DTL.pdf
Of course, one can't use anything with fusible links or polysilicon
fuses as these will either blow from EMP, corrosion, or current
induced metal migration. However, if one must use a PLA, the
programming instructions should probably be included, assuming someone
would be able to read them in 1000 years.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2013-05-03, Bernhard Kuemel wrote:
Sorry for repost, I posted to sci.electronics before, which does not exist.

Hi!

I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware
(exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years. One of the
problems is to maintain firmware and operating systems for this period.
What methods do you think are suitable?

Top priority is it must work about 1000 years. Price is not a big issue,
if necessary.

for the master copy: core rope memory.
you said price not a big issue, that'll test how not-big it really is.

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Fri, 03 May 2013 16:25:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 03 May 2013 09:59:24 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

Inert gas, sealed capsule, under antartic ice, lots of redundant copies, most
media would probably last 1000 years.

That might work if the magnetic poles don't shift, if AGW doesn't make
the ice disappear, or the desiccant doesn't saturate and moisture
condenses on everything. Probably a few dozen other things that can
go wrong. However, that's not the real problem. In 1000 years, the
English language is likely to change into something unrecognizable.
Compare modern English with Middle English from about 1400:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English#Sample_texts

Jane Austen is perfectly readable, as is Sir Walter Scott. Shakespeare
can get tricky. Chaucer is very hard to read.

People tell me that Spanish, like Cervantes, has changed very little
compared to English.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation

On Fri, 03 May 2013 22:49:51 +0200, the renowned Bernhard Kuemel
wrote:

On 05/03/2013 04:43 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware
(exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years. One of the
problems is to maintain firmware and operating systems for this period.
What methods do you think are suitable?

Cryogenic storage of parts that can stand thermal cycling and cold
temperatures (should be most of them) should reduce most mechanisms of
failure. For example, liquid nitrogen temperatures (77K) would reduce
aging, in theory, by 2^20 or about 10^6:1, so the items would age
maybe the equivalent of 8 hours in 1000 years.

I'm worried that components or assemblies (circuit boards with
components) crack or break with large temperature changes due to
different thermal expansion coefficients.

Probably would not end well with BGA lead-free boards, or QFN boards.

Through hole and gull wing SMT parts with leaded solder seem to do
fine, even with thermal shock. Cycling over the military temperature
range (-55~105°C) is a similar change, however it's not centered at
room temperature, so the stress could be greater.

Also keeping liquid nitrogen around continously for 1000 years on
earth is non-trivial.

Absolutely. That's what this is all about. Linde machines probably won't
last long enough. Peltier coolers don't cool deep enough. I'm waiting
for adiabatic demagnetization of gadolinium alloy coolers.

Bernhard

I wonder if you could make something almost passive that would cool
to, say, dry ice temperatures using radiative cooling into a desert
night sky.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Fri, 03 May 2013 18:28:17 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

On Fri, 03 May 2013 16:25:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 03 May 2013 09:59:24 -0700, John Larkin
wrote:

Inert gas, sealed capsule, under antartic ice, lots of redundant copies, most
media would probably last 1000 years.

That might work if the magnetic poles don't shift, if AGW doesn't make
the ice disappear, or the desiccant doesn't saturate and moisture
condenses on everything. Probably a few dozen other things that can
go wrong. However, that's not the real problem. In 1000 years, the
English language is likely to change into something unrecognizable.
Compare modern English with Middle English from about 1400:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English#Sample_texts

Jane Austen is perfectly readable, as is Sir Walter Scott. Shakespeare
can get tricky. Chaucer is very hard to read.

That's because the English language changed radically during that
period. Note the dates below.
1775 - 1817 Jane Austen
1771 - 1832 Sir Walter Scott
1564 - 1615 Bill Shakespear
1343 - 1400 Geoffry Chaucer
The later authors wrote in Modern English. Chaucer wrote in Middle
English. Modern English is fairly readable, but only 400 years old.
Go back another 100 years and it's a mess. Another 200 years back and
the Olde English is completely undecipherable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English#Text_samples

People tell me that Spanish, like Cervantes, has changed very little
compared to English.

Also Latin, which was the reason that the legal profession adopted it
as their favored language. Since it's a dead language, it's unlikely
to change. Therefore legal definitions, interpretations, judgments,
and laws will not change over the years.

However, that's not the case with a living language, such as English.
It changes in many ways, all of which are beyond the control of any
official language police. At the present rate that technology,
ethnicity, and advertising are butchering the language, it's unlikely
that it will remain in its present form for very long. 1000 years
from now, it will look as strange as Olde English.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Bernhard Kuemel wrote:
Sorry for repost, I posted to sci.electronics before, which does not exist.

Hi!

I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware
(exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years. One of the
problems is to maintain firmware and operating systems for this period.
What methods do you think are suitable?

Top priority is it must work about 1000 years. Price is not a big issue,
if necessary.

I thought about this:

ROMs/PROMs, replacing them when checksum fails.
* add - 3 in "parallel" using majority logic for output a and checking.


ROM/PROM masters, being copied once a year to flash ROM.
* see above.


1000 flash ROMs, refreshing once a year from the ones that still have a
valid checksum.
* see above.

** Semiconductor storage is useless in a RAD environment.


Non electronic masters:

Microfilm/microfiche
* Degrades - maybe not as fast as the old acetate movie films, but 100
year life is not realistic (but may be better in a RAD environment).

HD-Rosetta (ion beam engraved nickel disc)
* of ideas mentioned,this seems the best. now,how does it get read?

glass CD/DVD
* maybe good enough for 20-10 years.

Paper [2]
* NOPE! Leather,if kept in a dry environment is at least an order of
magnitude better (eg: Dead Sea scrolls). Proven technology. Proven
characteristics. Good enough for a few thousand years.

punched cards
* See above.


The drawback of the non electronic masters is their reader system which
can fail mechanically/optically (dust, gears, ...) and requires
electronic components/firmware themselves.

Is it possible to make robots or their spare parts that suffer only
minor degradation when kept as spare parts for 1000 years at good
storage conditions? semiconductors, inductors, (non electrolytic)
capacitors, circuit boards, plastic/metal structures, CCD/CMOS cameras,
actuators, solar cells, thermo couples, etc. Batteries are probably
difficult.
* Stay away from anything electronic..mechanical parts if not used
nominally do not wear out and reasonably tolerate a RAD environment.



Thanks, Bernhard


[1]
http://www.norsam.com/rosetta.html
http://www.norsam.com/nanorosettawp.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-Rosetta

[2]
something like http://ronja.twibright.com/optar/

[3]
A cold store to keep humans frozen (vitrified) in LN2 until mind
uploading (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_u...ial_sectioning ) becomes
possible.