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Hard disk reliability examined once mo HGST rules, Seagateis alarming



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 25th 15, 06:11 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.hdd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage
Ant[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 756
Default Hard disk reliability examined once mo HGST rules,Seagate is alarming

On 1/24/2015 7:18 AM, Robert Nichols wrote:

4. 12 days ago, I bought a new green Western Digital Corporation (WDC)
WD20EZRX-00D8PB0 SATA HDD to replace the dying Seagate Barracuda 7200.7
(ST380011A; 7200 RPM; 80 GB; IDE) HDD in Debian/Linux box.


You might want to check whether your new drive has the absurdly short
8 second timeout that unloads the heads and causes the Load_Cycle_Count
(SMART attribute 225) to increase rapidly under Linux. Google "WDidle3"
for details. There is a Linux package "idle3-tools" to adjust or
disable that timer. The only benefit from unloading the heads is a
fraction of a Watt decrease in power consumption in the idle state.


Interesting. Thanks for catching that. I looked at my Debian stable
desktop box (on 24/7). I do use the new drive as a storage drive, and
did notice sometimes lags to respond after idling.

# smartctl -a /dev/sdb
smartctl 5.41 2011-06-09 r3365 [x86_64-linux-3.2.0-4-amd64] (local build)
Copyright (C) 2002-11 by Bruce Allen, http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model: WDC WD20EZRX-00D8PB0
Serial Number: WD-WCC[deleted]
LU WWN Device Id: 5 0014ee 20abf221c
Firmware Version: 80.00A80
User Capacity: 2,000,398,934,016 bytes [2.00 TB]
Sector Sizes: 512 bytes logical, 4096 bytes physical
Device is: Not in smartctl database [for details use: -P showall]
ATA Version is: 9
ATA Standard is: Exact ATA specification draft version not indicated
Local Time is: Sat Jan 24 20:50:19 2015 PST
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED

General SMART Values:
Offline data collection status: (0x82) Offline data collection activity
was completed without error.
Auto Offline Data Collection:
Enabled.
Self-test execution status: ( 0) The previous self-test routine
completed
without error or no self-test
has ever
been run.
Total time to complete Offline
data collection: (26460) seconds.
Offline data collection
capabilities: (0x7b) SMART execute Offline immediate.
Auto Offline data collection
on/off support.
Suspend Offline collection upon new
command.
Offline surface scan supported.
Self-test supported.
Conveyance Self-test supported.
Selective Self-test supported.
SMART capabilities: (0x0003) Saves SMART data before entering
power-saving mode.
Supports SMART auto save timer.
Error logging capability: (0x01) Error logging supported.
General Purpose Logging supported.
Short self-test routine
recommended polling time: ( 2) minutes.
Extended self-test routine
recommended polling time: ( 255) minutes.
Conveyance self-test routine
recommended polling time: ( 5) minutes.
SCT capabilities: (0x7035) SCT Status supported.
SCT Feature Control supported.
SCT Data Table supported.

SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE
UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x002f 200 200 051 Pre-fail
Always - 0
3 Spin_Up_Time 0x0027 100 253 021 Pre-fail
Always - 0
4 Start_Stop_Count 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age
Always - 2
5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 200 200 140 Pre-fail
Always - 0
7 Seek_Error_Rate 0x002e 200 200 000 Old_age
Always - 0
9 Power_On_Hours 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age
Always - 315
10 Spin_Retry_Count 0x0032 100 253 000 Old_age
Always - 0
11 Calibration_Retry_Count 0x0032 100 253 000 Old_age
Always - 0
12 Power_Cycle_Count 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age
Always - 2
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032 200 200 000 Old_age Always
- 0
193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0032 195 195 000 Old_age Always
- 17676
194 Temperature_Celsius 0x0022 123 121 000 Old_age Always
- 27
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032 200 200 000 Old_age Always
- 0
197 Current_Pending_Sector 0x0032 200 200 000 Old_age Always
- 0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable 0x0030 200 200 000 Old_age
Offline - 0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count 0x0032 200 200 000 Old_age Always
- 0
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate 0x0008 200 200 000 Old_age
Offline - 0

SMART Error Log Version: 1
No Errors Logged

SMART Self-test log structure revision number 1
Num Test_Description Status Remaining
LifeTime(hours) LBA_of_first_error
# 1 Extended offline Completed without error 00% 7
-
# 2 Short offline Completed without error 00% 2
-

SMART Selective self-test log data structure revision number 1
SPAN MIN_LBA MAX_LBA CURRENT_TEST_STATUS
1 0 0 Not_testing
2 0 0 Not_testing
3 0 0 Not_testing
4 0 0 Not_testing
5 0 0 Not_testing
Selective self-test flags (0x0):
After scanning selected spans, do NOT read-scan remainder of disk.
If Selective self-test is pending on power-up, resume after 0 minute delay.


I don't see a 225 or did I miss something?

Debian stable has idle3-tools package, and I was reading its description:

"Package: idle3-tools
Version: 0.9.1-1
Installed-Size: 20
Maintainer: Anibal Monsalve Salazar
Architectu amd64
Depends: libc6 (= 2.2.5)
Description-en: change the idle3 timer of recent Western Digital Hard
Disk Drives
Idle3-tools provides a linux/unix utility that can disable, get and
set the value of the infamous idle3 timer found on recent Western
Digital Hard Disk Drives.
  #12  
Old January 25th 15, 06:12 AM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage
Ant[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 756
Default Hard disk reliability examined once mo HGST rules,Seagate is alarming

On 1/24/2015 6:40 PM, Your Name wrote:

I added a Western Digital 120GB drive to my G3 PowerMac years ago and
it's never had any problems.

These drive failure problems are likely partly due to bad computer
design causing over-heating, and partly due to the ever-increasing
capacity (trying to squeeze more and more data into the same physical
space).


That drive is old, but these WD green drives are new? They use that
power down option as a default feature from what I read. Others can
clarify this for us.
--
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  #13  
Old January 25th 15, 08:07 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.hdd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage
Andreas Rutishauser
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Hard disk reliability examined once mo HGST rules, Seagate is alarming

Salut Ant

In article ,
Ant wrote:

On 1/24/2015 7:18 AM, Robert Nichols wrote:

4. 12 days ago, I bought a new green Western Digital Corporation (WDC)
WD20EZRX-00D8PB0 SATA HDD to replace the dying Seagate Barracuda 7200.7
(ST380011A; 7200 RPM; 80 GB; IDE) HDD in Debian/Linux box.


You might want to check whether your new drive has the absurdly short
8 second timeout that unloads the heads and causes the Load_Cycle_Count
(SMART attribute 225) to increase rapidly under Linux. Google "WDidle3"
for details. There is a Linux package "idle3-tools" to adjust or
disable that timer. The only benefit from unloading the heads is a
fraction of a Watt decrease in power consumption in the idle state.


Interesting. Thanks for catching that. I looked at my Debian stable
desktop box (on 24/7). I do use the new drive as a storage drive, and
did notice sometimes lags to respond after idling.

# smartctl -a /dev/sdb
smartctl 5.41 2011-06-09 r3365 [x86_64-linux-3.2.0-4-amd64] (local build)
Copyright (C) 2002-11 by Bruce Allen, http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model: WDC WD20EZRX-00D8PB0
Serial Number: WD-WCC[deleted]
LU WWN Device Id: 5 0014ee 20abf221c
Firmware Version: 80.00A80
User Capacity: 2,000,398,934,016 bytes [2.00 TB]
Sector Sizes: 512 bytes logical, 4096 bytes physical


Device is: Not in smartctl database [for details use: -P showall]


I don't see a 225 or did I miss something?


maybe the line above (I snipped some...)?

Cheers
Andreas

--
MacAndreas Rutishauser, http://www.MacAndreas.ch
EDV-Dienstleistungen, Hard- und Software, Internet und Netzwerk
Beratung, Unterstuetzung und Schulung
, Fon: 044 / 721 36 47
  #14  
Old January 25th 15, 10:12 AM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage
Neill Massello[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default Hard disk reliability examined once mo HGST rules, Seagate is alarming

Ant wrote:

That drive is old, but these WD green drives are new? They use that
power down option as a default feature from what I read. Others can
clarify this for us.


Over the past six years, I have used ten WD Green drives. Nine are still
in use, including two fairly recent WD30EZRX models. None has ever spun
down of its own accord. Whatever you have read might apply to external
WD drives, but it isn't true of their internal Green drives.

  #16  
Old January 25th 15, 04:20 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage
Robert Nichols[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 63
Default Hard disk reliability examined once mo HGST rules, Seagateis alarming

On 01/25/2015 03:12 AM, Neill Massello wrote:
Ant wrote:

That drive is old, but these WD green drives are new? They use that
power down option as a default feature from what I read. Others can
clarify this for us.


Over the past six years, I have used ten WD Green drives. Nine are still
in use, including two fairly recent WD30EZRX models. None has ever spun
down of its own accord. Whatever you have read might apply to external
WD drives, but it isn't true of their internal Green drives.


They don't spin down, just move the heads off of the platters. You can
look at SMART attribute 193 Load_Cycle_Count and see it growing rapidly
toward its spec. limit. I had one where I saw the count growing above
150,000 after about 3 months. The spec. stated a lifetime of 300,000.
Do the math. (On newer drives the spec. has been raised to 1,000,000.
That still doesn't work out to a very long life.)

What does "smartctl -A" report for the Load_Cycle_Count on your
WD30EZRX?

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"
  #17  
Old January 25th 15, 04:34 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.hdd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage
Robert Nichols[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 63
Default Hard disk reliability examined once mo HGST rules, Seagateis alarming

On 01/24/2015 11:11 PM, Ant wrote:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
9 Power_On_Hours 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always - 315
193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0032 195 195 000 Old_age Always - 17676


At that rate the drive will report attribute 193 "Failing Now" after
742.5 power-on days. I suspect that the drive will probably still work
fine (the "1 million cycles" is probably just the number of test cycles
run), but you will have to put up with SMART always reporting that the
drive has failed.

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"
  #18  
Old January 25th 15, 09:06 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage
Neill Massello[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default Hard disk reliability examined once mo HGST rules, Seagate is alarming

Robert Nichols wrote:

They don't spin down, just move the heads off of the platters. You can
look at SMART attribute 193 Load_Cycle_Count and see it growing rapidly
toward its spec. limit. I had one where I saw the count growing above
150,000 after about 3 months. The spec. stated a lifetime of 300,000.
Do the math. (On newer drives the spec. has been raised to 1,000,000.
That still doesn't work out to a very long life.)


OK, you're talking about load cycles whereas the other posters were
using "spin down" and "power down" language. Now we're on the same page.

What does "smartctl -A" report for the Load_Cycle_Count on your
WD30EZRX?


I checked my WD HDDs and the Green models do indeed have very high load
cycle counts per power on hours. The LCC/hr ratios for the two WD30EZRX
drives are 9 and 21, whereas it's about 1 for my Blue and Black WD
drives. My oldest (1TB) Green drives (with firmware version 01.01A01)
have LCC/hr ratios like the Blues and Blacks. It looks like the manic
unloading was introduced with the 01.00A01 firmware some time between
April and August of 2009.

I guess it's good that I have used WD Green drives primarily as
"removable" backup storage, so they stay busy for the short periods
they're in use and don't rack up really huge LCC counts. My highest LCC
is 211346 on a drive that I've had for almost 5 years but has only 5790
power on hours.

  #19  
Old January 25th 15, 09:07 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.hdd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage
Ant[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 756
Default Hard disk reliability examined once mo HGST rules,Seagate is alarming

On 1/25/2015 7:34 AM, Robert Nichols wrote:
On 01/24/2015 11:11 PM, Ant wrote:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED

WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
9 Power_On_Hours 0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age
Always - 315
193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0032 195 195 000 Old_age
Always - 17676


At that rate the drive will report attribute 193 "Failing Now" after
742.5 power-on days. I suspect that the drive will probably still work
fine (the "1 million cycles" is probably just the number of test cycles
run), but you will have to put up with SMART always reporting that the
drive has failed.


Ugh, I hate that report on old ages. And there's no way to make it shut
up about its high values?
--
"Maybe it's like an ant hive..." "Bees man, bees have hives." "You know
what I mean. It's like one female that runs the whole show." "Yes, the
queen." "Yeah the mamma. She is bad*ss, man. I mean big." "These things
ain't ants estupido." "I know that." --Aliens movie
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.
  #20  
Old January 25th 15, 09:33 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage
Your Name
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Hard disk reliability examined once mo HGST rules, Seagate is alarming

In article , Robert Nichols
wrote:

On 01/25/2015 03:12 AM, Neill Massello wrote:
Ant wrote:

That drive is old, but these WD green drives are new? They use that
power down option as a default feature from what I read. Others can
clarify this for us.


Over the past six years, I have used ten WD Green drives. Nine are still
in use, including two fairly recent WD30EZRX models. None has ever spun
down of its own accord. Whatever you have read might apply to external
WD drives, but it isn't true of their internal Green drives.


They don't spin down, just move the heads off of the platters. You can
look at SMART attribute 193 Load_Cycle_Count


Like most attempts to measure unmeasurable things (e.g. battery level
indicators), "SMART" is misleading and inaccurate. It may be handy for
a rough idea, but it's never sensible to take what it says as gsopel
truth.



and see it growing rapidly toward its spec. limit. I had one where I saw the count growing above
150,000 after about 3 months. The spec. stated a lifetime of 300,000.
Do the math. (On newer drives the spec. has been raised to 1,000,000.
That still doesn't work out to a very long life.)

What does "smartctl -A" report for the Load_Cycle_Count on your
WD30EZRX?


Those manufacturer are usually quoted as "*average*" figures. In a
similar way to food "Use By" / "Expiry" Dates, most manufacturers
vastly underestimate such figures on purpose so that their products
look better. For example if they said the lifespan was 50 and most
drives were failing at 40, then they would look bad and customers would
complain, but if they say the lifespan is 50 and most drives are
failing at 80, then they look good and cusomers are happy their drives
are lasting "longer".
 




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