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Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 2nd 05, 11:21 AM
D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array


I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard.

It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a RAID 1
array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives.

The O/S is Win XP SP2.

All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my old PC
(continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array).

However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for
backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to bring
my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to ensure I
had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The old
install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had occurred
on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard
succesfully).

The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the boot
disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue
screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and the
system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was stopped
by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but then I
kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives (which
after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped).

All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able to
recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many years
and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done it
whilst having a RAID array.


I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array remaing
the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data (too much
for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I now
know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically on
crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of cabling
the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my data.

- Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old windows
install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup back?
- Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or add it
with specific considerations?
- Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE drive in
and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD?

Thanks in advance,
D.


  #2  
Old November 3rd 05, 05:25 AM
Jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array

It's always difficult in a case like this to be positive about what
happened. A lot of details here regarding boot sequence, what was attached
prior and after OS installation, mobo idiosyncrasies, etc. That said, it
sounds like you may have a case where the mobo drive assignments (C:, D:,
etc.) are different when certain hardware components are attached.

For example, I have several USB external HD enclosures. If I leave them
running when I reboot my Abit AI7 mobo, then the "system" sees the external
enclosure as the bootable drive, despite the fact I've told the BIOS it
isn't. No matter what I do, if that USB external enclosure is running, the
system INSISTS on trying to boot it. So w/ every reboot, I have to make
sure the enclosures are shutdown.

The same thing could be occurring w/ your IDE channels. Your BIOS and/or
Windows may be insisting that if anything is attached to the IDE channels,
it must be the bootable item. Of course, we know it isn't. I suspect the
reason it gets to the XP logo and craps out is because it's NOT the new
install, but the OLD install that's trying to boot. The old install doesn't
match the new hardware, and well..., all kinds of problems can creep up now.
The fact you added the IDE drive AFTER XP was installed may have exacerbated
the problem too.

I have several suggestions, perhaps none of them ideal. You could install
XP on the RAID partition again, but this time make sure the IDE drive is
attached and running at the time. XP will install the boot files on the IDE
drive, of course, but the OS will be running off the RAID/SATA drives
(probably as D.

Another option, if you want to force the RAID/SATA drive to be C: is,
install a boot manager on the PATA/IDE drive first (e.g., BootIt NG). Only
requires a small 8-16mb partition. Now install XP on the RAID/SATA drive.
When the system boots, it will boot the PATA/IDE drive, *but* that will only
boot the boot manager! From there, your boot manager can boot XP (as C.
This is what I've done on my system. I *always* use a small PATA drive for
my boot manager, which in turn boot various OS's from my RAID0 (stripped)
array (in my case, PATA/IDE too). I then use the remaining space on the
PATA/IDE drive for additional partitions or storing image copies of
partitions on the other drives, so it doesn't go to waste.

Bottomline is, I know this varies a bit from vendor to vendor, but there can
be problems in controlling boot order when mixing interfaces, despite
whether the BIOS settings might lead you to believe otherwise. Many mobo's
insist on a particular sequence that *may* not jive with your intentions.
And that's what I suspect has happened in your case. To circumvent the
problem, I've simply made it a habit to maintain a small PATA/IDE drive for
my boot manager, then have the boot manager boot the various OS's I have
installed. Sometimes you have to know when to NOT fight the system

HTH

Jim


"D" wrote in message
...

I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard.

It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a RAID

1
array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives.

The O/S is Win XP SP2.

All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my old

PC
(continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array).

However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for
backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to bring
my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to ensure

I
had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The old
install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had

occurred
on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard
succesfully).

The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the boot
disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue
screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and the
system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was

stopped
by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but then I
kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives (which
after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped).

All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able to
recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many years
and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done it
whilst having a RAID array.


I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array remaing
the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data (too

much
for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I now
know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically on
crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of

cabling
the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my data.

- Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old windows
install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup back?
- Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or add

it
with specific considerations?
- Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE drive

in
and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD?

Thanks in advance,
D.




  #3  
Old November 6th 05, 04:54 AM
D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array

Jim,

This is a relatively new PC (6 months old) so your right, I probably haven't
experienced all the [disk/boot] issues which are particular to it.

My primary concern is to get a full backup of my data. To do this, due to
the size (80Gb), I need to get the second harddrive config'ed successfully
without any Windows re-install.

I have reformatted the IDE drive, to remove any issue with the old Windows
install on it. (I can't remember if it was formatted with a system-option;
how do I tell?) It still blue screens and auto-restarts.

I turned auto-restart off in my SATA-based Windows install; and know I can
see the Blue Screen error:

*** Begin***
A problem has been detected and Windows has been shut down to prevent damage
to your computer.

If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen, restart your
computer. If this screen appears again, follow these steps:

Check for viruses on your computer. Remove any newly installed hard drives
or hard drive controllers. Check your hard drive to make sure it is properly
configured and terminated. Run CHKDSK /F to check for hard drive corruption,
and then restart your computer.

Technical information:

*** STOP: 0x0000007B (0xF79F7528, 0xC0000034, 0x00000000, 0x00000000)
*** End***

I then ran IBM's disk fitness against the IDE drive (with only the IDE
attached by cables); this was successful (in both Quick Check and long-check
option).

I tried another IBM IDE HDD and it errors with the exact same codes when
connected with my SATA array.

In all test cases, except where only the IDE HDD is attached, the SATA array
is the first boot device and the IDE the second.

What puzzles me is that the IDE HDD used to be attached and visible and
allow SATA-based Windows to boot successfully (The IDE HDD was added
(physically) after the SATA-based HDD Windows was installed). This tends
to indicate to me that it is a hardware issue; combined with the disk test
and the other IDE also tested .... but not the particular IDE HDD.

I am now trying cabling options (although I have it set as the master on a
80' cable by itself on the black-end of the cable, nothing on the
middle-grey end and the blue attached to the m/b as it should be). I'll try
it on the IDE seperate IDE cable that the DVD burner is (and has always
been) working on).

D.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:7bhaf.16178$i%[email protected]
It's always difficult in a case like this to be positive about what
happened. A lot of details here regarding boot sequence, what was
attached
prior and after OS installation, mobo idiosyncrasies, etc. That said, it
sounds like you may have a case where the mobo drive assignments (C:, D:,
etc.) are different when certain hardware components are attached.

For example, I have several USB external HD enclosures. If I leave them
running when I reboot my Abit AI7 mobo, then the "system" sees the
external
enclosure as the bootable drive, despite the fact I've told the BIOS it
isn't. No matter what I do, if that USB external enclosure is running,
the
system INSISTS on trying to boot it. So w/ every reboot, I have to make
sure the enclosures are shutdown.

The same thing could be occurring w/ your IDE channels. Your BIOS and/or
Windows may be insisting that if anything is attached to the IDE
channels,
it must be the bootable item. Of course, we know it isn't. I suspect the
reason it gets to the XP logo and craps out is because it's NOT the new
install, but the OLD install that's trying to boot. The old install
doesn't
match the new hardware, and well..., all kinds of problems can creep up
now.
The fact you added the IDE drive AFTER XP was installed may have
exacerbated
the problem too.

I have several suggestions, perhaps none of them ideal. You could install
XP on the RAID partition again, but this time make sure the IDE drive is
attached and running at the time. XP will install the boot files on the
IDE
drive, of course, but the OS will be running off the RAID/SATA drives
(probably as D.

Another option, if you want to force the RAID/SATA drive to be C: is,
install a boot manager on the PATA/IDE drive first (e.g., BootIt NG).
Only
requires a small 8-16mb partition. Now install XP on the RAID/SATA drive.
When the system boots, it will boot the PATA/IDE drive, *but* that will
only
boot the boot manager! From there, your boot manager can boot XP (as C.
This is what I've done on my system. I *always* use a small PATA drive
for
my boot manager, which in turn boot various OS's from my RAID0 (stripped)
array (in my case, PATA/IDE too). I then use the remaining space on the
PATA/IDE drive for additional partitions or storing image copies of
partitions on the other drives, so it doesn't go to waste.

Bottomline is, I know this varies a bit from vendor to vendor, but there
can
be problems in controlling boot order when mixing interfaces, despite
whether the BIOS settings might lead you to believe otherwise. Many
mobo's
insist on a particular sequence that *may* not jive with your intentions.
And that's what I suspect has happened in your case. To circumvent the
problem, I've simply made it a habit to maintain a small PATA/IDE drive
for
my boot manager, then have the boot manager boot the various OS's I have
installed. Sometimes you have to know when to NOT fight the system

HTH

Jim


"D" wrote in message
...

I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard.

It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a RAID

1
array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives.

The O/S is Win XP SP2.

All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my old

PC
(continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array).

However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for
backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to
bring
my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to ensure

I
had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The old
install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had

occurred
on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard
succesfully).

The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the boot
disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue
screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and the
system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was

stopped
by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but then I
kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives
(which
after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped).

All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able to
recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many years
and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done it
whilst having a RAID array.


I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array
remaing
the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data (too

much
for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I now
know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically on
crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of

cabling
the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my data.

- Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old windows
install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup back?
- Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or add

it
with specific considerations?
- Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE drive

in
and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD?

Thanks in advance,
D.






  #4  
Old November 6th 05, 05:46 AM
Jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array

Ok, I think have a decent "lay of the land" here on this problem. I'm not
quite sure what you did to actually cause the failure of the SATA array to
boot when the IDE drive is attached, but since you did manage to get the
transfer completed and drive wiped, what remains is finding some way to get
your current SATA array backed up. I assume if your IDE drive is NOT
attached, the SATA array will still boot, correct?

Two solutions, option #1 is straight-forward, but costs a few bucks. Option
#2 is free, but slightly more complex.

Option #1: Get yourself a cheap USB enclosure for your IDE HD. These can be
had for $25-35 online (see Dealsonic.com, they have loads of 'em). Because
the interface is USB, all you have to do is boot the SATA array, power up
the enclosure, and insert the USB cable. Windows will recognize it and
whalla, you have access to the storage for whatever purposes you like,
including imaging the OS on the SATA drive.

Option #2 (should be done w/ SATA and IDE drives installed): Visit
http://www.bootitng.com and make yourself either a bootable floppy or CD.
Boot the floppy/CD, and when the Welcome screen appears, hit Cancel, and
follow the prompts until you reach the partition manager. Now use the
partition manager to COPY or IMAGE the SATA partition(s) over to the IDE
drive. It should be fairly intuitive, but if not, let me know and I'll walk
you through the process.

The reason this should work is because we never are getting far enough to
boot the SATA nor the IDE drive! Instead, the BootIt NG floppy or CD is
being booted FIRST. Therefore, we can gain access to both the HDs and at
least can perform a partition COPY or partition IMAGE operation from one
drive to the other. Of course, this doesn't solve the underlying problem.
You'll still need to disconnect the IDE drive before booting the SATA drive
to avoid the blue screens. BUT, you will at least have a copy of that SATA
install on the IDE drive. Heck, you can even image copy the SATA drive to
CD\DVD media if you prefer.

Btw, I see no reason the IDE drive wouldn't be bootable as long as you made
sure you COPIED (as opposed to IMAGED) the SATA partition(s) over to the IDE
drive, AND, made sure that the partition was marked bootable. From the
partition manager, Hit "View MBR", and in the dialog, you will notice four
entries in the MBR (Master Boot Record). Each entry w/ a non-zero address
represents one of your COPIED partitions. Select the bootable partition
(usually the first MBR entry), hit "Set Active", and the partition will
indicate Active status. Now hit "Std MBR", this will initialize the boot
loader in the MBR. Finally, hit Apply to save the changes. At this point,
the IDE drive *should* be bootable using the installation copied from the
SATA drive. Of course, I'm not sure that making the IDE drive bootable is
really what you're after, I'm merely saying you could make it happen, if
that proves useful.

But again, none of this addresses the underlying problem, I'm merely
suggesting how to solve the immediate problem of backing up the SATA
installation. At least the use of an external USB enclosure provides a long
term solution by side-stepping the problem.

HTH

Jim


"D" wrote in message
...
Jim,

This is a relatively new PC (6 months old) so your right, I probably

haven't
experienced all the [disk/boot] issues which are particular to it.

My primary concern is to get a full backup of my data. To do this, due to
the size (80Gb), I need to get the second harddrive config'ed successfully
without any Windows re-install.

I have reformatted the IDE drive, to remove any issue with the old Windows
install on it. (I can't remember if it was formatted with a

system-option;
how do I tell?) It still blue screens and auto-restarts.

I turned auto-restart off in my SATA-based Windows install; and know I can
see the Blue Screen error:

*** Begin***
A problem has been detected and Windows has been shut down to prevent

damage
to your computer.

If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen, restart your
computer. If this screen appears again, follow these steps:

Check for viruses on your computer. Remove any newly installed hard drives
or hard drive controllers. Check your hard drive to make sure it is

properly
configured and terminated. Run CHKDSK /F to check for hard drive

corruption,
and then restart your computer.

Technical information:

*** STOP: 0x0000007B (0xF79F7528, 0xC0000034, 0x00000000, 0x00000000)
*** End***

I then ran IBM's disk fitness against the IDE drive (with only the IDE
attached by cables); this was successful (in both Quick Check and

long-check
option).

I tried another IBM IDE HDD and it errors with the exact same codes when
connected with my SATA array.

In all test cases, except where only the IDE HDD is attached, the SATA

array
is the first boot device and the IDE the second.

What puzzles me is that the IDE HDD used to be attached and visible and
allow SATA-based Windows to boot successfully (The IDE HDD was added
(physically) after the SATA-based HDD Windows was installed). This tends
to indicate to me that it is a hardware issue; combined with the disk test
and the other IDE also tested .... but not the particular IDE HDD.

I am now trying cabling options (although I have it set as the master on a
80' cable by itself on the black-end of the cable, nothing on the
middle-grey end and the blue attached to the m/b as it should be). I'll

try
it on the IDE seperate IDE cable that the DVD burner is (and has always
been) working on).

D.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:7bhaf.16178$i%[email protected]
It's always difficult in a case like this to be positive about what
happened. A lot of details here regarding boot sequence, what was
attached
prior and after OS installation, mobo idiosyncrasies, etc. That said,

it
sounds like you may have a case where the mobo drive assignments (C:,

D:,
etc.) are different when certain hardware components are attached.

For example, I have several USB external HD enclosures. If I leave them
running when I reboot my Abit AI7 mobo, then the "system" sees the
external
enclosure as the bootable drive, despite the fact I've told the BIOS it
isn't. No matter what I do, if that USB external enclosure is running,
the
system INSISTS on trying to boot it. So w/ every reboot, I have to make
sure the enclosures are shutdown.

The same thing could be occurring w/ your IDE channels. Your BIOS

and/or
Windows may be insisting that if anything is attached to the IDE
channels,
it must be the bootable item. Of course, we know it isn't. I suspect

the
reason it gets to the XP logo and craps out is because it's NOT the new
install, but the OLD install that's trying to boot. The old install
doesn't
match the new hardware, and well..., all kinds of problems can creep up
now.
The fact you added the IDE drive AFTER XP was installed may have
exacerbated
the problem too.

I have several suggestions, perhaps none of them ideal. You could

install
XP on the RAID partition again, but this time make sure the IDE drive is
attached and running at the time. XP will install the boot files on the
IDE
drive, of course, but the OS will be running off the RAID/SATA drives
(probably as D.

Another option, if you want to force the RAID/SATA drive to be C: is,
install a boot manager on the PATA/IDE drive first (e.g., BootIt NG).
Only
requires a small 8-16mb partition. Now install XP on the RAID/SATA

drive.
When the system boots, it will boot the PATA/IDE drive, *but* that will
only
boot the boot manager! From there, your boot manager can boot XP (as

C.
This is what I've done on my system. I *always* use a small PATA drive
for
my boot manager, which in turn boot various OS's from my RAID0

(stripped)
array (in my case, PATA/IDE too). I then use the remaining space on the
PATA/IDE drive for additional partitions or storing image copies of
partitions on the other drives, so it doesn't go to waste.

Bottomline is, I know this varies a bit from vendor to vendor, but there
can
be problems in controlling boot order when mixing interfaces, despite
whether the BIOS settings might lead you to believe otherwise. Many
mobo's
insist on a particular sequence that *may* not jive with your

intentions.
And that's what I suspect has happened in your case. To circumvent the
problem, I've simply made it a habit to maintain a small PATA/IDE drive
for
my boot manager, then have the boot manager boot the various OS's I have
installed. Sometimes you have to know when to NOT fight the system

HTH

Jim


"D" wrote in message
...

I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard.

It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a

RAID
1
array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives.

The O/S is Win XP SP2.

All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my

old
PC
(continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array).

However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for
backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to
bring
my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to

ensure
I
had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The old
install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had

occurred
on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard
succesfully).

The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the

boot
disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue
screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and the
system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was

stopped
by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but then

I
kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives
(which
after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped).

All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able

to
recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many

years
and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done

it
whilst having a RAID array.


I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array
remaing
the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data (too

much
for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I

now
know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically on
crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of

cabling
the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my

data.

- Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old windows
install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup

back?
- Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or

add
it
with specific considerations?
- Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE

drive
in
and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD?

Thanks in advance,
D.








  #5  
Old November 8th 05, 11:35 AM
D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array

Jim,

You have a very good point; I had been planning to move this setup to a USB
or fireware enabled removable drive setup.

Before I do, I also have Acronis 8.0. So, given I don't have the removable
drive option at home, I decided to boot from the Acronis CD-ROM. I changed
the BIOS to have my DVD drive as the first boot device (with all other bo0t
devices set to 'None') ... and the IDE drive attached. The result is that
the PC still boots from the SATA RAID array, bringing windows up!!! This
was most unexpected and shows that there is more at play here...

I've googled re the mobo (GA-KA8NXP-SLI) and sata, ide etc and found several
sources of people were having drive problems. Unfortunately none seem to be
attemptin a RAID array and a non-raided IDE drive. From them, there were
interesting comments to note:

http://groups.google.com.au/group/al...3bde4f7e5248e9
As you may or may not be aware, the on-board RAID controllers are not true
hardware RAID controllers, and therefore need specific Windows based drivers
to perform the RAID functions, and as such are vulnerable to corruption
caused by software conflicts/crashes within windows.
On the other hand, a fully hardware based RAID controller is transparent to,
and completely independent of the OS used on the PC, and does not require
any drivers to be loaded into the OS for it's correct operation. I assume
this would result in the arrays on a true hardware based controller being
less vulnerable to software issues within the OS.

If the above is true, I am not sure that Acronis (or Bootitng) will be able
to copy the SATA array as it won't have a driver like windows to interpret
it.

The above, if true, also leads me to think that a RAID array implemented
with software (which I didn't know) is less robust. I had chosen to
implement a RAID-1 array to make my data more secure!

That post also alludes to a 'nVidia hardware/BIOS/driver issue/conflict'....

That fact that there are a number of posts/forums where there are issues
with RAID arrays on this mobo doesn't look good.



I am now going to try and only have the IDE cabled in and boot from the
Acronis CD which should tell me more. If that doesn;t work, I'll attach the
IDE HDD to the same cable my DVD drive is on .... maybe a bad IDE cable???
I'll tell you how I go.


D.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:4Mgbf.17451$i%[email protected]
Ok, I think have a decent "lay of the land" here on this problem. I'm not
quite sure what you did to actually cause the failure of the SATA array to
boot when the IDE drive is attached, but since you did manage to get the
transfer completed and drive wiped, what remains is finding some way to
get
your current SATA array backed up. I assume if your IDE drive is NOT
attached, the SATA array will still boot, correct?

Two solutions, option #1 is straight-forward, but costs a few bucks.
Option
#2 is free, but slightly more complex.

Option #1: Get yourself a cheap USB enclosure for your IDE HD. These can
be
had for $25-35 online (see Dealsonic.com, they have loads of 'em).
Because
the interface is USB, all you have to do is boot the SATA array, power up
the enclosure, and insert the USB cable. Windows will recognize it and
whalla, you have access to the storage for whatever purposes you like,
including imaging the OS on the SATA drive.

Option #2 (should be done w/ SATA and IDE drives installed): Visit
http://www.bootitng.com and make yourself either a bootable floppy or CD.
Boot the floppy/CD, and when the Welcome screen appears, hit Cancel, and
follow the prompts until you reach the partition manager. Now use the
partition manager to COPY or IMAGE the SATA partition(s) over to the IDE
drive. It should be fairly intuitive, but if not, let me know and I'll
walk
you through the process.

The reason this should work is because we never are getting far enough to
boot the SATA nor the IDE drive! Instead, the BootIt NG floppy or CD is
being booted FIRST. Therefore, we can gain access to both the HDs and at
least can perform a partition COPY or partition IMAGE operation from one
drive to the other. Of course, this doesn't solve the underlying problem.
You'll still need to disconnect the IDE drive before booting the SATA
drive
to avoid the blue screens. BUT, you will at least have a copy of that
SATA
install on the IDE drive. Heck, you can even image copy the SATA drive to
CD\DVD media if you prefer.

Btw, I see no reason the IDE drive wouldn't be bootable as long as you
made
sure you COPIED (as opposed to IMAGED) the SATA partition(s) over to the
IDE
drive, AND, made sure that the partition was marked bootable. From the
partition manager, Hit "View MBR", and in the dialog, you will notice four
entries in the MBR (Master Boot Record). Each entry w/ a non-zero address
represents one of your COPIED partitions. Select the bootable partition
(usually the first MBR entry), hit "Set Active", and the partition will
indicate Active status. Now hit "Std MBR", this will initialize the boot
loader in the MBR. Finally, hit Apply to save the changes. At this
point,
the IDE drive *should* be bootable using the installation copied from the
SATA drive. Of course, I'm not sure that making the IDE drive bootable is
really what you're after, I'm merely saying you could make it happen, if
that proves useful.

But again, none of this addresses the underlying problem, I'm merely
suggesting how to solve the immediate problem of backing up the SATA
installation. At least the use of an external USB enclosure provides a
long
term solution by side-stepping the problem.

HTH

Jim


"D" wrote in message
...
Jim,

This is a relatively new PC (6 months old) so your right, I probably

haven't
experienced all the [disk/boot] issues which are particular to it.

My primary concern is to get a full backup of my data. To do this, due
to
the size (80Gb), I need to get the second harddrive config'ed
successfully
without any Windows re-install.

I have reformatted the IDE drive, to remove any issue with the old
Windows
install on it. (I can't remember if it was formatted with a

system-option;
how do I tell?) It still blue screens and auto-restarts.

I turned auto-restart off in my SATA-based Windows install; and know I
can
see the Blue Screen error:

*** Begin***
A problem has been detected and Windows has been shut down to prevent

damage
to your computer.

If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen, restart
your
computer. If this screen appears again, follow these steps:

Check for viruses on your computer. Remove any newly installed hard
drives
or hard drive controllers. Check your hard drive to make sure it is

properly
configured and terminated. Run CHKDSK /F to check for hard drive

corruption,
and then restart your computer.

Technical information:

*** STOP: 0x0000007B (0xF79F7528, 0xC0000034, 0x00000000, 0x00000000)
*** End***

I then ran IBM's disk fitness against the IDE drive (with only the IDE
attached by cables); this was successful (in both Quick Check and

long-check
option).

I tried another IBM IDE HDD and it errors with the exact same codes when
connected with my SATA array.

In all test cases, except where only the IDE HDD is attached, the SATA

array
is the first boot device and the IDE the second.

What puzzles me is that the IDE HDD used to be attached and visible and
allow SATA-based Windows to boot successfully (The IDE HDD was added
(physically) after the SATA-based HDD Windows was installed). This
tends
to indicate to me that it is a hardware issue; combined with the disk
test
and the other IDE also tested .... but not the particular IDE HDD.

I am now trying cabling options (although I have it set as the master on
a
80' cable by itself on the black-end of the cable, nothing on the
middle-grey end and the blue attached to the m/b as it should be). I'll

try
it on the IDE seperate IDE cable that the DVD burner is (and has always
been) working on).

D.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:7bhaf.16178$i%[email protected]
It's always difficult in a case like this to be positive about what
happened. A lot of details here regarding boot sequence, what was
attached
prior and after OS installation, mobo idiosyncrasies, etc. That said,

it
sounds like you may have a case where the mobo drive assignments (C:,

D:,
etc.) are different when certain hardware components are attached.

For example, I have several USB external HD enclosures. If I leave
them
running when I reboot my Abit AI7 mobo, then the "system" sees the
external
enclosure as the bootable drive, despite the fact I've told the BIOS it
isn't. No matter what I do, if that USB external enclosure is running,
the
system INSISTS on trying to boot it. So w/ every reboot, I have to
make
sure the enclosures are shutdown.

The same thing could be occurring w/ your IDE channels. Your BIOS

and/or
Windows may be insisting that if anything is attached to the IDE
channels,
it must be the bootable item. Of course, we know it isn't. I suspect

the
reason it gets to the XP logo and craps out is because it's NOT the new
install, but the OLD install that's trying to boot. The old install
doesn't
match the new hardware, and well..., all kinds of problems can creep up
now.
The fact you added the IDE drive AFTER XP was installed may have
exacerbated
the problem too.

I have several suggestions, perhaps none of them ideal. You could

install
XP on the RAID partition again, but this time make sure the IDE drive
is
attached and running at the time. XP will install the boot files on
the
IDE
drive, of course, but the OS will be running off the RAID/SATA drives
(probably as D.

Another option, if you want to force the RAID/SATA drive to be C: is,
install a boot manager on the PATA/IDE drive first (e.g., BootIt NG).
Only
requires a small 8-16mb partition. Now install XP on the RAID/SATA

drive.
When the system boots, it will boot the PATA/IDE drive, *but* that will
only
boot the boot manager! From there, your boot manager can boot XP (as

C.
This is what I've done on my system. I *always* use a small PATA drive
for
my boot manager, which in turn boot various OS's from my RAID0

(stripped)
array (in my case, PATA/IDE too). I then use the remaining space on
the
PATA/IDE drive for additional partitions or storing image copies of
partitions on the other drives, so it doesn't go to waste.

Bottomline is, I know this varies a bit from vendor to vendor, but
there
can
be problems in controlling boot order when mixing interfaces, despite
whether the BIOS settings might lead you to believe otherwise. Many
mobo's
insist on a particular sequence that *may* not jive with your

intentions.
And that's what I suspect has happened in your case. To circumvent the
problem, I've simply made it a habit to maintain a small PATA/IDE drive
for
my boot manager, then have the boot manager boot the various OS's I
have
installed. Sometimes you have to know when to NOT fight the system

HTH

Jim


"D" wrote in message
...

I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard.

It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a

RAID
1
array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives.

The O/S is Win XP SP2.

All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my

old
PC
(continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array).

However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for
backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to
bring
my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to

ensure
I
had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The old
install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had
occurred
on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard
succesfully).

The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the

boot
disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue
screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and the
system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was
stopped
by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but
then

I
kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives
(which
after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped).

All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able

to
recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many

years
and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done

it
whilst having a RAID array.


I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array
remaing
the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data (too
much
for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I

now
know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically on
crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of
cabling
the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my

data.

- Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old windows
install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup

back?
- Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or

add
it
with specific considerations?
- Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE

drive
in
and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD?

Thanks in advance,
D.










  #6  
Old November 8th 05, 01:53 PM
D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array


Jim,

I did some more experimenting...

Booting from Acronis CD after re-attaching IDE drive to system didn't work
(can't remember the detail now, I've done so much in the last couple of
hrs). I moved the IDE drive to the same cable as the DVD burner and that
didn't work either.

I detached both SATA drives and booted from Acronis Cd again ... and Acronis
can see the IDE drive now! Still seems to be when IDE and RAID are bot on
machine ...

I did find a peculair problem with the way the BIOS works.... the 4 settings
'IDE [Primary/MASter] [Master/Slave] RAID' need to be all 'Disabled' in my
case to ensure that RAID is not being 'attempted'(?) on my IDE drive.
Secondly, whenever the 2 settings 'On=Chip IDE Channel[0/1]' are disabled
and then re-enabled, yu must go back to the 'Standard CMOS Features' and set
the IDE Channel devices to AUTO (otherwise the disable/enable has forced
them to 'NONE'!). After this, I ensure that the RAID array is the first of
the HDD boot priority followed by the IDE HDD.
Now I have the IDE (and DVD) devices being detected on boot startup (which I
probably had before but have changed various BIOS settings and not discovery
the full impact of this disable-enable).

Presuming that the system partition on the IDE drive was perhaps an issue, I
then I booted of the Win XP Pro CD and chose to delete the partition on the
IDE drive. When I then re-booted, I got back to the origional BSOD with the
same error code as before. So I removed the IDE drive thinking the RAID
array would be okay as before (and at worst, get the dirty bit set on D: and
E. Wrong! Even worse, Windows came back:
"Windows could not start because the following file is missing or corrupt.
\Windows\system32\config\system"

I now *potentially* put this down to using the Win XP CD to remove the IDE
partition without having F6-loaded the NVidia RAID drivers ... imagining
that XP has corrupted the Windows install on the RAID array as with no RAID
driver it sees the two underlying disks....

Panic set in as it looked like I may have lost it all.

I used Win XP CD to boot again but this time loading the Nvidia RAID
drivers. I then went to recovery console and could see all my partitions
(on a single disk, due to the RAID driver). Phew - it looked like all the
files were there. The referenced \Windows\system32\config\system file was
there timestamped at approx the time I deleted the IDE partition (as well as
other files tstp'ed at the same time in same dir).

As I didn't want to start to play with recovery console commands I knew
nothing about, I decided to attempt to re-boot off the RAID array and try
'Last known good config' .... and low and behold Windows came up under the
RAID array! I had run nothing other than help commands under the recovery
console and a 'bootcfg /list' and 'bootcfg /scan'; the list showed 'no boot
entries' and the scan '1 windows install - C:\Windows'. However, I was
*not* asked to choose the only install ([1]) *nor* ran bootcfg /add nor
/rebuild.

I am now at the point that I will not recable the IDE HDD; instead your
option 1 of moving it to a USB or firewaire enclosure seems the only safe
option.

Any opinion re USB or firewire (re which tends to normally 'just work';
transfer speeds, and portability (obviously USB is better, right)).

Note: DVD burning is not an option for backup as I have 50Gb of data (my
wifes graphic design files!).

Hopefully this may have ben helpful for someone with one of these Gigabyte
M/Bs and decides:
1. Don't frig around with RAID, as additions of other drives later may cause
you to lose all your data.

I will now choose to not use RAID (and if absolutely had to do RAID, would
only do it with full hardware support).

Note: My RAID 1 setup has worked flawlessly for 6 months; it was just
adding the extra IDE HDD that caused the issues., and
2. If you do need to add another drive, ensure you have a full backup via an
option which doesn't require cabling internally a new drive.



Regards,
D.

"D" wrote in message
...
Jim,

You have a very good point; I had been planning to move this setup to a
USB or fireware enabled removable drive setup.

Before I do, I also have Acronis 8.0. So, given I don't have the
removable drive option at home, I decided to boot from the Acronis CD-ROM.
I changed the BIOS to have my DVD drive as the first boot device (with all
other bo0t devices set to 'None') ... and the IDE drive attached. The
result is that the PC still boots from the SATA RAID array, bringing
windows up!!! This was most unexpected and shows that there is more at
play here...

I've googled re the mobo (GA-KA8NXP-SLI) and sata, ide etc and found
several sources of people were having drive problems. Unfortunately none
seem to be attemptin a RAID array and a non-raided IDE drive. From them,
there were interesting comments to note:

http://groups.google.com.au/group/al...3bde4f7e5248e9
As you may or may not be aware, the on-board RAID controllers are not true
hardware RAID controllers, and therefore need specific Windows based
drivers
to perform the RAID functions, and as such are vulnerable to corruption
caused by software conflicts/crashes within windows.
On the other hand, a fully hardware based RAID controller is transparent
to,
and completely independent of the OS used on the PC, and does not require
any drivers to be loaded into the OS for it's correct operation. I assume
this would result in the arrays on a true hardware based controller being
less vulnerable to software issues within the OS.

If the above is true, I am not sure that Acronis (or Bootitng) will be
able to copy the SATA array as it won't have a driver like windows to
interpret it.

The above, if true, also leads me to think that a RAID array implemented
with software (which I didn't know) is less robust. I had chosen to
implement a RAID-1 array to make my data more secure!

That post also alludes to a 'nVidia hardware/BIOS/driver
issue/conflict'....

That fact that there are a number of posts/forums where there are issues
with RAID arrays on this mobo doesn't look good.



I am now going to try and only have the IDE cabled in and boot from the
Acronis CD which should tell me more. If that doesn;t work, I'll attach
the IDE HDD to the same cable my DVD drive is on .... maybe a bad IDE
cable??? I'll tell you how I go.


D.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:4Mgbf.17451$i%[email protected]
Ok, I think have a decent "lay of the land" here on this problem. I'm
not
quite sure what you did to actually cause the failure of the SATA array
to
boot when the IDE drive is attached, but since you did manage to get the
transfer completed and drive wiped, what remains is finding some way to
get
your current SATA array backed up. I assume if your IDE drive is NOT
attached, the SATA array will still boot, correct?

Two solutions, option #1 is straight-forward, but costs a few bucks.
Option
#2 is free, but slightly more complex.

Option #1: Get yourself a cheap USB enclosure for your IDE HD. These can
be
had for $25-35 online (see Dealsonic.com, they have loads of 'em).
Because
the interface is USB, all you have to do is boot the SATA array, power up
the enclosure, and insert the USB cable. Windows will recognize it and
whalla, you have access to the storage for whatever purposes you like,
including imaging the OS on the SATA drive.

Option #2 (should be done w/ SATA and IDE drives installed): Visit
http://www.bootitng.com and make yourself either a bootable floppy or CD.
Boot the floppy/CD, and when the Welcome screen appears, hit Cancel, and
follow the prompts until you reach the partition manager. Now use the
partition manager to COPY or IMAGE the SATA partition(s) over to the IDE
drive. It should be fairly intuitive, but if not, let me know and I'll
walk
you through the process.

The reason this should work is because we never are getting far enough to
boot the SATA nor the IDE drive! Instead, the BootIt NG floppy or CD is
being booted FIRST. Therefore, we can gain access to both the HDs and at
least can perform a partition COPY or partition IMAGE operation from one
drive to the other. Of course, this doesn't solve the underlying
problem.
You'll still need to disconnect the IDE drive before booting the SATA
drive
to avoid the blue screens. BUT, you will at least have a copy of that
SATA
install on the IDE drive. Heck, you can even image copy the SATA drive
to
CD\DVD media if you prefer.

Btw, I see no reason the IDE drive wouldn't be bootable as long as you
made
sure you COPIED (as opposed to IMAGED) the SATA partition(s) over to the
IDE
drive, AND, made sure that the partition was marked bootable. From the
partition manager, Hit "View MBR", and in the dialog, you will notice
four
entries in the MBR (Master Boot Record). Each entry w/ a non-zero
address
represents one of your COPIED partitions. Select the bootable partition
(usually the first MBR entry), hit "Set Active", and the partition will
indicate Active status. Now hit "Std MBR", this will initialize the boot
loader in the MBR. Finally, hit Apply to save the changes. At this
point,
the IDE drive *should* be bootable using the installation copied from the
SATA drive. Of course, I'm not sure that making the IDE drive bootable
is
really what you're after, I'm merely saying you could make it happen, if
that proves useful.

But again, none of this addresses the underlying problem, I'm merely
suggesting how to solve the immediate problem of backing up the SATA
installation. At least the use of an external USB enclosure provides a
long
term solution by side-stepping the problem.

HTH

Jim


"D" wrote in message
...
Jim,

This is a relatively new PC (6 months old) so your right, I probably

haven't
experienced all the [disk/boot] issues which are particular to it.

My primary concern is to get a full backup of my data. To do this, due
to
the size (80Gb), I need to get the second harddrive config'ed
successfully
without any Windows re-install.

I have reformatted the IDE drive, to remove any issue with the old
Windows
install on it. (I can't remember if it was formatted with a

system-option;
how do I tell?) It still blue screens and auto-restarts.

I turned auto-restart off in my SATA-based Windows install; and know I
can
see the Blue Screen error:

*** Begin***
A problem has been detected and Windows has been shut down to prevent

damage
to your computer.

If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen, restart
your
computer. If this screen appears again, follow these steps:

Check for viruses on your computer. Remove any newly installed hard
drives
or hard drive controllers. Check your hard drive to make sure it is

properly
configured and terminated. Run CHKDSK /F to check for hard drive

corruption,
and then restart your computer.

Technical information:

*** STOP: 0x0000007B (0xF79F7528, 0xC0000034, 0x00000000, 0x00000000)
*** End***

I then ran IBM's disk fitness against the IDE drive (with only the IDE
attached by cables); this was successful (in both Quick Check and

long-check
option).

I tried another IBM IDE HDD and it errors with the exact same codes when
connected with my SATA array.

In all test cases, except where only the IDE HDD is attached, the SATA

array
is the first boot device and the IDE the second.

What puzzles me is that the IDE HDD used to be attached and visible and
allow SATA-based Windows to boot successfully (The IDE HDD was added
(physically) after the SATA-based HDD Windows was installed). This
tends
to indicate to me that it is a hardware issue; combined with the disk
test
and the other IDE also tested .... but not the particular IDE HDD.

I am now trying cabling options (although I have it set as the master on
a
80' cable by itself on the black-end of the cable, nothing on the
middle-grey end and the blue attached to the m/b as it should be). I'll

try
it on the IDE seperate IDE cable that the DVD burner is (and has always
been) working on).

D.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:7bhaf.16178$i%[email protected]
It's always difficult in a case like this to be positive about what
happened. A lot of details here regarding boot sequence, what was
attached
prior and after OS installation, mobo idiosyncrasies, etc. That said,

it
sounds like you may have a case where the mobo drive assignments (C:,

D:,
etc.) are different when certain hardware components are attached.

For example, I have several USB external HD enclosures. If I leave
them
running when I reboot my Abit AI7 mobo, then the "system" sees the
external
enclosure as the bootable drive, despite the fact I've told the BIOS
it
isn't. No matter what I do, if that USB external enclosure is
running,
the
system INSISTS on trying to boot it. So w/ every reboot, I have to
make
sure the enclosures are shutdown.

The same thing could be occurring w/ your IDE channels. Your BIOS

and/or
Windows may be insisting that if anything is attached to the IDE
channels,
it must be the bootable item. Of course, we know it isn't. I suspect

the
reason it gets to the XP logo and craps out is because it's NOT the
new
install, but the OLD install that's trying to boot. The old install
doesn't
match the new hardware, and well..., all kinds of problems can creep
up
now.
The fact you added the IDE drive AFTER XP was installed may have
exacerbated
the problem too.

I have several suggestions, perhaps none of them ideal. You could

install
XP on the RAID partition again, but this time make sure the IDE drive
is
attached and running at the time. XP will install the boot files on
the
IDE
drive, of course, but the OS will be running off the RAID/SATA drives
(probably as D.

Another option, if you want to force the RAID/SATA drive to be C: is,
install a boot manager on the PATA/IDE drive first (e.g., BootIt NG).
Only
requires a small 8-16mb partition. Now install XP on the RAID/SATA

drive.
When the system boots, it will boot the PATA/IDE drive, *but* that
will
only
boot the boot manager! From there, your boot manager can boot XP (as

C.
This is what I've done on my system. I *always* use a small PATA
drive
for
my boot manager, which in turn boot various OS's from my RAID0

(stripped)
array (in my case, PATA/IDE too). I then use the remaining space on
the
PATA/IDE drive for additional partitions or storing image copies of
partitions on the other drives, so it doesn't go to waste.

Bottomline is, I know this varies a bit from vendor to vendor, but
there
can
be problems in controlling boot order when mixing interfaces, despite
whether the BIOS settings might lead you to believe otherwise. Many
mobo's
insist on a particular sequence that *may* not jive with your

intentions.
And that's what I suspect has happened in your case. To circumvent
the
problem, I've simply made it a habit to maintain a small PATA/IDE
drive
for
my boot manager, then have the boot manager boot the various OS's I
have
installed. Sometimes you have to know when to NOT fight the system

HTH

Jim


"D" wrote in message
...

I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard.

It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a

RAID
1
array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives.

The O/S is Win XP SP2.

All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my

old
PC
(continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array).

However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for
backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to
bring
my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to

ensure
I
had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The
old
install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had
occurred
on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard
succesfully).

The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the

boot
disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue
screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and
the
system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was
stopped
by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but
then

I
kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives
(which
after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped).

All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able

to
recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many

years
and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done

it
whilst having a RAID array.


I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array
remaing
the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data
(too
much
for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I

now
know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically
on
crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of
cabling
the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my

data.

- Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old
windows
install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup

back?
- Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or

add
it
with specific considerations?
- Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE

drive
in
and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD?

Thanks in advance,
D.












  #7  
Old November 9th 05, 08:46 PM
D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array

So I've bought the external enclosure and put the IDE drive in it.

The enclosure is both USB 1.1/2.0 and Firewire compatible.

I connected it via Firewire and received the same BSOD STOP 0X0000007B
(0XF79F7528 0XC0000034 0X00000000 0X0000000).

I don't wnat to try the USB just yet as this problem may corrupt my Windows
installation on the SATA RAID array; I'm googling for more info on the STOP
msg.

D.


"D" wrote in message
...

Jim,

I did some more experimenting...

Booting from Acronis CD after re-attaching IDE drive to system didn't work
(can't remember the detail now, I've done so much in the last couple of
hrs). I moved the IDE drive to the same cable as the DVD burner and that
didn't work either.

I detached both SATA drives and booted from Acronis Cd again ... and
Acronis can see the IDE drive now! Still seems to be when IDE and RAID
are bot on machine ...

I did find a peculair problem with the way the BIOS works.... the 4
settings 'IDE [Primary/MASter] [Master/Slave] RAID' need to be all
'Disabled' in my case to ensure that RAID is not being 'attempted'(?) on
my IDE drive. Secondly, whenever the 2 settings 'On=Chip IDE Channel[0/1]'
are disabled and then re-enabled, yu must go back to the 'Standard CMOS
Features' and set the IDE Channel devices to AUTO (otherwise the
disable/enable has forced them to 'NONE'!). After this, I ensure that the
RAID array is the first of the HDD boot priority followed by the IDE HDD.
Now I have the IDE (and DVD) devices being detected on boot startup (which
I probably had before but have changed various BIOS settings and not
discovery the full impact of this disable-enable).

Presuming that the system partition on the IDE drive was perhaps an issue,
I then I booted of the Win XP Pro CD and chose to delete the partition on
the IDE drive. When I then re-booted, I got back to the origional BSOD
with the same error code as before. So I removed the IDE drive thinking
the RAID array would be okay as before (and at worst, get the dirty bit
set on D: and E. Wrong! Even worse, Windows came back:
"Windows could not start because the following file is missing or corrupt.
\Windows\system32\config\system"

I now *potentially* put this down to using the Win XP CD to remove the IDE
partition without having F6-loaded the NVidia RAID drivers ... imagining
that XP has corrupted the Windows install on the RAID array as with no
RAID driver it sees the two underlying disks....

Panic set in as it looked like I may have lost it all.

I used Win XP CD to boot again but this time loading the Nvidia RAID
drivers. I then went to recovery console and could see all my partitions
(on a single disk, due to the RAID driver). Phew - it looked like all the
files were there. The referenced \Windows\system32\config\system file
was there timestamped at approx the time I deleted the IDE partition (as
well as other files tstp'ed at the same time in same dir).

As I didn't want to start to play with recovery console commands I knew
nothing about, I decided to attempt to re-boot off the RAID array and try
'Last known good config' .... and low and behold Windows came up under the
RAID array! I had run nothing other than help commands under the recovery
console and a 'bootcfg /list' and 'bootcfg /scan'; the list showed 'no
boot entries' and the scan '1 windows install - C:\Windows'. However, I
was *not* asked to choose the only install ([1]) *nor* ran bootcfg /add
nor /rebuild.

I am now at the point that I will not recable the IDE HDD; instead your
option 1 of moving it to a USB or firewaire enclosure seems the only safe
option.

Any opinion re USB or firewire (re which tends to normally 'just work';
transfer speeds, and portability (obviously USB is better, right)).

Note: DVD burning is not an option for backup as I have 50Gb of data (my
wifes graphic design files!).

Hopefully this may have ben helpful for someone with one of these Gigabyte
M/Bs and decides:
1. Don't frig around with RAID, as additions of other drives later may
cause you to lose all your data.

I will now choose to not use RAID (and if absolutely had to do RAID,
would only do it with full hardware support).

Note: My RAID 1 setup has worked flawlessly for 6 months; it was just
adding the extra IDE HDD that caused the issues., and
2. If you do need to add another drive, ensure you have a full backup via
an option which doesn't require cabling internally a new drive.



Regards,
D.

"D" wrote in message
...
Jim,

You have a very good point; I had been planning to move this setup to a
USB or fireware enabled removable drive setup.

Before I do, I also have Acronis 8.0. So, given I don't have the
removable drive option at home, I decided to boot from the Acronis
CD-ROM. I changed the BIOS to have my DVD drive as the first boot device
(with all other bo0t devices set to 'None') ... and the IDE drive
attached. The result is that the PC still boots from the SATA RAID
array, bringing windows up!!! This was most unexpected and shows that
there is more at play here...

I've googled re the mobo (GA-KA8NXP-SLI) and sata, ide etc and found
several sources of people were having drive problems. Unfortunately none
seem to be attemptin a RAID array and a non-raided IDE drive. From them,
there were interesting comments to note:

http://groups.google.com.au/group/al...3bde4f7e5248e9
As you may or may not be aware, the on-board RAID controllers are not
true
hardware RAID controllers, and therefore need specific Windows based
drivers
to perform the RAID functions, and as such are vulnerable to corruption
caused by software conflicts/crashes within windows.
On the other hand, a fully hardware based RAID controller is transparent
to,
and completely independent of the OS used on the PC, and does not require
any drivers to be loaded into the OS for it's correct operation. I assume
this would result in the arrays on a true hardware based controller being
less vulnerable to software issues within the OS.

If the above is true, I am not sure that Acronis (or Bootitng) will be
able to copy the SATA array as it won't have a driver like windows to
interpret it.

The above, if true, also leads me to think that a RAID array implemented
with software (which I didn't know) is less robust. I had chosen to
implement a RAID-1 array to make my data more secure!

That post also alludes to a 'nVidia hardware/BIOS/driver
issue/conflict'....

That fact that there are a number of posts/forums where there are issues
with RAID arrays on this mobo doesn't look good.



I am now going to try and only have the IDE cabled in and boot from the
Acronis CD which should tell me more. If that doesn;t work, I'll attach
the IDE HDD to the same cable my DVD drive is on .... maybe a bad IDE
cable??? I'll tell you how I go.


D.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:4Mgbf.17451$i%[email protected]
Ok, I think have a decent "lay of the land" here on this problem. I'm
not
quite sure what you did to actually cause the failure of the SATA array
to
boot when the IDE drive is attached, but since you did manage to get the
transfer completed and drive wiped, what remains is finding some way to
get
your current SATA array backed up. I assume if your IDE drive is NOT
attached, the SATA array will still boot, correct?

Two solutions, option #1 is straight-forward, but costs a few bucks.
Option
#2 is free, but slightly more complex.

Option #1: Get yourself a cheap USB enclosure for your IDE HD. These
can be
had for $25-35 online (see Dealsonic.com, they have loads of 'em).
Because
the interface is USB, all you have to do is boot the SATA array, power
up
the enclosure, and insert the USB cable. Windows will recognize it and
whalla, you have access to the storage for whatever purposes you like,
including imaging the OS on the SATA drive.

Option #2 (should be done w/ SATA and IDE drives installed): Visit
http://www.bootitng.com and make yourself either a bootable floppy or
CD.
Boot the floppy/CD, and when the Welcome screen appears, hit Cancel, and
follow the prompts until you reach the partition manager. Now use the
partition manager to COPY or IMAGE the SATA partition(s) over to the IDE
drive. It should be fairly intuitive, but if not, let me know and I'll
walk
you through the process.

The reason this should work is because we never are getting far enough
to
boot the SATA nor the IDE drive! Instead, the BootIt NG floppy or CD is
being booted FIRST. Therefore, we can gain access to both the HDs and
at
least can perform a partition COPY or partition IMAGE operation from one
drive to the other. Of course, this doesn't solve the underlying
problem.
You'll still need to disconnect the IDE drive before booting the SATA
drive
to avoid the blue screens. BUT, you will at least have a copy of that
SATA
install on the IDE drive. Heck, you can even image copy the SATA drive
to
CD\DVD media if you prefer.

Btw, I see no reason the IDE drive wouldn't be bootable as long as you
made
sure you COPIED (as opposed to IMAGED) the SATA partition(s) over to the
IDE
drive, AND, made sure that the partition was marked bootable. From the
partition manager, Hit "View MBR", and in the dialog, you will notice
four
entries in the MBR (Master Boot Record). Each entry w/ a non-zero
address
represents one of your COPIED partitions. Select the bootable partition
(usually the first MBR entry), hit "Set Active", and the partition will
indicate Active status. Now hit "Std MBR", this will initialize the
boot
loader in the MBR. Finally, hit Apply to save the changes. At this
point,
the IDE drive *should* be bootable using the installation copied from
the
SATA drive. Of course, I'm not sure that making the IDE drive bootable
is
really what you're after, I'm merely saying you could make it happen, if
that proves useful.

But again, none of this addresses the underlying problem, I'm merely
suggesting how to solve the immediate problem of backing up the SATA
installation. At least the use of an external USB enclosure provides a
long
term solution by side-stepping the problem.

HTH

Jim


"D" wrote in message
...
Jim,

This is a relatively new PC (6 months old) so your right, I probably
haven't
experienced all the [disk/boot] issues which are particular to it.

My primary concern is to get a full backup of my data. To do this, due
to
the size (80Gb), I need to get the second harddrive config'ed
successfully
without any Windows re-install.

I have reformatted the IDE drive, to remove any issue with the old
Windows
install on it. (I can't remember if it was formatted with a
system-option;
how do I tell?) It still blue screens and auto-restarts.

I turned auto-restart off in my SATA-based Windows install; and know I
can
see the Blue Screen error:

*** Begin***
A problem has been detected and Windows has been shut down to prevent
damage
to your computer.

If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen, restart
your
computer. If this screen appears again, follow these steps:

Check for viruses on your computer. Remove any newly installed hard
drives
or hard drive controllers. Check your hard drive to make sure it is
properly
configured and terminated. Run CHKDSK /F to check for hard drive
corruption,
and then restart your computer.

Technical information:

*** STOP: 0x0000007B (0xF79F7528, 0xC0000034, 0x00000000, 0x00000000)
*** End***

I then ran IBM's disk fitness against the IDE drive (with only the IDE
attached by cables); this was successful (in both Quick Check and
long-check
option).

I tried another IBM IDE HDD and it errors with the exact same codes
when
connected with my SATA array.

In all test cases, except where only the IDE HDD is attached, the SATA
array
is the first boot device and the IDE the second.

What puzzles me is that the IDE HDD used to be attached and visible and
allow SATA-based Windows to boot successfully (The IDE HDD was added
(physically) after the SATA-based HDD Windows was installed). This
tends
to indicate to me that it is a hardware issue; combined with the disk
test
and the other IDE also tested .... but not the particular IDE HDD.

I am now trying cabling options (although I have it set as the master
on a
80' cable by itself on the black-end of the cable, nothing on the
middle-grey end and the blue attached to the m/b as it should be).
I'll
try
it on the IDE seperate IDE cable that the DVD burner is (and has always
been) working on).

D.

"Jim" wrote in message
news:7bhaf.16178$i%[email protected]
It's always difficult in a case like this to be positive about what
happened. A lot of details here regarding boot sequence, what was
attached
prior and after OS installation, mobo idiosyncrasies, etc. That
said,
it
sounds like you may have a case where the mobo drive assignments (C:,
D:,
etc.) are different when certain hardware components are attached.

For example, I have several USB external HD enclosures. If I leave
them
running when I reboot my Abit AI7 mobo, then the "system" sees the
external
enclosure as the bootable drive, despite the fact I've told the BIOS
it
isn't. No matter what I do, if that USB external enclosure is
running,
the
system INSISTS on trying to boot it. So w/ every reboot, I have to
make
sure the enclosures are shutdown.

The same thing could be occurring w/ your IDE channels. Your BIOS
and/or
Windows may be insisting that if anything is attached to the IDE
channels,
it must be the bootable item. Of course, we know it isn't. I
suspect
the
reason it gets to the XP logo and craps out is because it's NOT the
new
install, but the OLD install that's trying to boot. The old install
doesn't
match the new hardware, and well..., all kinds of problems can creep
up
now.
The fact you added the IDE drive AFTER XP was installed may have
exacerbated
the problem too.

I have several suggestions, perhaps none of them ideal. You could
install
XP on the RAID partition again, but this time make sure the IDE drive
is
attached and running at the time. XP will install the boot files on
the
IDE
drive, of course, but the OS will be running off the RAID/SATA drives
(probably as D.

Another option, if you want to force the RAID/SATA drive to be C: is,
install a boot manager on the PATA/IDE drive first (e.g., BootIt NG).
Only
requires a small 8-16mb partition. Now install XP on the RAID/SATA
drive.
When the system boots, it will boot the PATA/IDE drive, *but* that
will
only
boot the boot manager! From there, your boot manager can boot XP (as
C.
This is what I've done on my system. I *always* use a small PATA
drive
for
my boot manager, which in turn boot various OS's from my RAID0
(stripped)
array (in my case, PATA/IDE too). I then use the remaining space on
the
PATA/IDE drive for additional partitions or storing image copies of
partitions on the other drives, so it doesn't go to waste.

Bottomline is, I know this varies a bit from vendor to vendor, but
there
can
be problems in controlling boot order when mixing interfaces, despite
whether the BIOS settings might lead you to believe otherwise. Many
mobo's
insist on a particular sequence that *may* not jive with your
intentions.
And that's what I suspect has happened in your case. To circumvent
the
problem, I've simply made it a habit to maintain a small PATA/IDE
drive
for
my boot manager, then have the boot manager boot the various OS's I
have
installed. Sometimes you have to know when to NOT fight the system


HTH

Jim


"D" wrote in message
...

I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard.

It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a
RAID
1
array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives.

The O/S is Win XP SP2.

All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my
old
PC
(continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array).

However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used
for
backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to
bring
my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to
ensure
I
had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The
old
install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had
occurred
on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard
succesfully).

The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the
boot
disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would
blue
screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and
the
system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was
stopped
by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but
then
I
kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives
(which
after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped).

All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being
able
to
recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many
years
and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've
done
it
whilst having a RAID array.


I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array
remaing
the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data
(too
much
for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I
now
know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically
on
crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of
cabling
the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my
data.

- Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old
windows
install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup
back?
- Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action
or
add
it
with specific considerations?
- Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE
drive
in
and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD?

Thanks in advance,
D.














  #8  
Old November 10th 05, 03:56 PM
chrisv
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array

D top posted:

So I've bought the external enclosure and put the IDE drive in it.

The enclosure is both USB 1.1/2.0 and Firewire compatible.

I connected it via Firewire and received the same BSOD STOP 0X0000007B
(0XF79F7528 0XC0000034 0X00000000 0X0000000).

I don't wnat to try the USB just yet as this problem may corrupt my Windows
installation on the SATA RAID array; I'm googling for more info on the STOP
msg.


520 lines for that, top poster? Ever hear of trimming?

  #9  
Old November 14th 05, 11:14 AM
D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array


"D" wrote in message
...
So I've bought the external enclosure and put the IDE drive in it.

The enclosure is both USB 1.1/2.0 and Firewire compatible.

I connected it via Firewire and received the same BSOD STOP 0X0000007B
(0XF79F7528 0XC0000034 0X00000000 0X0000000).

I don't wnat to try the USB just yet as this problem may corrupt my
Windows installation on the SATA RAID array; I'm googling for more info on
the STOP msg.

D.


I tried the USB option with the same result; but adding the USB connection
*after* Win XP has successfully started has been successful.

D.


  #10  
Old November 24th 05, 11:00 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array

D wrote:


"D" wrote in message
...
So I've bought the external enclosure and put the IDE drive in it.

The enclosure is both USB 1.1/2.0 and Firewire compatible.

I connected it via Firewire and received the same BSOD STOP
0X0000007B (0XF79F7528 0XC0000034 0X00000000 0X0000000).

I don't wnat to try the USB just yet as this problem may corrupt my
Windows installation on the SATA RAID array; I'm googling for more
info on the STOP msg.

D.


I tried the USB option with the same result; but adding the USB
connection after Win XP has successfully started has been successful.

D.



D,
I have had a very similar problem: my computer boots off an NVIDIA SATA
raid array. I got into a state whereby if I added any other drive, IDE,
firewire, USB etc, then the machine would STOP 0x0000007B if the
additional drive was connected at boot time.


I fixed the problem by downloading the latest chipset drivers from
NVIDIA (nForce 6.70) and and re-installing them. My understanding of
the problem is sketchy but I when I originally ran the nForce setup
(immediately after I installed XP) I had two raid arrays: one on SATA
and one on PATA. The PATA array was subsequently removed. After this,
the nvidia driver seemed to get the idea that any additional harddrive
should be an nvidia raid array, causing it to fail & making the boot
volume inaccessible, hence 0x0000007B. By removing all drives except
the boot array, booting the machine and re-installing the driver the
nvidia driver now seems to correctly limit its interest to the single
volume it can control - the SATA-raid array.

Although this worked for me, I would strongly recommend you get any
important data off your boot volume before you try this.

regards

Martin.

--



 




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