Power supply, Motherboard, or something else?

Umm,

I will have to read your reply another time or two to digest it, but I got
the basic idea. The machine went bad not long after I started using a new
(and less-expensive than my old one) UPS after I moved overseas and found
out that while my computers were dual voltage, the expensive UPS I had in
the US was not.

I saw the discussion on the badcaps forum you mentioned.

What's probably going to occur is that I'm going to have to scrap the entire
Zalman case and put the components into another case.

So do I understand correctly that a non-sine wave UPS is inferior to and
less expensive than a sine wave version?

I seem to remember that the one I purchased was less expensive than others
of the same brand for some reason that I didn't understand.




"Paul" wrote in message ...

Jeff wrote:
It appears that it is the power supply. I was able to find a spare and
after plugging it in, the fan I plugged in stays on and so does the case's
power light. The problem I will have is that the machine is a discontinued
Zalman TNN300 totally noiseless with built-in power supply. I ran into one
other post on-line where someone with more electrical experience than I
have was speaking about attempting to repair the PS, but nothing else.
I've emailed the merchant who sold me the case to see whether they know of
an option. From what I gather, there was an external power supply for
desktops made at one point, but it looks like that was discontinued also.


Any ideas?

The sad part is, the state of the Zalman business right now.
They were bought by some other corporation, then the
other corporation had financial trouble. It's expected Zalman could
survive, but I don't know in the interim, what it might mean
for customer service. And whether you could still contact them
for suggestions.

That power supply has a fairly unique form factor. It could be
that some of the power components are mated to one side of the
supply, so the heat can flow into the case wall.

There are (or were) some fanless PSUs, up to around 400W. But
at least some of these, they're probably relying on airflow
from remaining fans in the computer case, to help the supply
meet the power rating. If the supply was put into a tight box,
it would likely overheat. Whereas the Zalman solution, is more
likely to be using conduction rather than convection.

Someone on the badcaps forum tried to work on a Zalman supply,
and couldn't figure it out. It appeared in their case, that
the Active PFC front end burned up. That could happen, if
the TNN300 was powered by a non-sine wave UPS. There have
been cases from when Active PFC first came out, where the
kind of UPS used, influenced the health of the power supply.
One of the side effects of Active PFC, is it places more
DC on the high voltage side of the supply. So instead of
320V on the hot side of the main cap, it might be 380V or so.
This is all part of how the active PFC stage is able to adjust
the phase angle of the current the supply draws. The naive
PFC design relies on the input waveform always being a sine
wave (as the PFC strives to draw a current waveform, which
matches the shape of the incoming voltage waveform). When a
square wave UPS is connected to one of those supplies, then the PFC
is trying to make the current draw look like a matching square
wave. Which to my way of thinking, could lead to some
interesting results (because there is still a filter on
the input stage, which has to eat the exotic waveform
coming from the PFC).

Now you know why Paul is careful not to buy Active PFC supplies.
Not because they're not good supplies, but Paul knows his
UPS is one of the bad kind :-) I have to make do with my
current contingent of supplies, because it would be
relatively hard to find one without some PFC considerations.
And I plan to get a few more years out of my $300 UPS.

Another source of power would be a Pico supply, but they're
not powerful enough for anything but small projects. You
would need a laptop load, or a mini-ITX motherboard, to be
in range of the power capabilities of one of these.

http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=10#picoPSU-160-XT

You could also place a regular ATX outside the Zalman, and
run 24 pin extender cables. A pathetic solution, but, it's
another way to do it.

http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-8-Inc.../dp/B000FL60AI

Fanless Seasonic, with modular cabling. Always check the
reviews on the fanless ones, to get some idea the kind
of electrical load they've been tested with (by te
reviewers). And yes, this is active PFC. I can't imagine
them not doing that now.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817151097

Paul

Jeff wrote:
Umm,

I will have to read your reply another time or two to digest it, but I
got the basic idea. The machine went bad not long after I started using
a new (and less-expensive than my old one) UPS after I moved overseas
and found out that while my computers were dual voltage, the expensive
UPS I had in the US was not.

I saw the discussion on the badcaps forum you mentioned.

What's probably going to occur is that I'm going to have to scrap the
entire Zalman case and put the components into another case.

So do I understand correctly that a non-sine wave UPS is inferior to and
less expensive than a sine wave version?

I seem to remember that the one I purchased was less expensive than
others of the same brand for some reason that I didn't understand.

The step approximation to a sine is definitely cheaper than a
pure sine UPS. That's how you can make a $50 UPS.

The blue waveform here, is what my UPS would be doing. It's
a step, which crudely approximates a sine wave. It would have
a high harmonic content.

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.6080...9&pid=15.1&P=0

I'm not sure what the red waveform in that picture is meant to imply.
I thought for pure sine, they're a lot better approximation than that.

The red waveform here isn't bad. Maybe not "home theater"
quality (in the Monster cable sense, not the practical sense),
but probably good enough for some Active PFC computer supplies.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/wp-...d%2520sine.png

This is an example of a cheap pure sine. It must be in the
bottom tier, based on the failure reports from the users.
A three year battery life isn't exactly something to
celebrate. On my UPS, I got ten years from the battery
(amazing). And I purchased a new battery cartridge and
it's as good as new.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16842102133

For some reason, this one has better reviews, and is
very similar to the previous one. This one has AVR
(automatic voltage regulation), where the unit can
buck or boost the AC which is still flowing from the
utility. Which is fine if your utility allows the
voltage to wander all over the place.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16842102134

There are an amazing number of different architectures
for UPS designs. And it's pretty hard to stay current
on how they're able to do this for the price point.
At one time, they would have been $1000 or so.

Those units don't have nearly enough runtime, if
you planned on "running off-grid" for a while
on a failure. THey're basically rated high enough,
so that you can do a clean shutdown on the computer,
and that's about all. That is, if you're running them
near the stated limits (the Watt or Volt-Ampere rating).

Paul

On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 10:30:06 AM UTC-7, Jeff wrote:
One of my desktops (built a few years ago) right now not only won't boot,
but won't even get to the bios. I get no video output at all. This is a
fanless system with fanless power supply so it's a bit harder to tell what's
going on. When I hit the power button, I can hear it click on. Some type of
power is getting to the MB, since the power light on the MB is on. When I
attach a case fan to the motherboard it starts for a second and then shuts
off. If I push and hold the power button, I can hear the power supply click
off. I don't have a spare power supply right now that isn't already
installed in a computer, so it will be harder for me to test the machine
with a different PS. Since I can hear the PS turn on and off and the fan
runs briefly, I suspect that it isn't the power supply and is likely the MB.

If it turns on, even briefly, it probably means that the main +5V (as
opposed to the +5Vstandby -- the thing that powers the motherboard LED)
is working, at least sort of. Fans running means the +12V is putting
out at least +5V - +6V. One way to test these is with a DVD or CD
drive. It doesn't matter whether it's SATA or PATA; just connect it
to the power supply, and if you can open and close the door through
the button, very likely the +12V and +5V are OK because these drives
won't work if those voltages are 10% below specs. But all this
leaves the +3.3V in question, which most motherboards need to
power many of the smaller chips, and I don't know how to test it
except with a multimeter. Cheap digital meters, including the ones
that are usually less than $3 or even free from Harbor Freight with
a coupon and any purchase, are fine for testing this.

So did the computer work when you tried the other power supply?

Could these products be covered by a credit card? Most cards
add up to a year of coverage over the manufacturer's warranty
if latter is up to 1 year (Mastercard), 3 years (Visa and,
more recently, Discover), and American Express (5 years). Coverage
don't apply until after the manufacturer's warranty has expired,
but if the manufacturer is out of business, you should be able
to contest this as a billing error because you paid for not just
the product but also its warranty and didn't get the warranty.

Diesel wrote in
. 233.145:

"Jeff" Wed,
31 Dec 2014 22:59:15 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote:

It appears that it is the power supply. I was able to find a spare
and after plugging it in, the fan I plugged in stays on and so does
the case's power light. The problem I will have is that the machine
is a discontinued Zalman TNN300 totally noiseless with built-in
power supply. I ran into one other post on-line where someone with
more electrical experience than I have was speaking about
attempting to repair the PS, but nothing else. I've emailed the
merchant who sold me the case to see whether they know of an
option. From what I gather, there was an external power supply for
desktops made at one point, but it looks like that was discontinued
also.

Oops. nevermind. I was obviously, late to the thread here.

Why are you nym shifting within a single thread? You posted as
Gremlin and now as Diesel. You're BUSTED!

--
Jax

In article
Jax wrote:

Diesel wrote in
. 233.145:

"Jeff" Wed,
31 Dec 2014 22:59:15 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote:

It appears that it is the power supply. I was able to find a spare
and after plugging it in, the fan I plugged in stays on and so does
the case's power light. The problem I will have is that the machine
is a discontinued Zalman TNN300 totally noiseless with built-in
power supply. I ran into one other post on-line where someone with
more electrical experience than I have was speaking about
attempting to repair the PS, but nothing else. I've emailed the
merchant who sold me the case to see whether they know of an
option. From what I gather, there was an external power supply for
desktops made at one point, but it looks like that was discontinued
also.

Oops. nevermind. I was obviously, late to the thread here.

Why are you nym shifting within a single thread? You posted as
Gremlin and now as Diesel. You're BUSTED!

--
Jax

Ignore the "insult" from a previous post, Jax.

I posted that I couldn't believe you didn't figure out that DuckLiar
was forging his own headers.

Glad to see your on board.

The BBS crap in SE is what told me for sure it he doing his own dirty
work and not some "forger".

On 31/12/2014 12:29 PM, Jeff wrote:
One of my desktops (built a few years ago) right now not only won't
boot, but won't even get to the bios. I get no video output at all. This
is a fanless system with fanless power supply so it's a bit harder to
tell what's going on. When I hit the power button, I can hear it click
on. Some type of power is getting to the MB, since the power light on
the MB is on. When I attach a case fan to the motherboard it starts for
a second and then shuts off. If I push and hold the power button, I can
hear the power supply click off. I don't have a spare power supply right
now that isn't already installed in a computer, so it will be harder for
me to test the machine with a different PS. Since I can hear the PS turn
on and off and the fan runs briefly, I suspect that it isn't the power
supply and is likely the MB.

Any ideas about how I might figure out exactly what the problem is
before I start taking this thing apart?

You can get a power supply tester, that looks something like this:

http://img.weiku.com/waterpicture/20...37711902_5.jpg

Or even something a bit more sophisticated like this one:

http://www.quietpc.com/images/products/x_psu_tester.jpg

Yousuf Khan

Yousuf Khan wrote:

You can get a power supply tester, that looks something like this:

http://img.weiku.com/waterpicture/20...37711902_5.jpg


Or even something a bit more sophisticated like this one:

http://www.quietpc.com/images/products/x_psu_tester.jpg

Yousuf Khan


Thanks for posting this. It's nice to be aware of items like
this...pretty affordable too.

I received the following suggested work-around for an external power supply
(the two links below) from the place I bought the case from a few years ago.
I might go for it at some point, but for now I have other machines to use.
One was built in a Moneual case. As I was reading up on this issue, I came
across some info on Zalman that elaborates upon what you've mentioned below.
Apparently, Moneual bought Zalman and then the CEOs engaged in some type of
fraud where they were claiming much higher sales than they actually had.
From what was claimed in the article I read on-line, this was done on
purpose in order to default on loans and use the money for other reasons. So
now when I look up Moneual to get info on my case, the only thing they are
currently selling is robotic vacuum cleaners. Bizarre.

By the way, I did hook up my Zalman machine to another power supply and it
booted just fine. I'll have to learn to use a meter in the future.

Thanks for the help and info.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...age_o04_s00?ie
=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...age_o04_s00?ie
=UTF8&psc=1


"Paul" wrote in message .

The sad part is, the state of the Zalman business right now.
They were bought by some other corporation, then the
other corporation had financial trouble. It's expected Zalman could
survive, but I don't know in the interim, what it might mean
for customer service. And whether you could still contact them
for suggestions.

On Sun, 4 Jan 2015 20:23:15 +1000, "Jeff" wrote:

The sad part is, the state of the Zalman business right now.
They were bought by some other corporation, then the
other corporation had financial trouble. It's expected Zalman could
survive, but I don't know in the interim, what it might mean
for customer service. And whether you could still contact them
for suggestions.

Don't think I've bought from Zalman - noticed, but they were a little
to edgy on the high prices for my tastes No doubt certainly catchy and
a reasonably popular brand. Then, I'm invariably buying for the
highest matrices of standardization (components swap easily). There's
still a lot of leeway for styles, all kinds of mini/mid designs, and
such in that. I just like whatever gets a computational end through
fastest for the least monetary outlay over the longest foreseeable
time.

Jeff wrote:
I received the following suggested work-around for an external power
supply (the two links below) from the place I bought the case from a few
years ago. I might go for it at some point, but for now I have other
machines to use. One was built in a Moneual case. As I was reading up on
this issue, I came across some info on Zalman that elaborates upon what
you've mentioned below. Apparently, Moneual bought Zalman and then the
CEOs engaged in some type of fraud where they were claiming much higher
sales than they actually had. From what was claimed in the article I
read on-line, this was done on purpose in order to default on loans and
use the money for other reasons. So now when I look up Moneual to get
info on my case, the only thing they are currently selling is robotic
vacuum cleaners. Bizarre.

By the way, I did hook up my Zalman machine to another power supply and
it booted just fine. I'll have to learn to use a meter in the future.

Thanks for the help and info.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...age_o04_s00?ie

=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...age_o04_s00?ie

=UTF8&psc=1


"Paul" wrote in message .

The sad part is, the state of the Zalman business right now.
They were bought by some other corporation, then the
other corporation had financial trouble. It's expected Zalman could
survive, but I don't know in the interim, what it might mean
for customer service. And whether you could still contact them
for suggestions.

The specs for that one are on page 3. Note well some of the
operating conditions.

http://www.mini-itx.com/store/inform...PSU-150-XT.pdf

"For fanless operation de-rate the output of the 3.3 and 5V
rails by ~35% or ensure PSU surface temperature should not
exceed 65C, whichever comes first.

Input current should not exceed 8A. For current higher loads,
we suggest using a 2x2 mini-FIT JR as an input connector.
"

It doesn't regulate the 12V onboard. The adapter feeding it
handles the +12V. The 8A rating is a "wires and connectors" rating,
and the warning there is to use good interconnect getting current
into the Pico and out of the Pico. The other rails regulate onboard
and generate heat while doing so.

It generates +3.3V, +5V, +5VSB (standby supply), -12V (for RS232 port).

It's highly efficient, but it also has no surface area, so the
convection cooling is not going to be all that good. And 65C, if
you stick a finger on it, your finger can only stay there for a
second or two. That's a quick way to guestimate what 65C is.

*******

The only time I'd use a Pico, is if space was at a premium.

The difference with supplies like this, is the power-dissipating
components usually have a slightly bigger heatsink.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817151097

http://c1.neweggimages.com/BizIntell...51-097/12v.jpg

3,3V 20A, 5V 20A, 12V 33A, -12V 0.5A, 5VSB 2.5A
---- 100W ----
--------------------- 400W ------------------

If you're in-range for a Pico, maybe that can indeed
run fanless with that tiny loading. If you actually
wanted to run it at "399W", then I would slap a
Vantec Stealth cooling fan to the top of the PSU,
and give it forced air cooling.

When you use convection cooling, conditions matter a lot.
If you put that Seasonic *inside* the Zalman case, it
would likely cook. (It would have thermal protection,
so would shut off as a warning things aren't going well.)
If retrofitting to the Zalman, I would mount it on the
outside. Then look at the heatsinks on the unit, to
optimize the convection process. The hardest part, is
protecting the supply from "spilled beverage syndrome".
One poster here had an issue like that, when a computer
case with holes in the top, a beverage was spilled and
it entered the power supply, to the tune of a lot
of sizzling from the mains electricity. And obviously,
fitting any kind of "lid" over the Zalman, spoils the
convection.

The first product I worked on out of university, it
was convection cooled. And a lot of effort went into
designing louvers to shape the available convection airflow,
to do the best we could with absolutely crappy cooling
conditions. Lucky for us, the boards that did the
work in the product used ECL, which loves to run hot.
(Heat was like a "lubricant" for that old bipolar
stuff - if you burned yourself touching a ceramic
chip lid, that was in the right range. It was "warmed
up" :-) ) If only CMOS was so happy-go-lucky.

Paul