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#1
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New Window 7 build
For the first time in quite a while, I'm assembling a primary desktop
strictly to run Win 7 Ultimate (32-bit). I acquired the OS when I was a Technet subscriber and hadn't worked with 64-bit systems much, so 32-bit was my first choice. After reflection, I may eventually go the 64-bit Win 7 Professional route, but that's not on the plate yet. As it sits, I have the following major components: Gigabyte GA EP45-UD3P mobo (Intel P45 chip) Powercolor AX 3650 1GBD2-V2 Radeon HD 3650 1GB video card. Antec Sonata 2 case Sometime in the next few days, I'm getting these components: Intel Core2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale CPU WD Caviar WD1001FALS 1TB Sata drive 4Gb (2x2GB) G.Skill PC2 8500 sticks Here's my thought: Instead the Core Duo E8500, would it make sense to get the E8400 Quad core on the possibility of switching over to 64-bit Professional. I guess what I'm really asking is a) is it possible to run 64-bit Win 7 on the Core Duo without a serious performance hit? From the other direction, will the Quad core run efficiently with 32-bit Ultimate? This is going to be what i call a "6-year" machine. No significant upgrades, other than more memory with a 64-bit CPU, until it's time to build another primary. (I already have machines dedicated to audio, graphic, photo workflow, etc.) Any thoughts? All input appreciated as to the new build. |
#2
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New Window 7 build
Ron wrote:
For the first time in quite a while, I'm assembling a primary desktop strictly to run Win 7 Ultimate (32-bit). I acquired the OS when I was a Technet subscriber and hadn't worked with 64-bit systems much, so 32-bit was my first choice. After reflection, I may eventually go the 64-bit Win 7 Professional route, but that's not on the plate yet. As it sits, I have the following major components: Gigabyte GA EP45-UD3P mobo (Intel P45 chip) Powercolor AX 3650 1GBD2-V2 Radeon HD 3650 1GB video card. Antec Sonata 2 case Sometime in the next few days, I'm getting these components: Intel Core2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale CPU WD Caviar WD1001FALS 1TB Sata drive 4Gb (2x2GB) G.Skill PC2 8500 sticks Here's my thought: Instead the Core Duo E8500, would it make sense to get the E8400 Quad core on the possibility of switching over to 64-bit Professional. I guess what I'm really asking is a) is it possible to run 64-bit Win 7 on the Core Duo without a serious performance hit? From the other direction, will the Quad core run efficiently with 32-bit Ultimate? This is going to be what i call a "6-year" machine. No significant upgrades, other than more memory with a 64-bit CPU, until it's time to build another primary. (I already have machines dedicated to audio, graphic, photo workflow, etc.) Any thoughts? All input appreciated as to the new build. Should have mentioned I'll add another HD after the initial setup, but not for RAID. I back up to my server. Ron |
#3
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New Window 7 build
Ron wrote:
For the first time in quite a while, I'm assembling a primary desktop strictly to run Win 7 Ultimate (32-bit). I acquired the OS when I was a Technet subscriber and hadn't worked with 64-bit systems much, so 32-bit was my first choice. After reflection, I may eventually go the 64-bit Win 7 Professional route, but that's not on the plate yet. As it sits, I have the following major components: Gigabyte GA EP45-UD3P mobo (Intel P45 chip) Powercolor AX 3650 1GBD2-V2 Radeon HD 3650 1GB video card. Antec Sonata 2 case Sometime in the next few days, I'm getting these components: Intel Core2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale CPU WD Caviar WD1001FALS 1TB Sata drive 4Gb (2x2GB) G.Skill PC2 8500 sticks Here's my thought: Instead the Core Duo E8500, would it make sense to get the E8400 Quad core on the possibility of switching over to 64-bit Professional. I guess what I'm really asking is a) is it possible to run 64-bit Win 7 on the Core Duo without a serious performance hit? From the other direction, will the Quad core run efficiently with 32-bit Ultimate? This is going to be what i call a "6-year" machine. No significant upgrades, other than more memory with a 64-bit CPU, until it's time to build another primary. (I already have machines dedicated to audio, graphic, photo workflow, etc.) Any thoughts? All input appreciated as to the new build. First, when buying Intel processors, you should find as much info as you can about the feature set. The various processor families are here. http://ark.intel.com The reason for visiting there, is to make sure you buy a processor that "has all the tick marks". What are the important tick marks ? Let's look in the Core 2 Duo section for example. http://ark.intel.com/ProductCollecti...familyID=26547 Intel Virtualization Technology (VT-x) - this is important if you expect to be able to play with Windows 7 "WinXP Mode", which is a virtual copy of WinXP. An additional benefit of working virtualization, is a lot more virtual OSes may actually boot properly in a tool like VPC2007 (a problem I'm having right now). Hyperthreading (a don't care) Turbo Boost (a don't care) The latter two are associated with the feature set of Core i5 or Core i7 processors and don't affect the ability to try things. If you have them, that's fine, but they're not drop-dead issues. Another place to look, is processorfinder.intel.com, which will list other features not on the ark.intel.com site. This is the entry for your E8500 dual core. http://processorfinder.intel.com/det...px?sSpec=SLB9K # Dual Core (two cores on a single silicon die) # Enhanced Intel Speedstep Technology (save power when idle, by dropping clock speed) # Intel EM64T (supports a 64 bit OS! Important!) # Intel Virtualization Technology (VT-x, for "WinXP mode" in Win7) # Enhanced Halt State (C1E) (save a little more power) # Execute Disable Bit (makes life harder for malware) # Intel Thermal Monitor 2 (limit temp via reduced operating speed) Notes: These parts have Intel Trusted Execution Technology (Intel TXT) enabled. (part of TPM ?) These parts have PROCHOT enabled. (these two are for overheating) These parts have THERMTRIP enabled. These parts have PECI enabled. (digital temperature readout on processor) These parts have Extended Stop Grant State (C2E) enabled. (three items for power saving) These parts have Deep Sleep State (C3E) enabled. These parts have Deeper Sleep State (C4E) enabled. So, out of the above, we want VT-x and EM64T for sure. The rest is window dressing. ******* OK, so what other selection criteria are there ? How about performance ? Performance = Number_of_cores * (clock_rate * instructions_per_clock) Performance scales on applications that are multithreaded. Multimedia applications such as video editing, movie rendering, or even Photoshop, tend to do more "divide and conquer" on the work they do. In such cases, "Number_of_cores" may help. Photoshop may split a picture into four pieces, and run a filter on each piece, on a different core. Other kinds of programs tend to run on a single core, in which case it doesn't matter whether you bought a dual or a quad core. Performance scaling also comes from being able to run a large number of programs at the same time. For example, I could run a copy of SuperPI, compress a movie, and still be able to get responsiveness from that copy of Photoshop I was using. If you multitask on your computer a lot, with demanding stuff running in the background all the time, then a quad core processor is for you. Now, based on the above, "clock_rate" is always good to have. "Clock_rate" helps all kinds of programs. "Number_of_cores" depends more on what you're doing. If you've been using computers for a long time, you probably have a good idea what you like to do. If all you do is Microsoft Word, email, web surfing, you could likely survive with a dual core processor quite nicely. ******* Next, on to "32 bit" versus "64 bit" computing. Why do we want 64 bit computing ? At the present time, the only thing 64 bit computing is good for, is for being able to use all the RAM we stuff in the motherboard. Say I stick 4x2GB of RAM in your computer, using the four slots on your motherboard. To be able to use all of it, I'd want a 64 bit OS. There is currently no other good reason for a 64 bit OS on a desktop. As a matter of fact, let's discuss performance. The Intel Core family of processors, got some of its performance boost from fusing instructions together. http://anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2711&p=3 "macro fusion will allow x86 instructions (before the decode stage) to be fused together and sent down as a single instruction" When the Intel processor runs in 64 bit mode, one of the fusion features can no longer be efficiently used. This means there could be a 10% difference in performance (slower in 64 bit mode). AMD processors have less of a difference between 32 bit and 64 bit modes, maintaining the same efficiency in either mode. So if you're worried about efficiency, you may be better off staying at 32 bits. ******* The features are relatively independent of one another. You can run a 32 bit OS or a 64 bit OS (as long as "EM64T" appears in the feature list). You can run various forms of virtualization, if you have VT-x at a minimum. That seems to be important for certain versions of Windows 7 (WinXP mode is not available in all of them). Two cores or four cores, depends on what you do with the computer. Your software vendors won't go out of their way to tell you whether they make good use of quads. You could buy a quad, as "future proofing", mainly because it may not be that easy to tell when you're going to get a big boost from it. If you spend all day shrinking movies, then yes, it'll be a good purchase for you. I can probably "feel the difference" between running a Windows OS on a single core, versus a dual core. Feeling a difference between dual and quad core, is less likely. The main reason for buying a quad core, is if you believe eventually compilers will make better use of multiple cores. Buying one is a form of future proofing. Paul |
#4
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New Window 7 build
Paul wrote:
Ron wrote: For the first time in quite a while, I'm assembling a primary desktop strictly to run Win 7 Ultimate (32-bit). I acquired the OS when I was a Technet subscriber and hadn't worked with 64-bit systems much, so 32-bit was my first choice. After reflection, I may eventually go the 64-bit Win 7 Professional route, but that's not on the plate yet. Big snip I can probably "feel the difference" between running a Windows OS on a single core, versus a dual core. Feeling a difference between dual and quad core, is less likely. The main reason for buying a quad core, is if you believe eventually compilers will make better use of multiple cores. Buying one is a form of future proofing. Paul Many thanks for the heads up on CPUs. Since I already have the 32-bit OS and most of my familiar s/w is the same, I had a feeling I'd probably stay there. The CPU is another story. You've given me some excellent ways to make a reasoned decision, and I'll go through these later tonight. Ron |
#5
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New Window 7 build
Ron wrote:
Paul wrote: Ron wrote: For the first time in quite a while, I'm assembling a primary desktop strictly to run Win 7 Ultimate (32-bit). I acquired the OS when I was a Technet subscriber and hadn't worked with 64-bit systems much, so 32-bit was my first choice. After reflection, I may eventually go the 64-bit Win 7 Professional route, but that's not on the plate yet. Big snip I can probably "feel the difference" between running a Windows OS on a single core, versus a dual core. Feeling a difference between dual and quad core, is less likely. The main reason for buying a quad core, is if you believe eventually compilers will make better use of multiple cores. Buying one is a form of future proofing. Paul Many thanks for the heads up on CPUs. Since I already have the 32-bit OS and most of my familiar s/w is the same, I had a feeling I'd probably stay there. The CPU is another story. You've given me some excellent ways to make a reasoned decision, and I'll go through these later tonight. Ron Paul, I've read through everything you provided and found it easy to understand and follow. I believe I'll stay with the E8500 and not fret about 64-bit processing. I don't have any real plans for anything as intensive as video authoring, so the two cores should be fine. I may eventually upgrade from CS2 to CS(x), but as a semi-retired pro, I'm rarely under deadlines. Again, many thanks for the clear and thoughtful references you gave me. Now my only decisions include final conclusions about Win 7 Ultimate (which may be overkill). Even though I own this version of the OS, it came to me free as a Technet subscriber, so nuking it in favor of Win 7 Professional is an easy option. -best Ron |
#6
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New Window 7 build
"Ron" wrote in message news For the first time in quite a while, I'm assembling a primary desktop strictly to run Win 7 Ultimate (32-bit). I acquired the OS when I was a Technet subscriber and hadn't worked with 64-bit systems much, so 32-bit was my first choice. After reflection, I may eventually go the 64-bit Win 7 Professional route, but that's not on the plate yet. As it sits, I have the following major components: Gigabyte GA EP45-UD3P mobo (Intel P45 chip) Powercolor AX 3650 1GBD2-V2 Radeon HD 3650 1GB video card. Antec Sonata 2 case Sometime in the next few days, I'm getting these components: Intel Core2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale CPU WD Caviar WD1001FALS 1TB Sata drive 4Gb (2x2GB) G.Skill PC2 8500 sticks Here's my thought: Instead the Core Duo E8500, would it make sense to get the E8400 Quad core on the possibility of switching over to 64-bit Professional. I guess what I'm really asking is a) is it possible to run 64-bit Win 7 on the Core Duo without a serious performance hit? From the other direction, will the Quad core run efficiently with 32-bit Ultimate? This is going to be what i call a "6-year" machine. No significant upgrades, other than more memory with a 64-bit CPU, until it's time to build another primary. (I already have machines dedicated to audio, graphic, photo workflow, etc.) Any thoughts? All input appreciated as to the new build. I have found quad core to run significantly faster with Windows 7. W7 seems to have optimised the multiprocessor threads rather better than Vista or XP. Whether or not your applications will benefit is a rather more moot point. -- John |
#7
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New Window 7 build
Bioboffin wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message news For the first time in quite a while, I'm assembling a primary desktop strictly to run Win 7 Ultimate (32-bit). I acquired the OS when I was a Technet subscriber and hadn't worked with 64-bit systems much, so 32-bit was my first choice. After reflection, I may eventually go the 64-bit Win 7 Professional route, but that's not on the plate yet. As it sits, I have the following major components: Gigabyte GA EP45-UD3P mobo (Intel P45 chip) Powercolor AX 3650 1GBD2-V2 Radeon HD 3650 1GB video card. Antec Sonata 2 case Sometime in the next few days, I'm getting these components: Intel Core2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale CPU WD Caviar WD1001FALS 1TB Sata drive 4Gb (2x2GB) G.Skill PC2 8500 sticks Here's my thought: Instead the Core Duo E8500, would it make sense to get the E8400 Quad core on the possibility of switching over to 64-bit Professional. I guess what I'm really asking is a) is it possible to run 64-bit Win 7 on the Core Duo without a serious performance hit? From the other direction, will the Quad core run efficiently with 32-bit Ultimate? This is going to be what i call a "6-year" machine. No significant upgrades, other than more memory with a 64-bit CPU, until it's time to build another primary. (I already have machines dedicated to audio, graphic, photo workflow, etc.) Any thoughts? All input appreciated as to the new build. I have found quad core to run significantly faster with Windows 7. W7 seems to have optimised the multiprocessor threads rather better than Vista or XP. Whether or not your applications will benefit is a rather more moot point. I understand that one of the optimizations that exist in Vista or later, is better handling of NUMA. There is a cost associated with moving a process from Core1 to Core3, like cache coherency traffic (stuff in one L2 cache, needing to move to the other L2 cache, on a demand basis). A good OS design would realize moving from Core1 to Core2, costs less than moving something from Core1 to Core3. Intel Core2 Quad Two silicon die within IC package Core1 Core3 Core2 Core4 L2 L2 | | +----+----+ | | FSB (external) This article makes it sound like this was just invented for Windows 7, but I remember similar things being said when Vista came out, and how Vista was better in that regard than WinXP. http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/64plusLP Vista is mentioned here. http://developer.amd.com/pages/1162007106.aspx Paul |
#8
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New Window 7 build
Bioboffin wrote:
"Ron" wrote in message news For the first time in quite a while, I'm assembling a primary desktop strictly to run Win 7 Ultimate (32-bit). I acquired the OS when I was a Technet subscriber and hadn't worked with 64-bit systems much, so 32-bit was my first choice. After reflection, I may eventually go the 64-bit Win 7 Professional route, but that's not on the plate yet. As it sits, I have the following major components: Gigabyte GA EP45-UD3P mobo (Intel P45 chip) Powercolor AX 3650 1GBD2-V2 Radeon HD 3650 1GB video card. Antec Sonata 2 case Sometime in the next few days, I'm getting these components: Intel Core2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale CPU WD Caviar WD1001FALS 1TB Sata drive 4Gb (2x2GB) G.Skill PC2 8500 sticks Here's my thought: Instead the Core Duo E8500, would it make sense to get the E8400 Quad core on the possibility of switching over to 64-bit Professional. I guess what I'm really asking is a) is it possible to run 64-bit Win 7 on the Core Duo without a serious performance hit? From the other direction, will the Quad core run efficiently with 32-bit Ultimate? This is going to be what i call a "6-year" machine. No significant upgrades, other than more memory with a 64-bit CPU, until it's time to build another primary. (I already have machines dedicated to audio, graphic, photo workflow, etc.) Any thoughts? All input appreciated as to the new build. I have found quad core to run significantly faster with Windows 7. W7 seems to have optimised the multiprocessor threads rather better than Vista or XP. Whether or not your applications will benefit is a rather more moot point. That's been a part of the quandary. None of my current apps seem like they will run significantly better with four cores. Photoshop CS2 put the biggest demands on a P4 2.53Mhz 478 (2.5GB RAM) and it's always run very well. If I were more inclined to multi-tasking, four might help, but I can't see it at the moment. Fwiw, I'm not a gamer and don't do video authoring either! Thanks for the feedback. Ron |
#9
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New Window 7 build
Paul wrote:
Intel Virtualization Technology (VT-x) - this is important if you expect to be able to play with Windows 7 "WinXP Mode", which is a virtual copy of WinXP. An additional benefit of working virtualization, is a lot more virtual OSes may actually boot properly in a tool like VPC2007 (a problem I'm having right now). I got my Window 7 64-bit machine up now. I went to Fry's and bought a new motherboard for it, and it is actually a Gigabyte GA EP45-UD3P! No sense wasting a good XP copy that is legally married to my Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L. My upgrade copy can upgrade my Windows 2000 upgrade disk on which Microsoft basically screwed me out of a rebate (no rebate if you are upgrading an OEM NT install-- only mentioned on the *inside*). The x64 install didn't ask for previous media, anyway, and I installed it on a new empty drive. The Virtual XP mode is pretty slow. It uses the AHCI Uniprocessor PC HAL. I have given it 2GB of RAM. I just ran the SuperPi Mod 1.4 1M test, and my Q9550 @ 3.4 GHz (8.5 x 400) finished in a pedestrian 89 seconds. I'm not sure to which dinosaur that is equivalent, but I didn't realize that VMs were so slow. It turns out that there was a 64-bit driver for my 16-year-old Laserjet 4, after all. I haven't installed everything, but I've had a few glitches with my 32-bit software. The DVD-lab 1.33 demux.aux crashes after each MPEG-2 demultiplexing, but does not crash the main app, and the files created seem to be fine. This happens even if I set the compatibility mode of DVD-lab to XP. A minor annoyance. The microphone setup app for Battlefield 2 wouldn't run, either. I haven't searched for a solution yet. I actually hate the new Start Menu. I liked having organized folders on the top level Start Menu and now I have to settle for a toolbar on the Task Bar taking up space, but I can put other folders inside and they display as a cascading sub-menu. I see there are Start Menu replacements available that I may eventually adopt. I might just have been happier with Vista 64 with more XP-type options. I also hate the Search function. I was most happy with the one in Window 2000. I don't want to wait for it to search inside files in non-indexed locations unless I say so, and it's not convenient to continually alter the default behavior. I miss Outlook Express for news. It was just better than this Window Live Mail. What idiot decided to use an hardly readable typeface and make the *Author* field bold or not for unread or read messages instead of the Subject?! And no more "Block Sender?" I'm getting rid of that ASAP-- I will try Thunderbird first. If that is not to my liking, I guess I can always use OE in Virtual XP. Anyway, there's a bit of a learning curve, but I guess not so much for Vista users. I am enjoying all the memory I could reasonably afford to stuff in, though. |
#10
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New Window 7 build
Fishface wrote:
Paul wrote: Intel Virtualization Technology (VT-x) - this is important if you expect to be able to play with Windows 7 "WinXP Mode", which is a virtual copy of WinXP. An additional benefit of working virtualization, is a lot more virtual OSes may actually boot properly in a tool like VPC2007 (a problem I'm having right now). I got my Window 7 64-bit machine up now. I went to Fry's and bought a new motherboard for it, and it is actually a Gigabyte GA EP45-UD3P! No sense wasting a good XP copy that is legally married to my Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L. My upgrade copy can upgrade my Windows 2000 upgrade disk on which Microsoft basically screwed me out of a rebate (no rebate if you are upgrading an OEM NT install-- only mentioned on the *inside*). The x64 install didn't ask for previous media, anyway, and I installed it on a new empty drive. The Virtual XP mode is pretty slow. It uses the AHCI Uniprocessor PC HAL. I have given it 2GB of RAM. I just ran the SuperPi Mod 1.4 1M test, and my Q9550 @ 3.4 GHz (8.5 x 400) finished in a pedestrian 89 seconds. I'm not sure to which dinosaur that is equivalent, but I didn't realize that VMs were so slow. snip SuperPI 23.375 sec, 1 million digits, Core2 2.6GHz (native, in WinXP) SuperPI 24.986 sec, 1 million digits, same processor (WinXP running VPC2007, Win2K guest OS) My virtual results show hardly any slowdown at all. Paul |
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