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Cool quiet fast PC in hot dusty house - Comments and PSU advice needed



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 1st 04, 01:57 PM
Charlie King
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Default Cool quiet fast PC in hot dusty house - Comments and PSU advice needed

My current PC got far too hot last summer, and is due for replacement
anyway, so I'm planning on rebuilding.

I'm looking to achieve a sensibly quiet PC that will perform reliably
in a house that gets dusty (it's being restored), and hot (45 deg C
outside last summer, but rather cooler indoors)

I'll keep my case - it's a Chieftec Scorpio, and I'm happy with it,
but I'm replacing all the fans with Noiseblocker Ultra Silent Fan S4's
with BoogieBug anti-dust filters - two intake in the front, two
exhaust (not including PSU) at the back, and one intake in the side
that blows at the CPU.

The rest of the rig:

Motherboard ABIT AN7
CPU AMD Athlon XP3200+ Barton 400Mhz FSB
RAM Corsair XMS 512 Mo DDR PC3200
GPU Asus Radeon A9800XT-TVD /256
HDD's 2 x Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 - 160G - SAT
Heatsink Thermalright SP97 + Noiseblocker Ultra Silent Fan S4

(plus a LiteOn CDRW, and a Creative SB Live 5.1)

My first problem is the PSU - as has been mentioned here before,
finding good, in dependant reviews that cover noise and power output
for PSUs seems tricky.

So far I've narrowed it down to:

Enermax EG465AX-VE(G) FMA (460w 'Super Low Noise')
Zalman ZM400B-APS (400w)
Q-Technology SIL-Q400 (400 Watts - Double Papst Fan)

....but I need to be sure that there's enough good power for all the
kit above and that the noise level will be satisfyingly low.

Also, how noisy will the Radeon 9800XT be, and is there anything to be
done about that?

Finally, any general advice appreciated

Cheers


--
Charlie
  #2  
Old April 1st 04, 06:19 PM
jeffc
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"Charlie King" om wrote
in message ...
I'm looking to achieve a sensibly quiet PC that will perform reliably
in a house that gets dusty (it's being restored), and hot (45 deg C
outside last summer, but rather cooler indoors)

I'll keep my case - it's a Chieftec Scorpio, and I'm happy with it,
but I'm replacing all the fans with Noiseblocker Ultra Silent Fan S4's
with BoogieBug anti-dust filters - two intake in the front, two
exhaust (not including PSU) at the back, and one intake in the side
that blows at the CPU.


Not familiar with the case, but make sure you seal any cracks or air vent
holes anywhere but at the intakes you want. I might even leave off one of
the rear exhaust fans so that the internal pressure doesn't get too low. If
it does air will be sucked in every nook and cranny in your computer,
bypassing your filters, unless it's sealed airtight.


  #3  
Old April 1st 04, 11:16 PM
Wooducoodu
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the noiseblocker fans are not quiet, even the slower S2s make more noise
than a panaflo L1A. i'd use panaflo L1As or nexus real silent fans for the
case fans and maybe a panaflo M1BX for the CPU if you really need the extra
cfm.

the seasonic super silencer or enermax "noisetaker" are both good, quiet
PSUs and the most efficient currently available.

those little 40mm video card fans can be really annoying. take a look at the
sapphire 9800XT ultimate.

also, the samsung SP1614Cs are quieter than the seagate hard drives.

"Charlie King" om wrote
in message ...
My current PC got far too hot last summer, and is due for replacement
anyway, so I'm planning on rebuilding.

I'm looking to achieve a sensibly quiet PC that will perform reliably
in a house that gets dusty (it's being restored), and hot (45 deg C
outside last summer, but rather cooler indoors)

I'll keep my case - it's a Chieftec Scorpio, and I'm happy with it,
but I'm replacing all the fans with Noiseblocker Ultra Silent Fan S4's
with BoogieBug anti-dust filters - two intake in the front, two
exhaust (not including PSU) at the back, and one intake in the side
that blows at the CPU.

The rest of the rig:

Motherboard ABIT AN7
CPU AMD Athlon XP3200+ Barton 400Mhz FSB
RAM Corsair XMS 512 Mo DDR PC3200
GPU Asus Radeon A9800XT-TVD /256
HDD's 2 x Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 - 160G - SAT
Heatsink Thermalright SP97 + Noiseblocker Ultra Silent Fan S4

(plus a LiteOn CDRW, and a Creative SB Live 5.1)

My first problem is the PSU - as has been mentioned here before,
finding good, in dependant reviews that cover noise and power output
for PSUs seems tricky.

So far I've narrowed it down to:

Enermax EG465AX-VE(G) FMA (460w 'Super Low Noise')
Zalman ZM400B-APS (400w)
Q-Technology SIL-Q400 (400 Watts - Double Papst Fan)

...but I need to be sure that there's enough good power for all the
kit above and that the noise level will be satisfyingly low.

Also, how noisy will the Radeon 9800XT be, and is there anything to be
done about that?

Finally, any general advice appreciated

Cheers


--
Charlie



  #4  
Old April 1st 04, 11:29 PM
Isaac Kuo
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Charlie King om wrote in message ...

I'm looking to achieve a sensibly quiet PC that will perform reliably
in a house that gets dusty (it's being restored), and hot (45 deg C
outside last summer, but rather cooler indoors)


For an example of a serious homebrew case mod which combines
air filters with muffling, see:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article103-page1.html

I'll keep my case - it's a Chieftec Scorpio, and I'm happy with it,
but I'm replacing all the fans with Noiseblocker Ultra Silent Fan S4's
with BoogieBug anti-dust filters - two intake in the front, two
exhaust (not including PSU) at the back, and one intake in the side
that blows at the CPU.


With the increased air resistance of the filters, all those
fans will probably make quite a bit of noise in order to
acheive good airflow. I'd personally go with a more extreme
"box in box" air filter modification using a couple central
air conditioning air filters forming two side walls to a
large box within which the computer case resides. Air gets
sucked in one side and blown out the other:

BACK
_________
:
:___
| |
| | TOP VIEW
| |
| |
|___|
:
______:__

FRONT


A couple walls attached to the sides of the computer case
extend to the outer box walls to guide air through the
computer case. Here, the air filters have a huge cross
sectional area, so they won't introduce excessive air
resistance. Also, the large area will allow longer
periods of time between filter replacements.

The rest of the rig:


Motherboard ABIT AN7
CPU AMD Athlon XP3200+ Barton 400Mhz FSB
RAM Corsair XMS 512 Mo DDR PC3200
GPU Asus Radeon A9800XT-TVD /256
HDD's 2 x Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 - 160G - SAT
Heatsink Thermalright SP97 + Noiseblocker Ultra Silent Fan S4


(plus a LiteOn CDRW, and a Creative SB Live 5.1)


My first problem is the PSU - as has been mentioned here before,
finding good, in dependant reviews that cover noise and power output
for PSUs seems tricky.


The definitive place to go is:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/

These guys are the only ones I know of who even use testing
facilities suitable for measuring low noise levels. If
you look at the PSU reviews, you'll see all the data you
need and more regarding noise, voltages, efficiency,
and temperature performance.

The selection of reviewed power supplies is limited, but
I'd stick with one of them because that's really the only
way to know what you're getting.

So far I've narrowed it down to:


Enermax EG465AX-VE(G) FMA (460w 'Super Low Noise')
Zalman ZM400B-APS (400w)
Q-Technology SIL-Q400 (400 Watts - Double Papst Fan)


At silentpcreview, there are reviews of models similar
to those you've picked. There may be some important
differences, though.

...but I need to be sure that there's enough good power for all the
kit above and that the noise level will be satisfyingly low.


Also, how noisy will the Radeon 9800XT be, and is there anything to be
done about that?


There are a number of discussions about this on
silentpcreview's VGA forum. My personal solution would
be to get a fanless Radeon, but there are other cooling
options. Since your temperature environment is challenging,
perhaps Zalman's ZM80A heat pipe based cooler would be
good. It is fanless, but it has a huge surface area
thanks to its heat pipe routing heat to massive heat
sinks on both sides of the card. I use one to cool a
Pentium III 550 (not its original intended purpose).

Finally, any general advice appreciated


Since your environment is hot, you want lots and lots of
airflow for reliability. Sorry, but this is going to
mean noise. I'd personally ditch the existing case
side walls and front face, replacing the left wall with
a custom wall like this:

BACK
_________
:
:___
: .
: . TOP VIEW
: .
: .
:___.
:
__:______

FRONT

The custom left side wall extends all the way across the
filter box, and features 3 intake fans--each on blowing
straight onto a separate component. One fan blows onto
the CPU heatsink via a duct, one fan blows onto the GPU
heatsink (Zalman ZM80A), and one fan blows onto the
hard drives. All other fans are removed except for the
PSU fan. In this design, airflow is generally from the
left side to the right, although the motherboard is a
huge slab-like obstruction which air has to find its
way around. Removing the front and right sides of the
case will help give the air more ways to escape.

Note that the front openings have become exhausts with
this design, rather than intakes.

Isaac Kuo
  #5  
Old April 3rd 04, 11:23 AM
Charlie King
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Default

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:17:24 +0100, in

(alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt) "nightic"
wrote:

Motherboard ABIT AN7
CPU AMD Athlon XP3200+ Barton 400Mhz FSB
RAM Corsair XMS 512 Mo DDR PC3200
GPU Asus Radeon A9800XT-TVD /256
HDD's 2 x Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 - 160G - SAT
Heatsink Thermalright SP97 + Noiseblocker Ultra Silent Fan S4




Can't say that I'd recommend the SP-97 for a quiet cooling solution (having
owned one until quite recently).
While it is likely still the finest 'performance cooling' heatsink for
Socket A, it's design (tight fin structure) isn't sympathetic to low CFM
fans with a low output pressure.
IMHO for your needs the Zalman CPNS7000A-Cu would be a better bet.


I did think about the Zalman, but Zalman's site lists it as
incompatible with the motherboard.


--
Charlie
  #6  
Old April 4th 04, 05:01 PM
Charlie King
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:17:24 +0100, in
(uk.comp.homebuilt)
"nightic" wrote:

Motherboard ABIT AN7
CPU AMD Athlon XP3200+ Barton 400Mhz FSB
RAM Corsair XMS 512 Mo DDR PC3200
GPU Asus Radeon A9800XT-TVD /256
HDD's 2 x Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 - 160G - SAT
Heatsink Thermalright SP97 + Noiseblocker Ultra Silent Fan S4




Can't say that I'd recommend the SP-97 for a quiet cooling solution (having
owned one until quite recently).
While it is likely still the finest 'performance cooling' heatsink for
Socket A, it's design (tight fin structure) isn't sympathetic to low CFM
fans with a low output pressure.
IMHO for your needs the Zalman CPNS7000A-Cu would be a better bet.


Following your, and a couple of other folks', comments, I've started
thinking that I'd be better off with an Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe
motherboard, which would allow me to go with the Zalman CPNS7000A-Cu
fan, and save about 4 euros into the bargain

Any comments on the Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe?
--
Charlie
  #7  
Old April 4th 04, 10:47 PM
nightic
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"Charlie King" om wrote
in message ...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:17:24 +0100, in
(uk.comp.homebuilt)
"nightic" wrote:

Motherboard ABIT AN7
CPU AMD Athlon XP3200+ Barton 400Mhz FSB
RAM Corsair XMS 512 Mo DDR PC3200
GPU Asus Radeon A9800XT-TVD /256
HDD's 2 x Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 - 160G - SAT
Heatsink Thermalright SP97 + Noiseblocker Ultra Silent Fan S4




Can't say that I'd recommend the SP-97 for a quiet cooling solution

(having
owned one until quite recently).
While it is likely still the finest 'performance cooling' heatsink for
Socket A, it's design (tight fin structure) isn't sympathetic to low CFM
fans with a low output pressure.
IMHO for your needs the Zalman CPNS7000A-Cu would be a better bet.


Following your, and a couple of other folks', comments, I've started
thinking that I'd be better off with an Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe
motherboard, which would allow me to go with the Zalman CPNS7000A-Cu
fan, and save about 4 euros into the bargain

Any comments on the Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe?
--
Charlie




It's a good board, owned one myself a while back - fully featured though
really not for the overclocker.
My money would be on the DFI Ultra Infinity, especially if you plan on
overclocking.
This would still allow use of the Zalman and would save even more money.


  #8  
Old April 5th 04, 04:09 PM
jeffc
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"Isaac Kuo" wrote in message
om...
Charlie King om wrote

in message ...

I'm looking to achieve a sensibly quiet PC that will perform reliably
in a house that gets dusty (it's being restored), and hot (45 deg C
outside last summer, but rather cooler indoors)


For an example of a serious homebrew case mod which combines
air filters with muffling, see:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article103-page1.html


Umm, you lost me there. That filters the air LEAVING the PC. I don't get
it.


  #9  
Old April 5th 04, 07:42 PM
Dorothy Bradbury
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in a house that gets dusty (it's being restored)

So industrial environment - continual brick/wood/cement dust

(45 deg C outside last summer, but rather cooler indoors)


Ambient of 45oC is not fun to design for re lower delta-T between
the ambient air & the object to be cooled by air velocity over it.

Personally, I'd do the following:
o Wooden box to enclose any PC case
o Door with simple rebate & draught excluder
o A/C filter panel inset into door, 2" thick, cardboard frame, 5 Euros
---- ask for the resistance (Pa) v velocity (m/sec) at Free / 50% clogged
---- since resistance (Pa) rises with air velocity, you use a big filter
o Rear exhaust fan 150/172mm 12/24V rear fan run at 12/24V
---- want a Pa figure high enough to retain ok cfm at filter 50% clogged
o Foam airflow-bypass-preventer around the PC in the box
---- forcing exhaust fan to pull air out thro the case vs bypassing it

Static resistance v airflow v ambient is the problem here.
So perhaps use an entire side as filter area - eg, 18"x18", so you are
minimising static resistance, boosting airflow & allowing 1x 172mm fan.
Just requires a change in the location of the foam to prevent bypass.

You can't use normal low-profile tubeaxial fans in this application:
o You are using a filter + dusty environment
---- Filter resistance is in the 10s of Pa + clogging relatively quick
o Your ambient temperature is very high
---- so high airflow is required despite losses due to filtration
o Small 38mm-depth tubeaxial do a few 10's Pa at 0cfm
---- your filter will offer a few 10's Pa whilst maintaining 100cfm

Papst & Comair Rotron do 150/172mm fans that will suit, and
you can often find them at good prices on Ebay. You would have
quite a struggle - or noise - using 120x38mm fans to achieve same.

The bigger you can make the filtered intake, the longer it will take
to clog in a such a very dusty environment & easier to get high cfm.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy...ry/panaflo.htm (Direct)


  #10  
Old April 5th 04, 08:18 PM
Al Dykes
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Default

In article rMhcc.9352$4N3.7306@newsfe1-win,
Dorothy Bradbury wrote:
in a house that gets dusty (it's being restored)


So industrial environment - continual brick/wood/cement dust

(45 deg C outside last summer, but rather cooler indoors)


Ambient of 45oC is not fun to design for re lower delta-T between
the ambient air & the object to be cooled by air velocity over it.

Personally, I'd do the following:
o Wooden box to enclose any PC case
o Door with simple rebate & draught excluder
o A/C filter panel inset into door, 2" thick, cardboard frame, 5 Euros
---- ask for the resistance (Pa) v velocity (m/sec) at Free / 50% clogged
---- since resistance (Pa) rises with air velocity, you use a big filter
o Rear exhaust fan 150/172mm 12/24V rear fan run at 12/24V
---- want a Pa figure high enough to retain ok cfm at filter 50% clogged
o Foam airflow-bypass-preventer around the PC in the box
---- forcing exhaust fan to pull air out thro the case vs bypassing it

Static resistance v airflow v ambient is the problem here.
So perhaps use an entire side as filter area - eg, 18"x18", so you are
minimising static resistance, boosting airflow & allowing 1x 172mm fan.
Just requires a change in the location of the foam to prevent bypass.

You can't use normal low-profile tubeaxial fans in this application:
o You are using a filter + dusty environment
---- Filter resistance is in the 10s of Pa + clogging relatively quick
o Your ambient temperature is very high
---- so high airflow is required despite losses due to filtration
o Small 38mm-depth tubeaxial do a few 10's Pa at 0cfm
---- your filter will offer a few 10's Pa whilst maintaining 100cfm

Papst & Comair Rotron do 150/172mm fans that will suit, and
you can often find them at good prices on Ebay. You would have
quite a struggle - or noise - using 120x38mm fans to achieve same.

The bigger you can make the filtered intake, the longer it will take
to clog in a such a very dusty environment & easier to get high cfm.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy...ry/panaflo.htm (Direct)


Dorothy sounds like she knows what she's talking about. All I can add
is that you should set up overtemp alarms. Your ambient (45C) is so
close to the conservative MAX that you might fry the system as soon as
a fan fails.

I use these audio alarms that screem when heated to 110DegF;

http://www.pcpowercooling.com/produc...lert/index.htm

45C is 113F. On the first hot day, with a clogged filter the alarm
might save your machine. I like to put these gadgets next to my disk
drives. Most of the spec sheets for disk drives I've looked
at say disks like to be kept below 115F.

45C is hot enough that I'd consider running the CPU at a lower clock
speed, which make it run cooler. Maybe the same thing for the video
card and the bridge chips, if your mobo allows it.




--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m

 




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