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Esata enclosures vs. host comp's OS



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 13th 11, 02:13 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
John
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Posts: 161
Default Esata enclosures vs. host comp's OS

On 03/12/2011 07:47 PM, Ian D wrote:

"John" wrote in message
...
On 03/12/2011 04:11 PM, Paul wrote:
John wrote:
Looking at Esata enclosures for external backup. I don't understand
why they say that they are supported on say up to XP but not Win7 or
Linux?

See the following:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-167-_-Product



This one says Linux is supported assuming a new enough kernal but also
doesn't mention W7:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-179-_-Product



Why isn't W7 mentioned and in fact on one of the reviews at Newegg a
purchaser explicitly says that anything above XP isn't supported.

I mean, SATA is SATA, either the host comp's OS supports SATA or it
doesn't.

What is the deal here? Does the enclosure itself need an operating
system?

Thanks,
John

The components of ESATA a

1) SATA - OSes have had SATA drivers, or the ability to accept a
manufacturer's
SATA driver, for some time. Both Vista and Windows 7, have their own
generic drivers, or in some cases, you can install a driver for the
hardware.
If the OS is an old one, if the hardware has a "compatibility" mode,
you can still use your drive. So in fact, there are plenty of options
here. Even an IDE to SATA adapter, and a SATA to ESATA cable, might just
work.

2) Enhanced transmit and receive levels on the interfaces. This
allows 2 meter cables, instead of 1 meter cables. If you're having
trouble, switch to a shorter cable. This is seldom an issue, so I
include this point, as a means of distinguishing SATA from ESATA.
A tiny difference in electrical levels, so the cable could be made
longer and still work.

3) Hot swap. The driver for the chip doing the ESATA, needs hot swap
capability if you want the disk to be mounted the instant it is plugged
in. If, for any reason, hot swap is not working, you can plug in and
turn on the drive, before the OS boots, and then you can use it. So
a lack of hot swap is not the end of the world. Hot swap is available
with an AHCI driver, but if that is too hard to arrange when needed, you
can also ignore the requirement, and just plug in and start the ESATA
drive, before the OS starts to boot.

In the grand scheme of things, you have little to worry about. Maybe
if you
have really crappy cabling or adapter plates, it'll put up a fight.
If the
computer case comes with an ESATA port on the front, computer case
manufacturers
aren't exactly electrical engineering graduates, and they'll gladly put
defective
connection schemes on the front of your computer. This applies to those
$50 computer cases you buy off Newegg, to build a home computer with. If
you're buying a Dell/HP/Acer/Gateway or the like, they've probably
tested
the front connector at least once. It's only home builders that have to
worry.

With SATA cabling, it's not a good idea to bend the cable until it
becomes
kinked. Damaging the insulation, can upset the impedance of the cable.
A slight background error rate may result. If you have problems with a
SATA setup, a cable swap may fix it.

Paul



The case is a new Antec Sonata III 500, you and a few others helped me
select parts for a new XP build in late December, early January of
this year. The front mounted Esata port is connected internally
directly to a SATA block on the motherboard (no kinks ) so hopefully
the hardware is current enough to be satisfactory.

My OS if you check my sent from info is quickly becoming Linux Mint
(Julia 10, x686 64 bit). It's a refreshing change from Microsoft but a
steep learning curve.

Hot swapping is of no interest, the enclosure is strictly for back up
purposes. I have read (first hand user tests) that Esata is roughly 3X
faster than USB2 in the real world and the reason I am interested.

I value your opinion and ask: What do you think of the first selection
above? Any better suggestions?

Thanks,
John


For hot swapping, the RAID or AHCI driver for your MB
eSATA controller must be installed. Otherwise, if you
want to use the eSATA drive, it will need to be connected
before powering up the computer. I've found this to be the
case with Asus MBs using both JMicron and Marvell eSATA
controllers.



Now that I think about it, my workstation has a front mounted Esata port
that is directly connected to a SATA2-3 block on the Asus motherboard.
Why would any type of support (driver), other than native SATA included
with the OS, be needed?

John
  #12  
Old March 13th 11, 06:45 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,364
Default Esata enclosures vs. host comp's OS

John wrote:
On 03/12/2011 07:47 PM, Ian D wrote:

For hot swapping, the RAID or AHCI driver for your MB
eSATA controller must be installed. Otherwise, if you
want to use the eSATA drive, it will need to be connected
before powering up the computer. I've found this to be the
case with Asus MBs using both JMicron and Marvell eSATA
controllers.



Now that I think about it, my workstation has a front mounted Esata port
that is directly connected to a SATA2-3 block on the Asus motherboard.
Why would any type of support (driver), other than native SATA included
with the OS, be needed?

John


A basic driver for SATA, would support both SATA and ESATA. I doubt the
driver can tell the difference between them.

In Windows, the AHCI driver includes hot plug support. I don't know how
Linux chooses to handle hot plugging. Even if the hot-plug part doesn't
work, you'll probably still be able to manage to do backups anyway
(fire up the ESATA drive, then boot Linux).

With regard to the front mounted port, for the SATA to ESATA cable assembly,
it might be just a regular cable they got from some other company, plus
a mechanical setup to hold it in place. Maybe there is less chance of
something going wrong there. Since the seven signal SATA cable is four
pins of low amplitude data and three ground signals, there isn't the
same level of risk as USB or Firewire, which carry power as well. Swapping
a power and data signal, due to bad front wiring, can be an expensive
mistake.

The mistakes Antec made in the past, never included swapping data for power.
It generally involved mixing up data signals. Or in the case of a large
number of their front mounted USB ports, not making the assembly USB2
compatible, so a USB2 signal wouldn't go through it properly. At one time,
they would swap the little USB PCB for a working one, if you contacted their
support and asked for it. It took Antec a number of years, to figure out
that users liked working front panel stuff - I've never seen a company
so slow on the uptake.

Paul
  #13  
Old March 13th 11, 11:51 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Man-wai Chang
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Posts: 580
Default Esata enclosures vs. host comp's OS

How would I test it?

John replied.

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  #14  
Old March 13th 11, 05:24 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Ian D
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Posts: 333
Default Esata enclosures vs. host comp's OS


"Paul" wrote in message
...
John wrote:
On 03/12/2011 07:47 PM, Ian D wrote:

For hot swapping, the RAID or AHCI driver for your MB
eSATA controller must be installed. Otherwise, if you
want to use the eSATA drive, it will need to be connected
before powering up the computer. I've found this to be the
case with Asus MBs using both JMicron and Marvell eSATA
controllers.



Now that I think about it, my workstation has a front mounted Esata port
that is directly connected to a SATA2-3 block on the Asus motherboard.
Why would any type of support (driver), other than native SATA included
with the OS, be needed?

John


A basic driver for SATA, would support both SATA and ESATA. I doubt the
driver can tell the difference between them.

In Windows, the AHCI driver includes hot plug support. I don't know how
Linux chooses to handle hot plugging. Even if the hot-plug part doesn't
work, you'll probably still be able to manage to do backups anyway
(fire up the ESATA drive, then boot Linux).

With regard to the front mounted port, for the SATA to ESATA cable
assembly,
it might be just a regular cable they got from some other company, plus
a mechanical setup to hold it in place. Maybe there is less chance of
something going wrong there. Since the seven signal SATA cable is four
pins of low amplitude data and three ground signals, there isn't the
same level of risk as USB or Firewire, which carry power as well. Swapping
a power and data signal, due to bad front wiring, can be an expensive
mistake.

The mistakes Antec made in the past, never included swapping data for
power.
It generally involved mixing up data signals. Or in the case of a large
number of their front mounted USB ports, not making the assembly USB2
compatible, so a USB2 signal wouldn't go through it properly. At one time,
they would swap the little USB PCB for a working one, if you contacted
their
support and asked for it. It took Antec a number of years, to figure out
that users liked working front panel stuff - I've never seen a company
so slow on the uptake.

Paul


To their credit, Antec did respond to customer email requests
for USB2 compatible front connector/cable assemblies. I had
that issue with an Antec SX1040B case, and received a
replacement within a couple of days from my email request.
Removing the front panel was a real pain. You'd need to be an
octopus to press all the plastic snaps simultaneously. Before
reassembly, I snipped off a couple of redundant snaps.

  #15  
Old March 13th 11, 10:39 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,407
Default Esata enclosures vs. host comp's OS

On Mar 12, 8:26 pm, John wrote:
On 03/12/2011 01:35 PM, Ian D wrote:





"John" wrote in message
. ..
Looking at Esata enclosures for external backup. I don't understand
why they say that they are supported on say up to XP but not Win7 or
Linux?


See the following:


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...17145167&cm_re...


This one says Linux is supported assuming a new enough kernal but also
doesn't mention W7:


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...17182179&cm_re...


Why isn't W7 mentioned and in fact on one of the reviews at Newegg a
purchaser explicitly says that anything above XP isn't supported.


I mean, SATA is SATA, either the host comp's OS supports SATA or it
doesn't.


What is the deal here? Does the enclosure itself need an operating
system?


Thanks,
John


I have that Vantec enclosure. It works with Vista and Win 7. The
specs say XP and above, meaning Vista, and Win 7, and probably
even Win 8, when it's released. If your computer has an eSATA
connector, the Vantec is the better bet as it will be faster than USB.
The Rosewill is USB only. Also, eSATA is bootable, and the
connection from your computer to the drive is straight through,
without any intervening controller. The Vantec's internal controller
is for the USB to SATA conversion. That means it can use any OS
you motherboard supports, with the drive formatted accordingly.


If your computer doesn't have eSATA, but has unused internal
SATA connectors, you can get a cable to connect from SATA to
eSATA connectors on a back slot cover.


Then it shouldn't be a problem. Hot swap is of no interest and I have
read that Esata is in the range of 3X faster than USB2. The motherboard
in this comp supports USB3 but I haven't seen any USB3 hardware and
don't know if it would beat Esata 'in the real world'. So barring a
better price point I probably should go with the Vantec. The unit needs
to support both M$ and Linux for backups and possibly act as a transfer
unit from/to workstation/laptop in the near future.


USB3 -- I have. And often bloody bleeding-edge expensive, too. But,
USB3 is out there. Real world figures on USB2 tend to make me
cringe. I can get as low as 10kBPS on my oldest MB and 25kBPS on my
newest. HD to HD transfer rates typically would be along optimal
averages of 50-60kBPS on the same gear. Extrapolating 75kBPS on x3
USB3 seems more far fetched than 30kBPS, although I truly have no idea
what to expect. Other than when USB3 controllers and powered docking
stations reach USB2 pricing, I'll be game. eSATA is or can be more
involved in routing, power-on and drive assignment considerations than
a convenience present to USB2 offerings.
  #16  
Old March 19th 11, 06:12 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Nobody > (Revisited)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 154
Default Esata enclosures vs. host comp's OS

On 3/12/2011 11:22 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
John wrote:

Looking at Esata enclosures for external backup. I don't understand why
they say that they are supported on say up to XP but not Win7 or Linux?

See the following:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-167-_-Product


If you want to see the actual manufacturer's specifications on a product
then click in the "Manufacturer Product Page" link in Newegg's details
page. Notice what operating systems the *manufacturer* states for that
product.


Which can be totally wrong.

I've seen these specs can be bad on either the low-side or the high-side
on OS.

Sorry;
I'm going on generality stuff, not specific to YOUR hardware, but it's
always been a problem on both hardware and software.

In your case, it's probably just a case of 'update laziness' on (any
combo of) non-updated website, never tested on a later version, never
tried on anther OS, "scared of Linux", never did an in-house driver, etc.

Yes, it's possible that there's some hidden "thingie" that may cause a
hang-up on a specific OS or OS version, but that's rare.

ESATA is pretty much "generic" now. I'd say "go for it"

--
The black flies were coming.
(Alastair Mayer in "Small Penalties")
 




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