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#11
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advice on replacement computer
On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 11:52:30 -0400, Bob S
wrote: On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 10:42:23 -0400, Bob S wrote: Sorry, I omitted a vital detail: Is there a way to tell whether any given Optiplex system will run two monitors without an add-on card? If I need an add-on card, which is the quietest that will do the job? One monitor is 1680x1050 (a bit unusual) and the other is 1280 x 1024. Bob S All my Optiplex are really old (P4). If the came with an Onboard chipset.: 1 Monitor. If you add a Video card, you must disable the Onboard (Dell shipped those with caps on the VGA Jack). The card must support multi Monitors If you don't need Gamer type video speed, use a USB Graphics adapter. I have a 3rd (1024x768) Monitor on an Aluratek VGA adapter. (the 1024 is not an adapter limit) Do be advised, while the specs do say it will support up to 6 of these: They fail to mention that they must be the SAME Type. 1@ VGA an 1@ HDMI don't play together Changes may have happened since, so just a caution on Mixing I have even seen Windows XP BOOT screen on the USB monitor when I forgot to re cable the Main Video On another Note: IIRC HDMI and DVI use the same signals and all you need is a Adapter Cable I have driven my DVI TV from the HDMI port wit a simple cable There are also HDMI to VGA cables when your card has the Analog HDMI signal pins (I also use this with my second VGA monitor) |
#12
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advice on replacement computer
On Sat, 05 Jul 2014 11:15:20 +0100, Steve wrote:
On 04/07/2014 20:23, Bob S wrote: On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 17:56:56 -0700 (PDT), Ben Myers wrote: I have been wandering around the Dell web site, and have pulled out four systems to look at. I tried to get them more-or-less equivalent at 8 GB memory and 1 TB disk, but there are undoubtedly other differences buried in the configuration details. OPTIPLEX 3020: Core i5-4570 processor 3.2 GHz, H81 chipset, no media card reader, 1 external bay, 2 internal bays, VGA + 1 Display Port, 2 memory sockets, integrated graphics HD or HD 4600 with multi-display support, about $740 - $800 We have bought around 20 Optiplex 3020s recently (UK), costing around £400 each and they are good. Windows 8 Pro, downgraded to Win7 pro. They support dual monitors, no problem with the built in graphics card and they are very quiet. There's a case fan and obviously a CPU fan but you can't hear it normally. There's also a speaker inside the case, and good airflow. We went for the i5 processor w 4GB RAM and it runs our business apps well. I can recommend that model. We had some 3010s before these, they also supported dual monitors with the built in graphics card. Steve Thank you! How does the dual-monitor support work? Do you run one of the monitors as VGA, or is there some trick to spilt the single Display Port connection? Bob S |
#13
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advice on replacement computer
On 08/07/2014 02:20, Bob S wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jul 2014 11:15:20 +0100, Steve wrote: On 04/07/2014 20:23, Bob S wrote: On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 17:56:56 -0700 (PDT), Ben Myers wrote: I have been wandering around the Dell web site, and have pulled out four systems to look at. I tried to get them more-or-less equivalent at 8 GB memory and 1 TB disk, but there are undoubtedly other differences buried in the configuration details. OPTIPLEX 3020: Core i5-4570 processor 3.2 GHz, H81 chipset, no media card reader, 1 external bay, 2 internal bays, VGA + 1 Display Port, 2 memory sockets, integrated graphics HD or HD 4600 with multi-display support, about $740 - $800 We have bought around 20 Optiplex 3020s recently (UK), costing around £400 each and they are good. Windows 8 Pro, downgraded to Win7 pro. They support dual monitors, no problem with the built in graphics card and they are very quiet. There's a case fan and obviously a CPU fan but you can't hear it normally. There's also a speaker inside the case, and good airflow. We went for the i5 processor w 4GB RAM and it runs our business apps well. I can recommend that model. We had some 3010s before these, they also supported dual monitors with the built in graphics card. Steve Thank you! How does the dual-monitor support work? Do you run one of the monitors as VGA, or is there some trick to spilt the single Display Port connection? Bob S Hi, We use a display port to VGA converter and run one monitor from the display port and the other from the VGA port. Not to everyone's taste but fine for our systems. Hope that helps, Steve |
#14
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advice on replacement computer
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 20:06:55 -0400, Bob S wrote:
Another factoid that I have turned up is that Intel HD integrated graphics is supposed to be able to do two monitors. It will allegedly even do three if they are all the same resolution etc. It is not clear whether Dell will let it do two monitors. There is also the question that the only system that has two display port connections is the big Optiplex. The small Optiplex (which explicitly says "multi-display support") and the 8700 have one display port; I wonder whether that cable can be split or daisy-chained or something to support two monitors. In case anyone else is interested, my friend Mr. Google eventually revealed that there are two ways to run two display port monitors off one display port graphics interface. One way is to purchase at least one of the monitors with dual display port sockets and daisy chaining support. The other way is to purchase a display port splitter. This gadget costs about $75 - $90. Bob S |
#15
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advice on replacement computer
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 15:23:43 -0400, Bob S wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 17:56:56 -0700 (PDT), Ben Myers wrote: On Monday, June 30, 2014 8:44:45 PM UTC-4, Bob S wrote: I am currently using a Dell Dimension 8400 P4 Windows XP computer with 1GB RAM, two monitors, and 2 500G disks in RAID mirroring configuration (due to some previous bad experiences with disk drives). It is used for the ordinary mail and web and WORD stuff, plus occasional photo editing and small databases. There are no games more advanced than Free Cell. My major reason for replacing it is that I need more disk space (lots of photos). I have tried larger disks but the machine cannot take them; it looks like the "not enough address bits" issue. The fading-away of XP is also a consideration. The Dell web site has left me knowing only slightly more than when I started. It seems that I need a "mini-tower" box because none of the others hold more than one drive. I have been unable to get a clear picture of which lines use that box; some of the XPS systems do, and maybe some Inspiron, and maybe some things in the business side, but in each case some don't. Two drives are a requirement; I don't want to run out of disk again for a while. I have not found any mention of RAID; maybe Dell doesn't do that anymore? I have not found where it tells me whether any of the systems will run two monitors without an add-on card. If I need an add-on card, which is the quietest that will do the job? Another wish is that the system is not noisier than my current machine. Additional considerations include reasonable processing "power" for future-proofing without excessive cost; I had been guessing an i5 maybe. I long ago learned that more memory is good; how much is enough for the next several years? I am assuming that Windows 7 Pro is the right OS. So, what can you suggest, or what have I forgotten to mention? Bob S Windows 7 is one choice. But Windows 8.1 is the other, only if you install ClassicShell to get back a full-time Start button to replace the stupid tiles. Either way, the added features of a Pro version compared to a Home version are useful primarily in a corporate setting. The i5 is a decent middle-of-the-road processor useful for the kinds of things you do. I have numerous customers running i5 systems, desktop and laptop, and they are generally pleased with the computers. If the price is right, a low-end Xeon is OK, too. I am running one in this old system and it runs cool (no more than 110 degrees F), fast and quiet. Sold a few Xeon systems to folks, too. You might as well get at least 8GB of memory, which implies 64-bit Windows 7. Windows 8 is always 64 bits. The Optiplex line remains the high quality business class Dell product. Vostros and Inspirons are consumer products that sacrifice some in quality of chassis and overall workmanship, but they remain pretty decent from what I have seen. The Dell Precision computers are simply way over-priced. You can get mini- or mid-tower systems in all of them. They 8400 can be pretty noisy, so most any of these will be quieter, due to lower power consumption by the CPUs, hence less need for full-blast cooling... Ben Myers I have been wandering around the Dell web site, and have pulled out four systems to look at. I tried to get them more-or-less equivalent at 8 GB memory and 1 TB disk, but there are undoubtedly other differences buried in the configuration details. Inspiron 3000: Core i5-4460 processor "up to" 3.4 GHz, H81 chipset, media card reader, 2 external bays, 2 internal bays, VGA + HDMI, 2 memory sockets, integrated graphics might be HD or HD 4400 or HD 4600, about $550 OPTIPLEX 9020: Core i5-4570 processor 3.2 GHz, Q87 Express chipset, no media reader, 2 external bays, 2 internal bays, VGA + 2 Display Port, "up to" 4 memory sockets, integrated graphics HD 4600, about $830 with 500GB disk OPTIPLEX 3020: Core i5-4570 processor 3.2 GHz, H81 chipset, no media card reader, 1 external bay, 2 internal bays, VGA + 1 Display Port, 2 memory sockets, integrated graphics HD or HD 4600 with multi-display support, about $740 - $800 XPS 8700: Core i7-4790 processor "up to" 4 GHz, Z87 chipset, media card reader, (1 or 2?) external bays, 3 internal bays, No integrated graphics(?) it uses an add-on card, box is slightly larger probably because of plastic wrapping, 4 memory sockets, about $850 Apparently the H81 chipset is a "budget" version, the Q87 chipset is the top business version, and the Z87 chipset is the top home version. There are various complex descriptions of the differences, but other than the number of memory slots none of them looked important as far as I could tell. If XPS 8700 system really does not have integrated graphic I can probably discard that line. For someone who wanted gaming graphics rather than quiet graphics it looks like a pretty promising system. The small Inspiron is superficially quite a bit less expensive than the small Optiplex and doesn't have any obvious disadvantage. The advantages of the Optiplex 9020 must be subtle; they are not apparent from my undoubtedly ignorant reading of the specs. Please give me any corrections of my errors of fact or interpretation. Bob S My sometime friends Google and Wikipedia seems to say that the Intel H81 chipset does not have integrated graphics. The Dell Optiplex 3020 claims to use the H81 chipset and to have Intel HD 4600 integrated graphics. Interesting Bob S |
#16
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advice on replacement computer
On 7/9/2014 10:19 AM, Bob S wrote:
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 20:06:55 -0400, Bob S wrote: Another factoid that I have turned up is that Intel HD integrated graphics is supposed to be able to do two monitors. It will allegedly even do three if they are all the same resolution etc. It is not clear whether Dell will let it do two monitors. There is also the question that the only system that has two display port connections is the big Optiplex. The small Optiplex (which explicitly says "multi-display support") and the 8700 have one display port; I wonder whether that cable can be split or daisy-chained or something to support two monitors. In case anyone else is interested, my friend Mr. Google eventually revealed that there are two ways to run two display port monitors off one display port graphics interface. One way is to purchase at least one of the monitors with dual display port sockets and daisy chaining support. The other way is to purchase a display port splitter. This gadget costs about $75 - $90. Bob S I assume that the configurations using daisy chaining or port splitting display the same thing on two monitors, as distinct from dual monitor support that displays separate data to the two monitors. The former would duplicate the display whereas the latter can spread the desktop across two separate displays. Is that correct, or am I misunderstanding what you describe? Bill G |
#17
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advice on replacement computer
On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 22:13:12 -0400, Bill Ghrist wrote:
On 7/9/2014 10:19 AM, Bob S wrote: On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 20:06:55 -0400, Bob S wrote: Another factoid that I have turned up is that Intel HD integrated graphics is supposed to be able to do two monitors. It will allegedly even do three if they are all the same resolution etc. It is not clear whether Dell will let it do two monitors. There is also the question that the only system that has two display port connections is the big Optiplex. The small Optiplex (which explicitly says "multi-display support") and the 8700 have one display port; I wonder whether that cable can be split or daisy-chained or something to support two monitors. In case anyone else is interested, my friend Mr. Google eventually revealed that there are two ways to run two display port monitors off one display port graphics interface. One way is to purchase at least one of the monitors with dual display port sockets and daisy chaining support. The other way is to purchase a display port splitter. This gadget costs about $75 - $90. Bob S I assume that the configurations using daisy chaining or port splitting display the same thing on two monitors, as distinct from dual monitor support that displays separate data to the two monitors. The former would duplicate the display whereas the latter can spread the desktop across two separate displays. Is that correct, or am I misunderstanding what you describe? Bill G Well, it is new to me too, but from what I understand from reading, a single display port can carry up to four streams to different displays. I don't know how you tell the monitor which stream to listen to, but I assume it is in the setup somewhere. So supposedly with either a splitter or a daisy-chain you can have two distinct screens displayed if the graphics card support dual monitors. I don't have either of these things, so I cannot test my understanding. Bob S |
#18
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advice on replacement computer
I assume that the configurations using daisy chaining or port splitting display the same thing on two monitors, as distinct from dual monitor support that displays separate data to the two monitors. The former would duplicate the display whereas the latter can spread the desktop across two separate displays. Is that correct, or am I misunderstanding what you describe? Bill G Well, it is new to me too, but from what I understand from reading, a single display port can carry up to four streams to different displays. I don't know how you tell the monitor which stream to listen to, but I assume it is in the setup somewhere. So supposedly with either a splitter or a daisy-chain you can have two distinct screens displayed if the graphics card support dual monitors. I don't have either of these things, so I cannot test my understanding. Bob S OK, thanks for the clarification. I have dual monitors, but the graphics card has two ports. But that's in a six year old Precision T3400 with an nVidia Quatro FX 570 graphics card. Bill G |
#19
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advice on replacement computer
On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 20:44:45 -0400, Bob S wrote:
I am currently using a Dell Dimension 8400 P4 Windows XP computer with 1GB RAM, two monitors, and 2 500G disks in RAID mirroring configuration (due to some previous bad experiences with disk drives). It is used for the ordinary mail and web and WORD stuff, plus occasional photo editing and small databases. There are no games more advanced than Free Cell. My major reason for replacing it is that I need more disk space (lots of photos). I have tried larger disks but the machine cannot take them; it looks like the "not enough address bits" issue. The fading-away of XP is also a consideration. The Dell web site has left me knowing only slightly more than when I started. It seems that I need a "mini-tower" box because none of the others hold more than one drive. I have been unable to get a clear picture of which lines use that box; some of the XPS systems do, and maybe some Inspiron, and maybe some things in the business side, but in each case some don't. Two drives are a requirement; I don't want to run out of disk again for a while. I have not found any mention of RAID; maybe Dell doesn't do that anymore? I have not found where it tells me whether any of the systems will run two monitors without an add-on card. If I need an add-on card, which is the quietest that will do the job? Another wish is that the system is not noisier than my current machine. Additional considerations include reasonable processing "power" for future-proofing without excessive cost; I had been guessing an i5 maybe. I long ago learned that more memory is good; how much is enough for the next several years? I am assuming that Windows 7 Pro is the right OS. So, what can you suggest, or what have I forgotten to mention? Bob S I eventually ended up with an Optiplex 9020 and two monitors running Windows 7 upgradeable to 8. I got disks and used them as described in a post a couple notches down. The worst part of the job has been moving files across, which I had thought would be simple. The problem was that the old system crashed hard trying to read large files from C: to a USB disk or over the network. It crashed somewhat less often when I got the free space on the old disk up to a few GB; I don't know why free disk space would help reads... It did not crash at all reading files off the other partitions on the same physical drive. The new system does not seem much faster than the old system for most things. The clock speed has not increased much over the past ten years, and most jobs that I have tried do not know what to do with extra processor cores. The "improvements" in the visual interface from XP to 7 seem unnecessary. Is there a way to make dialog boxes just appear and vanish expeditiously rather than fading slowly in and out of existence? I now have almost everything working on the new system, except I still need a PAR2 program and a FLAC-WAV program. I am about ready to take down the old system; another one bites the dust. Bob S |
#20
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advice on replacement computer
On Saturday, August 9, 2014 5:50:14 PM UTC-4, Bob S wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 20:44:45 -0400, Bob S wrote: I am currently using a Dell Dimension 8400 P4 Windows XP computer with 1GB RAM, two monitors, and 2 500G disks in RAID mirroring configuration (due to some previous bad experiences with disk drives). It is used for the ordinary mail and web and WORD stuff, plus occasional photo editing and small databases. There are no games more advanced than Free Cell. My major reason for replacing it is that I need more disk space (lots of photos). I have tried larger disks but the machine cannot take them; it looks like the "not enough address bits" issue. The fading-away of XP is also a consideration. The Dell web site has left me knowing only slightly more than when I started. It seems that I need a "mini-tower" box because none of the others hold more than one drive. I have been unable to get a clear picture of which lines use that box; some of the XPS systems do, and maybe some Inspiron, and maybe some things in the business side, but in each case some don't. Two drives are a requirement; I don't want to run out of disk again for a while. I have not found any mention of RAID; maybe Dell doesn't do that anymore? I have not found where it tells me whether any of the systems will run two monitors without an add-on card. If I need an add-on card, which is the quietest that will do the job? Another wish is that the system is not noisier than my current machine. Additional considerations include reasonable processing "power" for future-proofing without excessive cost; I had been guessing an i5 maybe. I long ago learned that more memory is good; how much is enough for the next several years? I am assuming that Windows 7 Pro is the right OS. So, what can you suggest, or what have I forgotten to mention? Bob S I eventually ended up with an Optiplex 9020 and two monitors running Windows 7 upgradeable to 8. I got disks and used them as described in a post a couple notches down. The worst part of the job has been moving files across, which I had thought would be simple. The problem was that the old system crashed hard trying to read large files from C: to a USB disk or over the network. It crashed somewhat less often when I got the free space on the old disk up to a few GB; I don't know why free disk space would help reads... It did not crash at all reading files off the other partitions on the same physical drive. The new system does not seem much faster than the old system for most things. The clock speed has not increased much over the past ten years, and most jobs that I have tried do not know what to do with extra processor cores. The "improvements" in the visual interface from XP to 7 seem unnecessary. Is there a way to make dialog boxes just appear and vanish expeditiously rather than fading slowly in and out of existence? I now have almost everything working on the new system, except I still need a PAR2 program and a FLAC-WAV program. I am about ready to take down the old system; another one bites the dust. Bob S Bob, The simple statement is that Windows is horrific when it has to perform with resources consumed close to the limit. When a hard drive is 95% full, who knows what will happen? Literally. I have a customer still running a 10-year old Dimension 3000, upgraded a couple of years ago with a Dimension 4600 board (by me). It runs XP on an 80GB hard drive, and I get the call every few months to clean up the hard drive, because the system is being weird again. As for the user interface, so you don't think the semi-transparent Aero is all that great? Me neither. But it's there. You should be able to tinker with the Windows 7 display properties a bit to get rid of the stupid fade. Also, you can edit the properties of executables to get them to run without the brainless and insulting it-was-in-Vista-now-its-in-7 dialogic box that asks you if you really want to run a program. Except Microsoft's own pet programs just simply run. So do other programs whose authors do the install correctly, which leaves out a lot of them. Multi-core CPUs come in handy when your virus scanner kicks in or Window Update is running (again!) and you are trying to do real work. Intel capped CPU speeds at around 3.5GHz in the past, because faster speeds generated to much heat. At least you do not have the regular reminder any more every time you boot your XP system that the operating system is no longer supported... Ben Myers |
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