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Expert Advice Sought
To All Cognoscenti,
I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months ago. It's equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage. Shortly after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan built into the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the head honcho of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the fan as it was unneeded because today's drives operated at high temperatures without any harm. I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am I to argue with a technician, right? About a year ago our computer started seriously misbehaving. After much pulling of hair a disk scan revealed four files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP and our application programs. Lately major problems reared their ugly heads again. One problem was a badly seated memory card. The other, according to a disk scan with CHKDSK /R, dozens of files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing the data files. I don't know how many because the list scrolled off the screen. The computer sits on the floor in our living room and no jarring has ever occurred. Question one: is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk? Question two: is the disk toast? Expert advice from qualified technicians would be much appreciated. Andy |
#2
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Andy wrote
To All Cognoscenti, Soorree, not a wog. I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months ago. It's equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage. Shortly after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan built into the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the head honcho of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the fan as it was unneeded because today's drives operated at high temperatures without any harm. He's a fool/liar. I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am I to argue with a technician, right? You could have asked about that then. About a year ago our computer started seriously misbehaving. After much pulling of hair a disk scan revealed four files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP and our application programs. Lately major problems reared their ugly heads again. One problem was a badly seated memory card. The other, according to a disk scan with CHKDSK /R, dozens of files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing the data files. I don't know how many because the list scrolled off the screen. The computer sits on the floor in our living room and no jarring has ever occurred. Question one: is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk? Yes, very likely. See what temperature drive is actually running at with the SMART data using http://www.lavalys.com/products/over...?pid=1&lang=en Question two: is the disk toast? Probably, run Maxtor's PowerMax and see what it says. Expert advice from qualified technicians would be much appreciated. I'm still not a wog. |
#3
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Previously Andy wrote:
To All Cognoscenti, I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months ago. It's equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage. Shortly after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan built into the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the head honcho of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the fan as it was unneeded because today's drives operated at high temperatures without any harm. I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am I to argue with a technician, right? Well, besides shock, heat is still the number one HDD killer. Maxtor says 5C...55C with no impact on ARR (i.e. warranty claims) and up to 60C with "acceptable" impact, whatever that means. If you intend to operate your drives longer than the warranty period, staying well below the 55C most of the time and never exceeding it may be a good idea. About a year ago our computer started seriously misbehaving. After much pulling of hair a disk scan revealed four files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP and our application programs. Lately major problems reared their ugly heads again. One problem was a badly seated memory card. The other, according to a disk scan with CHKDSK /R, dozens of files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing the data files. I don't know how many because the list scrolled off the screen. Looks like a typical dying Maxtor disk. The nice thing about them is that the die gradually, i.e. when you observe the first warning signs (defect sectors that the disk could not hide, or better steadily growing reallocated sectors in the SMART values), most data is still intact and you can get it off. The computer sits on the floor in our living room and no jarring has ever occurred. Question one: is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk? Personal opinion: Yes. But there is a random chance factor involved, you may have just gotten unlucky or the disk might have been subject to excessive shock before it was mounted in the PC. Question two: is the disk toast? Most likely. When a modern disk cannot hide defects anymore that is a _very_ bad sign. Expert advice from qualified technicians would be much appreciated. Well, I don't qualify. However I have in excess of 50 HDDs currently running, most of them mounted myself and many Maxtors among them, so I have non-exoert experience. Arno |
#4
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Hello Rod,
Thank you for your prompt reply. "Rod Speed" wrote in message ... Andy wrote To All Cognoscenti, Soorree, not a wog. :-) I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months ago. It's equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage. Shortly after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan built into the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the head honcho of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the fan as it was unneeded because today's drives operated at high temperatures without any harm. He's a fool/liar. Auch! I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am I to argue with a technician, right? You could have asked about that then. You are abslutely right. My only excuse is my naivitee and trust in human nature. About a year ago our computer started seriously misbehaving. After much pulling of hair a disk scan revealed four files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP and our application programs. Lately major problems reared their ugly heads again. One problem was a badly seated memory card. The other, according to a disk scan with CHKDSK /R, dozens of files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing the data files. I don't know how many because the list scrolled off the screen. The computer sits on the floor in our living room and no jarring has ever occurred. Question one: is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk? Yes, very likely. See what temperature drive is actually running at with the SMART data using http://www.lavalys.com/products/over...?pid=1&lang=en Got it! Question two: is the disk toast? Probably, run Maxtor's PowerMax and see what it says. I've run PowerMax and it branded my HDD a failure. Expert advice from qualified technicians would be much appreciated. I'm still not a wog. OK :-) Thanks again. Regards, Andy |
#5
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Hello Arno,
Thank your for your prompt reply. "Arno Wagner" wrote in message ... Previously Andy wrote: To All Cognoscenti, I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months ago. It's equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage. Shortly after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan built into the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the head honcho of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the fan as it was unneeded because today's drives operated at high temperatures without any harm. I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am I to argue with a technician, right? Well, besides shock, heat is still the number one HDD killer. Maxtor says 5C...55C with no impact on ARR (i.e. warranty claims) and up to 60C with "acceptable" impact, whatever that means. If you intend to operate your drives longer than the warranty period, staying well below the 55C most of the time and never exceeding it may be a good idea. I certainly intend to operate my drives longer than the warranty period. The drive in question, when removed from the computer and still in its slide-out cage, is too hot to touch. It certainly exceeds the above heat values. About a year ago our computer started seriously misbehaving. After much pulling of hair a disk scan revealed four files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP and our application programs. Lately major problems reared their ugly heads again. One problem was a badly seated memory card. The other, according to a disk scan with CHKDSK /R, dozens of files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing the data files. I don't know how many because the list scrolled off the screen. Looks like a typical dying Maxtor disk. The nice thing about them is that the die gradually, i.e. when you observe the first warning signs (defect sectors that the disk could not hide, or better steadily growing reallocated sectors in the SMART values), most data is still intact and you can get it off. That's what happened in this case. The computer sits on the floor in our living room and no jarring has ever occurred. Question one: is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk? Personal opinion: Yes. But there is a random chance factor involved, you may have just gotten unlucky or the disk might have been subject to excessive shock before it was mounted in the PC. Question two: is the disk toast? Most likely. When a modern disk cannot hide defects anymore that is a _very_ bad sign. You are absolutely right. PowerMax branded my HDD a failure. Expert advice from qualified technicians would be much appreciated. Well, I don't qualify. However I have in excess of 50 HDDs currently running, most of them mounted myself and many Maxtors among them, so I have non-exoert experience. Arno Sincere thanks for you help. Regards, Andy |
#6
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Hello Arno,
"Arno Wagner" wrote in message ... Previously Andy wrote: Well, besides shock, heat is still the number one HDD killer. Maxtor says 5C...55C with no impact on ARR (i.e. warranty claims) and up to 60C with "acceptable" impact, whatever that means. If you intend to operate your drives longer than the warranty period, staying well below the 55C most of the time and never exceeding it may be a good idea. Would the above temperature values refer to the Current System Temperature (40 C in my case) as shown by the CMOS Setup Utility? Thanks in advance, Andy |
#7
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Andy wrote
Arno Wagner wrote Andy wrote Well, besides shock, heat is still the number one HDD killer. Maxtor says 5C...55C with no impact on ARR (i.e. warranty claims) and up to 60C with "acceptable" impact, whatever that means. If you intend to operate your drives longer than the warranty period, staying well below the 55C most of the time and never exceeding it may be a good idea. Would the above temperature values refer to the Current System Temperature (40 C in my case) as shown by the CMOS Setup Utility? Nope, you need to use the SMART temperature as displayed by Everest etc. |
#8
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Previously Andy wrote:
Hello Arno, "Arno Wagner" wrote in message ... Previously Andy wrote: Well, besides shock, heat is still the number one HDD killer. Maxtor says 5C...55C with no impact on ARR (i.e. warranty claims) and up to 60C with "acceptable" impact, whatever that means. If you intend to operate your drives longer than the warranty period, staying well below the 55C most of the time and never exceeding it may be a good idea. Would the above temperature values refer to the Current System Temperature (40 C in my case) as shown by the CMOS Setup Utility? No, the disk will definitely be warmer. The system temperature is sort of the mainboard temperature. Under Linux you can use hddtemp to find out about the disk temperature. Under Linux and Windows you can try the smartmontools, they list the temperature-field and usually get it right too. Arno |
#9
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Andy wrote:
To All Cognoscenti, I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months ago. It's equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage. Shortly after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan built into the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the head honcho of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the fan as it was unneeded because today's drives operated at high temperatures without any harm. I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am I to argue with a technician, right? First, the manufacturers of the drive trays sell them with no fans, one fan, two fans, and sometimes three fans. It's the same tray, what's different is the number of fans screwed into it. Most of the better ones also have an additional fan in the part that is screwed into the computer, and that fan is usually sufficient unless it fails. Might be worth looking into the bay with a flashlight to see if the fan is there and if it is turning. Next, never trust any technician at a computer store. One fellow I used to work for would say to any customer who brought in a dead machine, "It's the ROM". He said this with such confidence that even after fixing the machine and finding that the problem had nothing to do with any ROM it was difficult to not believe him. One day someone brought in a machine about an inch thick with a tire mark in the middle of it. This fellow said, with great confidence, "I see your problem--it's the ROM". The rest of us had to go out the back door so the customer wouldn't see us cracking up. Unfortunately he owned the store so there wasn't anything we could do about him except leave, which, eventually, we all did. As did his customers. About a year ago our computer started seriously misbehaving. After much pulling of hair a disk scan revealed four files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing Windows XP and our application programs. Lately major problems reared their ugly heads again. One problem was a badly seated memory card. The other, according to a disk scan with CHKDSK /R, dozens of files with bad clusters in the occupied areas of the partition containing the data files. I don't know how many because the list scrolled off the screen. The computer sits on the floor in our living room and no jarring has ever occurred. Question one: is the removal of the fan from the slide-out cage a likely contributing factor to the repeated and increasing failure of the disk? It was probably never there to begin with, but that aside if there is no other fan in the bay then yes, odds are that lack of cooling killed the drive. Question two: is the disk toast? From what you describe, yes, it almost certainly is. Expert advice from qualified technicians would be much appreciated. There's something called a "Tempilstik", which is a crayon that melts at a calibrated temperature. You might want to get a couple that melt at temperatures close to the recommended and absolute maximum ratings for your drive, and make marks where the manufacturer recommends that one check temperatures (this is usually but not always in the middle in back just above the connectors and whatnot). Check periodically and see if either mark has melted--you might want to make some marks on your dead drive and blow a hair drier on them so you can see what the unmelted and melted marks look like--the difference can be subtle. If it has melted then you know you've got a cooling problem. If you're near a major city call around to welding suppliers. If not, there's a good selection at Welding Depot http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/weldingdepot/scan/fi=products/st=db/sp=results/co=1/sf=category/se=Tempilstiks®/op=eq/nu=0/bs=1/ml=40/tf=description/to=x/se=1/sf=inactive/op=ne/sf=tax_category/se=1/op=eq/va=banner_text=/va=banner_image=.html?id=4k2b4cYf (If that link doesn't work try http://www.weldingdepot.com and type tempilstik in the search block) Andy -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#10
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Previously J. Clarke wrote:
Andy wrote: To All Cognoscenti, I had a desktop computer built for us by a local outfit 22 months ago. It's equipped with a Maxtor 6Y120PO hard drive in a slide-out cage. Shortly after taking delivery of the unit I discovered that the tiny fan built into the front of the slide-out cage was missing. An inquiry to the head honcho of the outfit produced the answer that they had removed the fan as it was unneeded because today's drives operated at high temperatures without any harm. I felt uneasy about the matter, but who am I to argue with a technician, right? First, the manufacturers of the drive trays sell them with no fans, one fan, two fans, and sometimes three fans. It's the same tray, what's different is the number of fans screwed into it. Most of the better ones also have an additional fan in the part that is screwed into the computer, and that fan is usually sufficient unless it fails. Might be worth looking into the bay with a flashlight to see if the fan is there and if it is turning. Next, never trust any technician at a computer store. One fellow I used to work for would say to any customer who brought in a dead machine, "It's the ROM". He said this with such confidence that even after fixing the machine and finding that the problem had nothing to do with any ROM it was difficult to not believe him. One day someone brought in a machine about an inch thick with a tire mark in the middle of it. This fellow said, with great confidence, "I see your problem--it's the ROM". The rest of us had to go out the back door so the customer wouldn't see us cracking up. Unfortunately he owned the store so there wasn't anything we could do about him except leave, which, eventually, we all did. As did his customers. Nice one! Illustrates well that in order to not get ripped off you still have to have some competence yourself. Not so different from cars. Arno |
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