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  #11  
Old October 23rd 20, 01:41 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
bad sector
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Posts: 32
Default press 4 to unlock core

On 2020-10-22 19:41, VanguardLH wrote:
bad sector wrote:

BIOS should come up by touching "Del" but it takes a dozen
attempts for that to work with my new usb gaming keyboard.


USB is a polled interface. PS/2 is an interrupt-driven interface. If
the computer gets super busy, the USB device may not get its chance at
the next polling interval, and why USB keyboards can lag in video games
compared to PS/2 keyboards. Just because a product says "gamer" in its
product name doesn't mean it really qualifies for that type of use.

Did the keyboard come with a USB-to-PS/2 adapter? If so, the keyboard
has the logic to switch between the different hardware protocols. If
your computer has a PS/2 port then I'd use that for the keyboard.
Gamers prefer PS/2 to USB because there is less delay or lag on
keypresses with PS/2, and PS/2 supports more concurrent keypresses than
USB. That's why some gamer mobos still come with a PS/2 port. Also, no
reason to toss the availability of a USB port if a PS/2 port is
available.

I found:

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards...pecifications/

where it mentions one PS/2 port (for keyboard). If your USB gaming
keyboard came with a PS/2 adapter then it supports both USB and PS/2
hardware protocols (internal logic has it switch between them). If the
keyboard did not include a PS/2 adapter, it is a USB-only keyboard. You
cannot simply plug a USB-only keyboard into a PS/2 adapter since the
USB-only keyboard doesn't support the PS/2 hardware protocol. You can
get an active hub that converts from USB to PS/2 to let you connect a
USB-only keyboard to a PS/2 port, but those are more costly than just
getting a USB+PS/2 or PS/2 keyboard.

It has been a long time since I've seen this, but some old BIOSes must
be configured in their settings to "Support legacy devices" which
includes the PS/2 ports. If you see that setting in the BIOS then
enable it should you decide to get a PS/2 keyboard or get a USB+PS/2
keyboard and use the USB-to-PS/2 adapter.

Which USB "gamer" keyboard do you have?


Thanks for the in-depth report. The keyboard is DURGOD all-usb
gaming one that cost me about 5 times a cheapo and I would
have been better off with the cheapo. I can duplicate the problem
at will and either it or the mobo is a lemmon. The problem seems
to be at its worse early in the boot, like when I would wanna hit
"Del" to get to the bios, or very soon after that to arrow-key my
way to a boot menu entry. The problem ceases to exist if I launch
with the cheapo and then optionally swap in the DURGOD. There is
NO BOUBT, for some reason the cheapo does not have a detection
issue the DURGOD does. It could be a matter of the latter needing
just a little more time to be detected, beats me

Anyway that's anoter part of the mystery down for a total of two




  #12  
Old October 23rd 20, 01:52 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
bad sector
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Posts: 32
Default press 4 to unlock core

On 2020-10-22 19:45, VanguardLH wrote:
bad sector wrote:

After I don't know how many reboots bios still wasn't detecting
but "fdisk -l" finally picked one of them up.


fdisk? I haven't see that available since the ancient MS/IBM-DOS days,
or in Linux. What OS are you running on this computer?


I'm just starting out with ssd's and gdisk after using fdisk like
for 30 years. It's more gdisk now, especially if I partition, but
for just the odd "fsdisk -l" I still forget myself at times

OS-wise its Suse Leap, Suse Tumbleweed, morphing over to
systemd-free Artix, Devuan and Slackware while on ocasion
runing w7 in a vBox on either of the above.

I'm not sure the OS is important since the problems you describe are
accessing the BIOS or its POST screen not listing all your devices. The
POST screen presents its findings before any OS gets loaded.

Do you even see the POST screen? Or is the BIOS configured to display
some ad banner, like "Hey, you're using ASUS"? I'd get rid of any ad
banner display during boot up, and have the BIOS show its POST screen.
The ad banner is worthless. The POST screen shows valuable information.


I can config the bios no problem, usually nix all the
useless eye-candy. My problems with the bios were
that "A" hitting 'Del' with the new keyboard was a waste
of time and "B" one of my drives was probably done for.

There's one question left here before being certain,
If you have a bad drive plugged into slot 3 that don't
get recognised, will that prevent a good drive in slot 4
from being recognised. This bit is a mystery, I was
getting that impression though. Now I'll never know
cause I coincidentally killed the 'bad' drive (see other
answer to Paul).

  #13  
Old October 23rd 20, 03:24 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 1,453
Default press 4 to unlock core

bad sector wrote:

The keyboard is DURGOD all-usb gaming one ...


https://www.newegg.com/Gaming-Keyboa...ID-198575-3523

That lists several models of Durgod. Since Newegg doesn't show a PS/2
filter for that list, looks like none of them can be moved to a PS/2
port on the computer.

They ship from China, not from Newegg (so you cannot choose Newegg as
the seller to deal with them for returns/refunds). Newegg estimates
shipping time from 10 to 32 days. Expect more like 45 days to get past
Chinese customs. Apparently the seller does not have regional
warehouses in which they stock their wares to have them on hand for
shipping in that region (and outside of China since they already went
through customs to the regional warehouses). They don't even need their
own warehouse. There are companies that provide warehousing service.
In fact, I think the City of Industry, CA is nothing but warehouses.
I've dealt with other sellers where some common city is used for
regional warehousing by multiple companies.

... that cost me about 5 times a cheapo and I would have been better
off with the cheapo. I can duplicate the problem at will and either
it or the mobo is a lemmon. The problem seems to be at its worse
early in the boot, like when I would wanna hit "Del" to get to the
bios, or very soon after that to arrow-key my way to a boot menu
entry. The problem ceases to exist if I launch with the cheapo and
then optionally swap in the DURGOD. There is NO BOUBT, for some
reason the cheapo does not have a detection issue the DURGOD does. It
could be a matter of the latter needing just a little more time to be
detected, beats me


When did you buy the gamer keyboard? Maybe it's short enough that you
can return it as nonfunctional (flaky on boot). Newegg often lists the
warranty on the products sold by or through them, but not for Durgod. I
went to durgod.com, but found nothing there about a warranty period.

When the mobo is booted, the CPU gets reset and also sends out a reset
to all the hardware. That is to initialize all hardware to a known good
state. When you cold boot (not warm boot) the computer, do the LEDs on
the keyboard blink to indicate it got the reset signal?

Presumably you have already tried a different USB port.

Try blasting canned air between the keys. Then turn over the keyboard
(so the keys are down), hold one end with one hand, and slap the other
end on the keys. Repeat with the other hand on the other end of the
turned-over keyboard to slap with your other hand. This is to shake out
any debris inside the keyboard which could prevent the keys from making
full strokes. For each key, press it slowly and release slowly. Make
sure each goes through a full stroke with no resistance other than the
mechanical latch that generates the click.

Since the cheap USB-only keyboard does not inflict you with the same
defects as the expensive USB-only gamer keyboard, well, you've narrowed
the problem source to the USB-only gamer keyboard. Go back to using the
cheap keyboard, and either return the gamer keyboard for a refund,
return it for warranty replacement, or use as an expensive doorstop.

cheap USB-only keyboard: no problem.
gamer USB-only keyboard: problem exists.

Problem resolved. The gamer keyboard is farked.
  #14  
Old October 23rd 20, 04:04 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
bad sector
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Posts: 32
Default press 4 to unlock core

On 2020-10-22 22:24, VanguardLH wrote:
bad sector wrote:

The keyboard is DURGOD all-usb gaming one ...


https://www.newegg.com/Gaming-Keyboa...ID-198575-3523

That lists several models of Durgod. Since Newegg doesn't show a PS/2
filter for that list, looks like none of them can be moved to a PS/2
port on the computer.


It's a Durgod Taurus k-320 (made in China), and
the reason I got it was that

- my old one broke a support
- I was up to here with num locks being ON by default
so I wanted a keyboard with NO numpad

It's a *good heavy mechanical* keyboard but
something in it makes it slow to be recognised.

As I said it's a problem ONLY in the very early
stages of boot, and

*I just realise now what that means*

...it's slow ONLY before the OS ignores the BIOS
and takes over, but then it's slow to the point of
sometimes being dead.

I bought it at amazon, thing is that living out
in the sticks sending anything back involves
prohibitive shipping costs, nor do I really wanna
get riod of it ALTHOUGH the next one might be
a Ps2, or I might try it with a generic Ps2 adapter?

When the mobo is booted, the CPU gets reset and also sends out a reset
to all the hardware. That is to initialize all hardware to a known good
state. When you cold boot (not warm boot) the computer, do the LEDs on
the keyboard blink to indicate it got the reset signal?

Presumably you have already tried a different USB port.


I've seen the led's flash, and yeh, I tried different usb
ports a trick which BTW works when for example
keys have no effect when a boot menu shows up (that
too is before OS takeover BTW). When that happens I
can change port or just reseat in the same port for
it to get picked up. Problem is I cannot do that fast
enough to get 'Del' in for a BIOS edit

cheap USB-only keyboard: no problem.
gamer USB-only keyboard: problem exists.

Problem resolved. The gamer keyboard is farked.


Well, it _is_ a problem during early boot, the rest
of the problem is still waiting.







  #15  
Old October 23rd 20, 08:06 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default press 4 to unlock core

bad sector wrote:

It's a Durgod Taurus k-320 (made in China), and the reason I got it
was that ...
... I was up to here with num locks being ON by default so I wanted a
keyboard with NO numpad


Your BIOS might have settings for the default state of the keyboard on
boot. My BIOS (well, UEFI) has:

Bootup Num-Lock

Select whether Num Lock should be turned on or off when the system
boots up.

You should check if there is a similar setting in your BIOS. I went to:

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards...IR_IV_FORMULA/

to see if an online copy of that mobo's manual was available, so I could
see if it mentioned a NumLock setting in the BIOS. Yep, that mobo's
BIOS has a NumLock setting, so you could configure the keyboard to have
its NumLock status either on or off on boot.

As I said it's a problem ONLY in the very early stages of boot, and

*I just realise now what that means*

..it's slow ONLY before the OS ignores the BIOS
and takes over, but then it's slow to the point of
sometimes being dead.


Got me confused. It's slow before the OS loads ("before the OS ignores
the BIOS") and it's slow when the OS loads ("then it's slow"). Up to
when the POST screen shows, the BIOS is in charge. It then locates the
boot sector in the active-marked partition on the drive, loads the
bootstrap code in that boot sector into memory, and passes control to
that bootstrap code (for the OS).

So, up to when the POST screen appears (and when the BIOS is in charge),
is the keyboard slow? Or is it after the POST screen disappears (when
the BIOS loads the OS' bootstrap code and passes control to it) when the
gamer keyboard gets slow?

durgod.com does list a driver for that gamer keyboard. Did you install
it? See https://www.durgod.com/Durgod-Zeus-Engine?_l=en. The manual
and software downloads are there. Seems they use the same ones for all
their keyboards.

Since it is a USB device, there is handshaking between the OS and the
device when the device sends its presentation data to the OS which
identifies the device's type. That presentation data gets stored in the
registry under the Enumeration key. If the enumeration data gets
corrupted, the OS doesn't know what is the device type. Cleaning out
the enumeration data and forcing a new copy to get stored in the
registry is easy for some but tricky to most. I've had to do it when a
USB device's enumeration data did not match on the USB device after its
firmware got updated. The enumeration data mismatch or corruption is
why some techs' canned response is to move the USB device to a different
USB port, but that won't delete the enumeration data for the original
port should you plug the device back into the prior USB port. No point
in getting into erasing the old enumeration data and getting new
presentation data stored in the registry if the keyboard is only slow
BEFORE the OS loads (i.e., after the POST screen disappears).

I bought it at amazon, thing is that living out in the sticks sending
anything back involves prohibitive shipping costs,


I usually ask the seller if they're willing to do a warranty exchange.
I buy a new unit, and they send that to me. When I get it, I reuse the
packaging to ship back the old defective unit. When they receive it,
they refund my purchase (the 2nd one for the same unit). I've even ran
across several companies that will include a pre-paid label you stick on
the return package, so you don't even have to pay for the return
shipping. The defective unit might still be usable, so a warranty
exchange lets me keep using the defective unit, I slide in the
replacement when it arrives, and I don't lose use of the unit except the
short time to make the switch.

the next one might be a Ps2, or I might try it with a generic Ps2
adapter?


A USB-to-PS/2 adapter is of no use unless the keyboard itself support
BOTH the USB and PS/2 hardware protocols. They keyboard will
automatically switch to match the hardware protocol of the port to which
you connect the keyboard. Make sure the next one actually says it
supports *both* USB and PS/2. The hardware protocol switch requires
active logic, not just passive rewiring within an adapter.

cheap USB-only keyboard: no problem.
gamer USB-only keyboard: problem exists.

Problem resolved. The gamer keyboard is farked.


Well, it _is_ a problem during early boot, the rest of the problem is
still waiting.


If slow up to the POST, and beyond into when the OS loads, then it
sounds like the gamer keyboard is defective. You can either suffer with
it (type on a turd), return for warranty replacement (or return for
refund if within the seller's refund policy period), or use something
else that works reliably. Your choice.

A search at amazon.com on "Durgod Taurus k-320" shows that keyboard can
be bought for $100. It's up to you if you want to invest another $20
USD to ship it back for a warranty return or refund, and hope the
problem isn't intrinsic to the design of that product which has you
afflicted with the same problem with the warranty replacement. That's
why I'd first check if the seller will do a refund, and then get
something else and cheaper. I do like mechanical keyboards, and they
are more expensive than the cheap rubber dome keyboards. However, if I
were to go to the expensive of a "gamer" mechanical keyboard, I'd get
one that connects to PS/2. That criteria excludes ALL of the Durgod
keyboards.

Personally I find the filtering at Amazon sucks, and why I rarely shop
there unless I already know exactly what I want and can search on that
string. You can't use it to narrow the search to what you want. "PC
gaming keyboard" is NOT the same as getting to a keyboard category and
then filtering by mechanical key. Hell, you can't even filter by USB,
USB-only, USB+PS/2, or PS/2. Best you can do at Amazon is start from
the top and use a search of "PS2 keyboard mechanical key color
gaming", and in the search results pick the Brand filter to match on
brands that I've heard of and perhaps have used before or based on
reviews that I've read before purchasing.
  #16  
Old October 23rd 20, 08:17 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default press 4 to unlock core

bad sector wrote:

I post a problem and thanks to many good souls trying to help soon
find myself being the only indian with 20 chiefs dancing around me
gettin' me dizzy and more confused than ever before


Reminds of a movie where the crew was 3 generals and 1 corporal. The
generals issued some order, and the corporal said, "I knew it. I'm
going home in a body bag." So, have you yet heard the sound of a zipper
closing?
  #17  
Old October 23rd 20, 01:06 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
bad sector
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default press 4 to unlock core

On 2020-10-23 03:06, VanguardLH wrote:
bad sector wrote:

It's a Durgod Taurus k-320 (made in China), and the reason I got it
was that ...
... I was up to here with num locks being ON by default so I wanted a
keyboard with NO numpad


Your BIOS might have settings for the default state of the keyboard on
boot. My BIOS (well, UEFI) has:

Bootup Num-Lock

Select whether Num Lock should be turned on or off when the system
boots up.

You should check if there is a similar setting in your BIOS. I went to:

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards...IR_IV_FORMULA/

to see if an online copy of that mobo's manual was available, so I could
see if it mentioned a NumLock setting in the BIOS. Yep, that mobo's
BIOS has a NumLock setting, so you could configure the keyboard to have
its NumLock status either on or off on boot.

As I said it's a problem ONLY in the very early stages of boot, and

*I just realise now what that means*

..it's slow ONLY before the OS ignores the BIOS
and takes over, but then it's slow to the point of
sometimes being dead.


Got me confused. It's slow before the OS loads ("before the OS ignores
the BIOS") and it's slow when the OS loads ("then it's slow"). Up to
when the POST screen shows, the BIOS is in charge. It then locates the
boot sector in the active-marked partition on the drive, loads the
bootstrap code in that boot sector into memory, and passes control to
that bootstrap code (for the OS).

So, up to when the POST screen appears (and when the BIOS is in charge),
is the keyboard slow? Or is it after the POST screen disappears (when
the BIOS loads the OS' bootstrap code and passes control to it) when the
gamer keyboard gets slow?

durgod.com does list a driver for that gamer keyboard. Did you install
it? See https://www.durgod.com/Durgod-Zeus-Engine?_l=en. The manual
and software downloads are there. Seems they use the same ones for all
their keyboards.


I use Linux only but even with windows a driver
wouldn't do diddley before the OS loads.

Since it is a USB device, there is handshaking between the OS and the
device when the device sends its presentation data to the OS which
identifies the device's type. That presentation data gets stored in the
registry under the Enumeration key. If the enumeration data gets
corrupted, the OS doesn't know what is the device type. Cleaning out
the enumeration data and forcing a new copy to get stored in the
registry is easy for some but tricky to most. I've had to do it when a
USB device's enumeration data did not match on the USB device after its
firmware got updated. The enumeration data mismatch or corruption is
why some techs' canned response is to move the USB device to a different
USB port, but that won't delete the enumeration data for the original
port should you plug the device back into the prior USB port. No point
in getting into erasing the old enumeration data and getting new
presentation data stored in the registry if the keyboard is only slow
BEFORE the OS loads (i.e., after the POST screen disappears).


But plugging it into another USB port DOES usually fix the
problem when for example a boot promt is waiting for a
response and I hav the time to do so. In contrast there isn't
time to do so to get to the BIOS because you don't find out
that 'Del' had no effect until it's too late. And this 'changing of
usb port' during BIOS (as a solution) is another aspect of the
thing that totally throws me....

A USB-to-PS/2 adapter is of no use unless the keyboard itself support
BOTH the USB and PS/2 hardware protocols. They keyboard will
automatically switch to match the hardware protocol of the port to which
you connect the keyboard. Make sure the next one actually says it
supports *both* USB and PS/2. The hardware protocol switch requires
active logic, not just passive rewiring within an adapter.


Thanks, lesson learned

cheap USB-only keyboard: no problem.
gamer USB-only keyboard: problem exists.

Problem resolved. The gamer keyboard is farked.


Well, it _is_ a problem during early boot, the rest of the problem is
still waiting.


If slow up to the POST, and beyond into when the OS loads, then it
sounds like the gamer keyboard is defective. You can either suffer with
it (type on a turd), return for warranty replacement (or return for
refund if within the seller's refund policy period), or use something
else that works reliably. Your choice.


The return expired in August, a month after I bought it

A search at amazon.com on "Durgod Taurus k-320" shows that keyboard can
be bought for $100. It's up to you if you want to invest another $20
USD to ship it back for a warranty return or refund, and hope the
problem isn't intrinsic to the design of that product which has you
afflicted with the same problem with the warranty replacement. That's
why I'd first check if the seller will do a refund, and then get
something else and cheaper. I do like mechanical keyboards, and they
are more expensive than the cheap rubber dome keyboards. However, if I
were to go to the expensive of a "gamer" mechanical keyboard, I'd get
one that connects to PS/2. That criteria excludes ALL of the Durgod
keyboards.


Any specific suggestions (no numpad)?

Personally I find the filtering at Amazon sucks, and why I rarely shop
there unless I already know exactly what I want and can search on that
string. You can't use it to narrow the search to what you want. "PC
gaming keyboard" is NOT the same as getting to a keyboard category and
then filtering by mechanical key. Hell, you can't even filter by USB,
USB-only, USB+PS/2, or PS/2. Best you can do at Amazon is start from
the top and use a search of "PS2 keyboard mechanical key color
gaming", and in the search results pick the Brand filter to match on
brands that I've heard of and perhaps have used before or based on
reviews that I've read before purchasing.


I tend to agree

  #18  
Old October 23rd 20, 01:24 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
bad sector
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default press 4 to unlock core

On 2020-10-23 03:06, VanguardLH wrote:
bad sector wrote:

It's a Durgod Taurus k-320 (made in China), and the reason I got it
was that ...
... I was up to here with num locks being ON by default so I wanted a
keyboard with NO numpad


Your BIOS might have settings for the default state of the keyboard on
boot. My BIOS (well, UEFI) has:

Bootup Num-Lock

Select whether Num Lock should be turned on or off when the system
boots up.


I can do that, but my issue was with the fact that it's
ON by default so every time I load BIOS defaults it's
there again. I suspect that 90% of users not only
never use it, they don't even know what it is so
why is it a default?

As I said it's a problem ONLY in the very early stages of boot, and

*I just realise now what that means*

..it's slow ONLY before the OS ignores the BIOS
and takes over, but then it's slow to the point of
sometimes being dead.


Got me confused. It's slow before the OS loads ("before the OS ignores
the BIOS") and it's slow when the OS loads ("then it's slow").


Sory that was badly written at two levels: I used
the word SLOW because it appeared to be slow,
it's actually either working or DEAD before the OS
loads, very hard to put a number on it like
how many times out of 10. Hitting 'Del' to get
to the BIOS edit seems to be dead most of the
time. But, when it is dead and I realize that when
I become unable to select from a boot menu with
the arrow keys then plugging into another usb
port almost always fixes the problem. At this point
the system is past BIOS and in grub's undrworld.
This same trick could maybe work too the get to
the bios to edit iot but the opportunity is missing
at that point.

Up to when the POST screen shows, the BIOS is in charge. It then
locates the boot sector in the active-marked partition on the drive,
loads the bootstrap code in that boot sector into memory, and passes
control to that bootstrap code (for the OS).


I'm not knowlegable enough to distinguish between
before and after post, and I don't know if the boot
code (strictly grub2) deals at all with usb.

  #19  
Old October 23rd 20, 01:39 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
bad sector
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default press 4 to unlock core

On 2020-10-23 03:17, VanguardLH wrote:
bad sector wrote:

I post a problem and thanks to many good souls trying to help soon
find myself being the only indian with 20 chiefs dancing around me
gettin' me dizzy and more confused than ever before


Reminds of a movie where the crew was 3 generals and 1 corporal. The
generals issued some order, and the corporal said, "I knew it. I'm
going home in a body bag." So, have you yet heard the sound of a zipper
closing?


only last night but i really don't wanna get into
politics, especially not being an American, ours
here is but to ack what folks to the south decide
for themselves

usenet is a threading utility so it's very easy to
quickly build a full and very lush tree that's near
impossible to untangle. What I do sometimes
is answer to myself with a heads up and that kinda
redirects several responses into one but it's not
easy to think of such technique when your desktop
deathstar in on the floor in pieces and is dead alright
but no shining star )))


  #20  
Old October 23rd 20, 06:30 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default press 4 to unlock core

bad sector wrote:

I can do that [set NumLock state on boot in the BIOS], but my issue
was with the fact that it's ON by default so every time I load BIOS
defaults it's there again. I suspect that 90% of users not only never
use it, they don't even know what it is so why is it a default?


Because the vast majority of users don't use compact keyboards (no
numpad). They aren't going to use a default for the rare few. For the
majority, they don't want the numpad duplicating the keypresses from the
arrowpad. Why have 2 keys for Up, 2 keys for Down, 2 keys for Home, and
so on? Most users have an arrowpad and a numpad, and they want them to
default to those behaviors. Numlock off by default on boot means the
numpad becomes another arrowpad.

I'm not knowlegable enough to distinguish between
before and after post, and I don't know if the boot
code (strictly grub2) deals at all with usb.


Unless configured to show an ad banner (usually showing the brand name)
which obliterates the POST screen, the POST screen shows information and
detected devices, waits 1-3 seconds (sometimes this is configurable),
and then loads the OS bootstrap code into memory and passes control to
it. When the POST screen disappears, you're into the OS load phase.
 




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