saw off number pad to narrow the KB?

I have a 12-year old Dell Natural keyboard
(probably a Microsoft clone) which I really
like but which I'd like to narrow so my MS
trackball mouse can be closer to the text keys.

Since I *never* use the number pad, I've thought
that I'd just saw it off if I could. Does anyone
here know what wiring repairs would have to be
done to make the KB work if I just sawed off
the number pad?

*TimDaniels*

On Dec 12, 8:01 pm, "Timothy Daniels" wrote:
I have a 12-year old Dell Natural keyboard
(probably a Microsoft clone) which I really
like but which I'd like to narrow so my MS
trackball mouse can be closer to the text keys.

Since I *never* use the number pad, I've thought
that I'd just saw it off if I could. Does anyone
here know what wiring repairs would have to be
done to make the KB work if I just sawed off
the number pad?

*TimDaniels*

They[re interesting once taken apart, like a rudimentary printed
circuit board projects found freely published on various electronic
hobbyist websites, except the foundation and PCB has only one sort of
possible current state across a maze to trace. One look at it and
you'd intuitively know the answer is yes provided the integrity of the
maze remains neither short circuited or left open with nowhere for
current to run.

Timothy Daniels wrote:

I have a 12-year old Dell Natural keyboard
(probably a Microsoft clone) which I really
like but which I'd like to narrow so my MS
trackball mouse can be closer to the text keys.

Since I *never* use the number pad, I've thought
that I'd just saw it off if I could. Does anyone
here know what wiring repairs would have to be
done to make the KB work if I just sawed off
the number pad?

Learn to use the mouse with your left hand. Keyboards are lop-sided on
the right side to accomodate both the arrow and number keypads. That
means, with a keyboard properly positioned in front of you so the "home"
keys are centered in front of you, a mouse will be off the right.
Instead of your arm positioned straight out from your side that it has
to angle outward. When you relax your arms, are they at your sides or
extended outwards? There are no extra keypads on the left side of the
keyboard so a mouse on the left side means your mousing arm will be
positioned more comfortably.

You may be right-handed but which arm do you use to control your car's
steering wheel? Your right hand has other duties, like moving the shift
lever, operating the radio, moving the mirror, whacking the kids in the
back seat. I'm right-handed but I use the mouse on the left side
because my arm gets to be straight alongside instead of angled outward.
I'm a fast touch-typist so the keyboard has to be properly positioned in
front of me and not pushed off the left to make room for a mouse on the
right. Being right-handed doesn't mean you cannot use your left hand.

If you have to share your computer, like at work or with family, then
get a wireless mouse and they can use it on whatever side they like.
However, when moved to the left side, you'll want to switch the primary
and alternate buttons on the mouse. Your index finger is much more
desirable as the primary mouse clicking finger. You're third finger is
much less flexible but okay for the far less number of clicking done
with the alternate mouse button. That means if you have users switching
the mouse between left and right sides of the keyboard that most likely
they will need to go into the Mouse applet to switch the mouse buttons.

Alternatively, you could get a mini-keyboard without the arrow and
numeric keypads. All the number keypad are duplicates. To have the
arrow, insert, delete, home, end, page up/down keys means having to
overlay them atop the character keys and that means having to use a
toggle key to switch between the character and arrowpad keys on the same
shared set of keys, like what laptops do.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...=mini+keyboard

Due to the electronics involved in signal traces on the PCB, you can't
just saw off the keypads from a keyboard. Either learn to use the mouse
on the left side of the keyboard or get a mini-keyboard to use the mouse
on the right side without having to angle out to use the mouse.

"VanguardLH" wrote:
Due to the electronics involved in signal traces on the PCB, you can't
just saw off the keypads from a keyboard. Either learn to use the mouse
on the left side of the keyboard or get a mini-keyboard to use the mouse
on the right side without having to angle out to use the mouse.

Due, I think, to the increased use of laptops and entertainment PCs,
most keyboards now-adays have keys straight across and not in the
"natural" or "wave" arrangements, and there are several linear mini-keyboards
available that don't have keypads. BUT... I love my Natural keyboard's
feel, and I don't want to use a linear keyboard. If I can't successfully just
saw off the number pad, I may construct an aluminum to cover the number
pad and set the trackball on top of it. I can't figure out why kb makers
supply a number pad anyway. I mean, how many of us are accountants?

*TimDaniels*

On 12/12/2011 8:01 PM, Timothy Daniels wrote:
I have a 12-year old Dell Natural keyboard
(probably a Microsoft clone) which I really
like but which I'd like to narrow so my MS
trackball mouse can be closer to the text keys.

Since I *never* use the number pad, I've thought
that I'd just saw it off if I could. Does anyone
here know what wiring repairs would have to be
done to make the KB work if I just sawed off
the number pad?

*TimDaniels*



please be respectful and do not cross post.

http://tlb.org/keyboardchop.html

Timothy Daniels wrote:

I love my Natural keyboard's
feel, and I don't want to use a linear keyboard. If I can't successfully just
saw off the number pad, I may construct an aluminum to cover the number
pad and set the trackball on top of it.

Or move it to the left side of the keyboard. The problem with placing
the mouse or trackball (or any user input device) atop the keyboard will
be arm and wrist fatigue as you will have to hover your arm without
support above the elevated input device. If there are any buttons
forward of the ball, they will harder to reach.

I can't figure out why kb makers
supply a number pad anyway. I mean, how many of us are accountants?

I don't see Excel as fading away. Many PCs are used as cash registers
or other POS systems where numeric input is high. Just because you
don't have a personal use for those keys doesn't mean they aren't
popular. Just because you don't use the parking brake in your car and
rely soley on your transmission to park your car doesn't mean others
don't want a parking brake. Plus those keys can be reassigned in many
applications for other use, like in a game for movement control since
the keypad represents a better alignment for keys regarding movement in
a game and the proximity of the arrowpad proves additional one-hand
reachable keys without having to reposition the hand.

Obviously the keyboard manufacturers are making what sells, and
keyboards with arrowpads and numpads are still popular enough to warrant
their manufacture and sale. It's not the "kb makers" that are deciding
what they produce. They produce what sells. Consumers decide what
sells and they still want keyboards with arrowpads and numpads. You
think they'd still be selling stuff that no one buys?

On 12/12/2011 8:39 PM, VanguardLH wrote:


Learn to use the mouse with your left hand.


Etc.

As do I. leaving my right hand free to sandwich it up when hungry :-)

"VanguardLH" wrote in message ...
Timothy Daniels wrote:

I love my Natural keyboard's
feel, and I don't want to use a linear keyboard. If I can't successfully just
saw off the number pad, I may construct an aluminum to cover the number
pad and set the trackball on top of it.

Or move it to the left side of the keyboard. The problem with placing
the mouse or trackball (or any user input device) atop the keyboard will
be arm and wrist fatigue as you will have to hover your arm without
support above the elevated input device. If there are any buttons
forward of the ball, they will harder to reach.

I've already tried placing the trackball atop the keys of the number pad,
and it feels good. I just pivot my right arm on the bottom of the forearm,
and it rotates right into place - no "suspension in mid-air" necessary.

I can't figure out why kb makers
supply a number pad anyway. I mean, how many of us are accountants?

I don't see Excel as fading away. Many PCs are used as cash registers
or other POS systems where numeric input is high. Just because you
don't have a personal use for those keys doesn't mean they aren't
popular.

I don't think the number pad is "popular". I think the manufacturers of
keyboards just don't want to make and distribute 2 versions of the same
keyboard, so they make and distribute the one with both types of keys.
I, for one, would pay more for a keyboard without the number pad.
If I really need digits, they're at the top of the keyboard.

But getting back to my question, what would be involved in making
a keyboard with a sawed-off number pad functional again?

*TimDaniels*

Timothy Daniels wrote:
I have a 12-year old Dell Natural keyboard
(probably a Microsoft clone) which I really
like but which I'd like to narrow so my MS
trackball mouse can be closer to the text keys.

Since I *never* use the number pad, I've thought
that I'd just saw it off if I could. Does anyone
here know what wiring repairs would have to be
done to make the KB work if I just sawed off
the number pad?

*TimDaniels*

How easy that is, depends on what the PCB traces look like.

I built my own keyboard years ago. My project consisted of
a complete mechanical assembly (plastic upper desk, full
set of keys, full set of switches, but no PCB underneath}.
I designed a foot long PCB with matching hole pattern, so that
the PCB could be eased up onto the exposed pins of the
purchased keyswitch assembly.

I had a single chip key scanner. The keys on the keyboard
are wired in a matrix. Some of the wires are senders, and
some are receivers. A typical scan matrix might be
17x7 for example, and use 24 wires.

S1 S2 S3 S4 S5 ...
R1
R2 x
R3
R4

In my example drawing, the keyboard scanner chip will see
that when a pulse is put on Sender #3, a signal is seen on
Receiver #2. The chip then knows the key "x" has been depressed.

The keyboard scanner can detect "keydown-x" and "keyup-x",
so both the depression of the key and release of the key
can be detected. I don't think my keyboard did that,
because I built mine a long time ago. And my keyboard
chip pre-dates chips with both key-up and key-down.
Mine only sent an event, on key-down. And mine would
auto-repeat if the key was depressed long enough.

So, now to address the "sawing issue". Each keyswitch (or
membrance contact pair), will have a connection to a sender
and a receiver. And to complicate matters, the scan pattern
looks relatively random. For example, you won't find "querty"
soldered to one wire. The pattern, to an observer, can look
quite random. Once a keyboard is fabricated, the mapping
of matrix positions to keys, may be fixed. On my keyboard
chip, you couldn't change that later. I had to get the wiring
pattern right on the first try.

All you have to do, is ensure the scan wires don't get
cut, where they feed other islands of keys. If you
cut out a section of keys like this

A B C D E
| | | | |
---+----X --+--+-- X--+--+---

the keys "D" and "E" connected to the segment on the right,
are now dead. Maybe you meant to saw through "B" and "C", but
the saw also cut the extension of the wire leading to
"D" and "E", and you may have desired for those keys
to continue to work. Now you need a bridging wire,
to join A, D, and E back together again.

As long as the PCB tech allows tracing of the conductors,
assembling a 7x17 or other popular standard matrix pattern,
you may be able to figure it out.

If the PCB is double sided only (good enough for building
keyboards, as that's how my home made keyboard PCB was made),
then you will have complete visibility of the PCB conductors.
But, what are the odds, that you can remove the keys, to
get a look at the top side ? Perhaps the bottom side is
exposed and visible, but the top side is not.

On my membrane keyboard (the one I'm typing on), using the
saw would cut the plastic membrane. On this keyboard, there
is no old-fashioned PCB to work with. Just sheets of Mylar
with conductors printed on it. The Mylar sheets are "welded"
together at key points, to maintain alignment. Using scissors
to cut a portion of that, may be possible, and it could be
enough weld points exist to maintain alignment. But if you
ruin it, it's going to be a little difficult to repair.
You can't use a soldering iron in there. And windshield
defroster paint, tends to crack if flexed, so doing
touchups on broken conductors, may not be reliable
over the long term.

Shopping for a "shorty" keyboard would be an option. And
a lot less work than sawing or using the Dremel on stuff.

HTH,
Paul

In m,
Timothy Daniels wrote:
"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
Timothy Daniels wrote:

I love my Natural keyboard's feel, and I don't want to use a linear
keyboard. If I can't successfully just saw off the number pad, I
may construct an aluminum to cover the number pad and set the
trackball on top of it.

Or move it to the left side of the keyboard. The problem with
placing the mouse or trackball (or any user input device) atop the
keyboard will be arm and wrist fatigue as you will have to hover
your arm without support above the elevated input device. If there
are any buttons forward of the ball, they will harder to reach.

I've already tried placing the trackball atop the keys of the
number pad, and it feels good. I just pivot my right arm on the
bottom of the forearm, and it rotates right into place - no
"suspension in mid-air" necessary.
I can't figure out why kb makers supply a number pad anyway. I
mean, how many of us are accountants?

I don't see Excel as fading away. Many PCs are used as cash
registers or other POS systems where numeric input is high. Just
because you don't have a personal use for those keys doesn't mean
they aren't popular.

I don't think the number pad is "popular". I think the
manufacturers of keyboards just don't want to make and distribute 2
versions of the same keyboard, so they make and distribute the one
with both types of keys. I, for one, would pay more for a keyboard
without the number pad. If I really need digits, they're at the top of
the keyboard.

I feel the same way Tim! I really wish they would design keyboards with
either a separate keypad or a removable keypad. As I don't see the point
of having them together anyway.

Yes as you previously mentioned, they do sell keyboards without keypads
and those are the ones I use most often. But they are not laid out like
a full size keyboard minus the keypad.

But getting back to my question, what would be involved in making a
keyboard with a sawed-off number pad functional again?

While nothing is impossible given enough time and money for the project.
But I'm afraid it would be way too much work and modification to make it
practical. As I am sure there are circuit traces that has nothing to do
with the keypad running through the keypad area that would need to be
reconnected. You know what I mean?

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core Duo T2400 1.83GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3