Epson 1280 - HELP

I just bought this 1280 printer and I'm having problems printing 4x6
images on Epson's 4x6 Premium Glossy Photo Paper (individually cut
sheets). All print previews display a centered image but the printed
image is not centered.

I'm using Windoz XP Pro. When I come to print a 4x6 image from any
image editing application (photoshop, print shop pro, epson's film
factory, etc) the image is perfectly centered in all previews i.e.,
the applications preview window and also epson's print preview window
but when printed (landscape mode), the right edge of the image is
cropped, the right margin is shorter than the left margin, and the top
of the image is bled off the paper (1/4 in of the image is printed on
the printer tray leaving a smear on the back of the next larger size
paper I use). When I reduce the image size to 3x5, the image is
printed up and to the left by 1/4 inch (the center point is off by 1/4
inch). A funny thing is every image preview has a 1/4 inch margin no
matter what size the image is. This is a new printer for me so I
haven't tried other pre-cut photo papers yet to see if this happens in
other size modes; 5x7 etc. Incidentally, in the epson print preview
window, both "Top of Page" and "Bottom of Page" are displayed in an
indistiguishable language.

I've tried different resolutions, different size images, portrait
mode, checked and unchecked "Center" and "Maximum", reinstalled the
driver, upgraded the driver, .... Epson Tech Support has been of no
use.

Has anyone experienced problems with images not being centered when
printing on 4x6 or other cut sheet paper?


Trevor

Trevor: Have your read this? It's the help screen from the driver. DD
Prints using the entire area of the paper, allowing you to print documents
with no margins and to produce full-bleed printouts of images.
When Auto Sheet Feeder is selected as the Paper Source setting, this feature
prints to all four edges of the paper. When Roll Paper is selected as the
Paper Source setting, this feature prints to the right and left edges of the
paper.
You can use the following media with this feature.
(Available paper sizes vary depending on your printer model.)

Photo Paper
A3+/US Super B, A3, Letter, 4 x 6"(No Perforations), 100x150 mm
Premium Glossy Photo Paper

5 x 7", 8 x 10", 11 x 14"

Matte Paper-Heavyweight
A3+/US Super B, A3, Letter, 8 x 10", 11 x 14"

Note:

If your application has margin settings, make sure they are set to zero
before printing.
Printing with this feature selected takes longer than for normal printing.
Because this feature enlarges the image to a size slightly larger than the
paper size when Sheet Feeder is selected as the Paper Source setting, the
portion of the image that extends beyond the edges of the paper will not be
printed.
Print quality may decline in the top and bottom areas of the printout, or
the area may be smeared when printing on media other than that listed above.
We recommend printing a single sheet to check quality before printing large
jobs.

You cannot use this feature with the following media:
Plain Paper, Photo Quality Ink Jet Paper, Photo Quality Glossy Film, Ink Jet
Transparencies, Iron-On Cool Peel Transfer Paper, Ink Jet Back Light Film,
360 dpi Ink Jet Paper.



All rights reserved.


"Trevor" wrote in message
om...
I just bought this 1280 printer and I'm having problems printing 4x6
images on Epson's 4x6 Premium Glossy Photo Paper (individually cut
sheets). All print previews display a centered image but the printed
image is not centered.

I'm using Windoz XP Pro. When I come to print a 4x6 image from any
image editing application (photoshop, print shop pro, epson's film
factory, etc) the image is perfectly centered in all previews i.e.,
the applications preview window and also epson's print preview window
but when printed (landscape mode), the right edge of the image is
cropped, the right margin is shorter than the left margin, and the top
of the image is bled off the paper (1/4 in of the image is printed on
the printer tray leaving a smear on the back of the next larger size
paper I use). When I reduce the image size to 3x5, the image is
printed up and to the left by 1/4 inch (the center point is off by 1/4
inch). A funny thing is every image preview has a 1/4 inch margin no
matter what size the image is. This is a new printer for me so I
haven't tried other pre-cut photo papers yet to see if this happens in
other size modes; 5x7 etc. Incidentally, in the epson print preview
window, both "Top of Page" and "Bottom of Page" are displayed in an
indistiguishable language.

I've tried different resolutions, different size images, portrait
mode, checked and unchecked "Center" and "Maximum", reinstalled the
driver, upgraded the driver, .... Epson Tech Support has been of no
use.

Has anyone experienced problems with images not being centered when
printing on 4x6 or other cut sheet paper?


Trevor

"Dick D." wrote in message hlink.net...
Trevor: Have your read this? It's the help screen from the driver. DD
Prints using the entire area of the paper, allowing you to print documents
with no margins and to produce full-bleed printouts of images.
When Auto Sheet Feeder is selected as the Paper Source setting, this feature
prints to all four edges of the paper. When Roll Paper is selected as the
Paper Source setting, this feature prints to the right and left edges of the
paper.
You can use the following media with this feature.
(Available paper sizes vary depending on your printer model.)

Photo Paper
A3+/US Super B, A3, Letter, 4 x 6"(No Perforations), 100x150 mm
Premium Glossy Photo Paper

5 x 7", 8 x 10", 11 x 14"

Matte Paper-Heavyweight
A3+/US Super B, A3, Letter, 8 x 10", 11 x 14"

Note:

If your application has margin settings, make sure they are set to zero
before printing.
Printing with this feature selected takes longer than for normal printing.
Because this feature enlarges the image to a size slightly larger than the
paper size when Sheet Feeder is selected as the Paper Source setting, the
portion of the image that extends beyond the edges of the paper will not be
printed.
Print quality may decline in the top and bottom areas of the printout, or
the area may be smeared when printing on media other than that listed above.
We recommend printing a single sheet to check quality before printing large
jobs.

You cannot use this feature with the following media:
Plain Paper, Photo Quality Ink Jet Paper, Photo Quality Glossy Film, Ink Jet
Transparencies, Iron-On Cool Peel Transfer Paper, Ink Jet Back Light Film,
360 dpi Ink Jet Paper.

Dick, thank you for the info.

I am trying to print a 3.5x5.5 image on any of the 4x6 Photo papers
listed in the driver (cut sheet, not the non-perf or roll) that is
centered, WITH A MARGIN that is equadistant on all sides.

The epson print preview window displays such an image when I set this
up. In standard/centered mode, the output image should be centered on
the paper with a 1/4" margin on all sides. Instead, the driver adds
1/4" margin all around to the image and uses the bottom right corner
of the that image as the reference point (not the center) which causes
the output to have a 1/2" margin on the bottom and right edges with a
1/8 margin on top (top of image is cropped) and the left edge bled off
the paper. The driver is not using the center point of the image as
the refernce point.

I have corrected it by not centering the image but instead offseting
it by the margin width.

This doesn't happen with images on 5x7 paper.

My driver allows for 4x6 borderless printing on Photo Paper but when I
check the "Borderless" box the paper size changes to A3.

This is gettin too wacky. Epson Tech is just following their script.
Trevor

In article , Trevor
writes

I am trying to print a 3.5x5.5 image on any of the 4x6 Photo papers
listed in the driver (cut sheet, not the non-perf or roll) that is
centered, WITH A MARGIN that is equadistant on all sides.

So you are telling the driver to use *perforated* 6x4" photo paper
settings...

....but, in your opening preamble to the original question two days ago
you said you were trying to print on "Epson 4x6" Premium Glossy Photo
Paper (individually cut sheets)". Aren't these sheets already cut to
exactly 6x4" (ie. *un*perforated sheets)?

The epson print preview window displays such an image when I set this
up. In standard/centered mode, the output image should be centered on
the paper with a 1/4" margin on all sides. Instead, the driver adds
1/4" margin all around to the image and uses the bottom right corner
of the that image as the reference point (not the center) which causes
the output to have a 1/2" margin on the bottom and right edges with a
1/8 margin on top (top of image is cropped) and the left edge bled off
the paper.

Are your orientation descriptions with respect to the image or the sheet
feeding in to and out of the printer?

The printer is expecting to find a border around the actual print area
which will later be torn off to leave a 6x4 image. The printer expects
the actual size of the paper to be 6.9x4.5", with a 1/4" perforated
border on 3 sides and 2/3" border on the trailing edge. This paper size
is manufactured to be compatible with printers which do not
intrinsically support borderless prints - even though yours does.
Consequently the printer is offsetting the image on the page to allow
for that perforated border. It sounds like the sheets you are feeding
it are not perforated and, since you are designing a 1/4" border in any
case, the printer is adding another 1/4" to two edges, to get the 1/2"
you are seeing, and expecting at least another 1/2" of paper on the
other edge and almost 3/4" on the trailing edge. The printer will print
right to the edge (possibly just past it) but a sensor tells it when the
end of the sheet has fed and it stops printing with approximately a 1/8"
margin - causing the resulting image to be cropped.

The driver is not using the center point of the image as
the refernce point.

It sounds like it is - but you are telling the printer to use perforated
sheets and feeding it unperforated ones, so the image position is off by
1/4" in each direction.

This doesn't happen with images on 5x7 paper.

5x7" paper is not supplied with a perforated border, so the driver does
not expect to find it. Consequently it will print the page exactly
where you expect it.

My driver allows for 4x6 borderless printing on Photo Paper but when I
check the "Borderless" box the paper size changes to A3.

Only certain sizes are permitted to be printed borderless - 6 in all:
4" x 6", 5" x 7", 8" x 10", letter-size, 11" x 14" and 13" x 19".

This is gettin too wacky.

Seems perfectly logical to me - you are feeding it with different paper
from what you are telling it to expect. :-)

Does the driver have a size for 100x150mm? Try using that - I seem to
recall that this is the setting which should be used for unperforated
paper. Alternatively, use the User Defined paper size to create your
own sheet size that is exactly 4x6".
--
Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's ****ed.
Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)

Trevor,
On my 1280, driver version 5.21/P, using Epson Film Factory app.and
selecting 3-1/2X5 standard image, portrait mode; the paper is premium glossy
photo paper, the size selected is 4X6 no perforations. I check the
borderless box, and when I do this Film Factory locks into the Print Size of
"fit to Media Size".. The output is actually 3-5/8+X 5-1/4 and the border is
left side 2/16, rt. side 3/16, top 6/16+ and bottom 5/16. The paper size is
exactly 4X6. There is hardly discernable difference in border size, only
measurable.
Dick
"Trevor" wrote in message
om...
"Dick D." wrote in message
hlink.net...
Trevor: Have your read this? It's the help screen from the driver. DD
Prints using the entire area of the paper, allowing you to print
documents
with no margins and to produce full-bleed printouts of images.
When Auto Sheet Feeder is selected as the Paper Source setting, this
feature
prints to all four edges of the paper. When Roll Paper is selected as
the
Paper Source setting, this feature prints to the right and left edges of
the
paper.
You can use the following media with this feature.
(Available paper sizes vary depending on your printer model.)

Photo Paper
A3+/US Super B, A3, Letter, 4 x 6"(No Perforations), 100x150 mm
Premium Glossy Photo Paper

5 x 7", 8 x 10", 11 x 14"

Matte Paper-Heavyweight
A3+/US Super B, A3, Letter, 8 x 10", 11 x 14"

Note:

If your application has margin settings, make sure they are set to zero
before printing.
Printing with this feature selected takes longer than for normal
printing.
Because this feature enlarges the image to a size slightly larger than
the
paper size when Sheet Feeder is selected as the Paper Source setting,
the
portion of the image that extends beyond the edges of the paper will not
be
printed.
Print quality may decline in the top and bottom areas of the printout,
or
the area may be smeared when printing on media other than that listed
above.
We recommend printing a single sheet to check quality before printing
large
jobs.

You cannot use this feature with the following media:
Plain Paper, Photo Quality Ink Jet Paper, Photo Quality Glossy Film, Ink
Jet
Transparencies, Iron-On Cool Peel Transfer Paper, Ink Jet Back Light
Film,
360 dpi Ink Jet Paper.

Dick, thank you for the info.

I am trying to print a 3.5x5.5 image on any of the 4x6 Photo papers
listed in the driver (cut sheet, not the non-perf or roll) that is
centered, WITH A MARGIN that is equadistant on all sides.

The epson print preview window displays such an image when I set this
up. In standard/centered mode, the output image should be centered on
the paper with a 1/4" margin on all sides. Instead, the driver adds
1/4" margin all around to the image and uses the bottom right corner
of the that image as the reference point (not the center) which causes
the output to have a 1/2" margin on the bottom and right edges with a
1/8 margin on top (top of image is cropped) and the left edge bled off
the paper. The driver is not using the center point of the image as
the refernce point.

I have corrected it by not centering the image but instead offseting
it by the margin width.

This doesn't happen with images on 5x7 paper.

My driver allows for 4x6 borderless printing on Photo Paper but when I
check the "Borderless" box the paper size changes to A3.

This is gettin too wacky. Epson Tech is just following their script.
Trevor

Trevor, More on testing. The same film factory, the same image, only this
time I first selected in film factory the size of print I wanted, 4X6. I
then went into the 1280 driver and selected premium glossy photo paper, and
paper size of 4X6 no perfs. I then checked the borderless box and cliked ok.
I then ended up back in film factory and the print size had reset to "Fit to
Media Size". I selected print and the result was a perfect full bleed output
to the paper. I am using plain paper 8-1/2X11 for these tests and measure
the print size of this test to maybe a 1/32 inch more than 4X6, obviously
full bleed.

I then Used Adobe PhotoShop 6.0 and using the same image as in FilmFactory I
set up the PS "print options" to print to "Scale toFit Media", unchecked
"Show Bounding Box". I then went to the 1280 driver and selected premium
glossy photo paper, paper size of 4X6 no perfs, and checked "borderless" The
print was another perfect full bleed 4X6.
Dick
Dick
"Trevor" wrote in message
om...
"Dick D." wrote in message
hlink.net...
Trevor: Have your read this? It's the help screen from the driver. DD
Prints using the entire area of the paper, allowing you to print
documents
with no margins and to produce full-bleed printouts of images.
When Auto Sheet Feeder is selected as the Paper Source setting, this
feature
prints to all four edges of the paper. When Roll Paper is selected as
the
Paper Source setting, this feature prints to the right and left edges of
the
paper.
You can use the following media with this feature.
(Available paper sizes vary depending on your printer model.)

Photo Paper
A3+/US Super B, A3, Letter, 4 x 6"(No Perforations), 100x150 mm
Premium Glossy Photo Paper

5 x 7", 8 x 10", 11 x 14"

Matte Paper-Heavyweight
A3+/US Super B, A3, Letter, 8 x 10", 11 x 14"

Note:

If your application has margin settings, make sure they are set to zero
before printing.
Printing with this feature selected takes longer than for normal
printing.
Because this feature enlarges the image to a size slightly larger than
the
paper size when Sheet Feeder is selected as the Paper Source setting,
the
portion of the image that extends beyond the edges of the paper will not
be
printed.
Print quality may decline in the top and bottom areas of the printout,
or
the area may be smeared when printing on media other than that listed
above.
We recommend printing a single sheet to check quality before printing
large
jobs.

You cannot use this feature with the following media:
Plain Paper, Photo Quality Ink Jet Paper, Photo Quality Glossy Film, Ink
Jet
Transparencies, Iron-On Cool Peel Transfer Paper, Ink Jet Back Light
Film,
360 dpi Ink Jet Paper.

Dick, thank you for the info.

I am trying to print a 3.5x5.5 image on any of the 4x6 Photo papers
listed in the driver (cut sheet, not the non-perf or roll) that is
centered, WITH A MARGIN that is equadistant on all sides.

The epson print preview window displays such an image when I set this
up. In standard/centered mode, the output image should be centered on
the paper with a 1/4" margin on all sides. Instead, the driver adds
1/4" margin all around to the image and uses the bottom right corner
of the that image as the reference point (not the center) which causes
the output to have a 1/2" margin on the bottom and right edges with a
1/8 margin on top (top of image is cropped) and the left edge bled off
the paper. The driver is not using the center point of the image as
the refernce point.

I have corrected it by not centering the image but instead offseting
it by the margin width.

This doesn't happen with images on 5x7 paper.

My driver allows for 4x6 borderless printing on Photo Paper but when I
check the "Borderless" box the paper size changes to A3.

This is gettin too wacky. Epson Tech is just following their script.
Trevor

Kennedy McEwen wrote in message ...
In article , Trevor
writes

I am trying to print a 3.5x5.5 image on any of the 4x6 Photo papers
listed in the driver (cut sheet, not the non-perf or roll) that is
centered, WITH A MARGIN that is equadistant on all sides.

So you are telling the driver to use *perforated* 6x4" photo paper
settings...

...but, in your opening preamble to the original question two days ago
you said you were trying to print on "Epson 4x6" Premium Glossy Photo
Paper (individually cut sheets)". Aren't these sheets already cut to
exactly 6x4" (ie. *un*perforated sheets)?

Thanks for your response Kennedy. I believe I wrote "... (cut sheet,
NOT the non-perf or roll)..." meaning I've been using the cut sheet
paper as opposed to the non-perforated or unperforated or the paper
without perforations. I've been using the 4x6 epson premium glossy
photo paper with each sheet measuring 4" x 6".

Are your orientation descriptions with respect to the image or the sheet
feeding in to and out of the printer?

It is pretty clear in the reference guide wich way to orient the
paper. Thanks your for reminding me however.


My driver allows for 4x6 borderless printing on Photo Paper but when I
check the "Borderless" box the paper size changes to A3.

Only certain sizes are permitted to be printed borderless - 6 in all:
4" x 6", 5" x 7", 8" x 10", letter-size, 11" x 14" and 13" x 19".

In my driver, when I select the paper type and paper size before I
check the borderless box, "Photo Paper 4x6 in" is listed in the
options of paper sizes. If I select "Photo Paper 4x6 in" and then
check the borderless box, I get the warning message that print quality
in the top and bottom areas may decline ..., do I want to continue. I
select "OK" and at that point the paper size changes to "A311.7 x 16.5
in". I click on the little arrow on the right of the paper size
selection box and all sizes available for borderless printing on
Premium Glossy Photo paper are displayed. "Photo Paper 4x6 in" is not
listed however "Photo Paper 4x6 in No Perforations" is listed. But
that is not the size I am using. Therefore printing borderless on 4x6
individually cut sheets of Premium Glossy Photo Paper is not an option
with the driver I have. My question was to others on this message
board "Do you experience the same thing?

Maybe you could do me a favor and do a little Epson 1280 experiment.
Make a 4x6 image and print it to 4x6 cut sheet photo paper. In your
image application select "centered". In the Epson driver, select
"Standard" or "Maximum" and "Centered" and also Print With Preview.
Note in the preview window how the image looks. Note on the output
image if it centered and if any sides are cropped of bled off the
page. Then do the same thing with a 5x7 image on 5x7 paper. Let me
know what happens. Look to see if your output for the 4x6 image
closely resembles the 4x6 preview window and the 5x7 output.

Trevor

"Dick D." wrote in message hlink.net...
Trevor, More on testing. The same film factory, the same image, only this
time I first selected in film factory the size of print I wanted, 4X6. I
then went into the 1280 driver and selected premium glossy photo paper, and
paper size of 4X6 no perfs. I then checked the borderless box and cliked ok.
I then ended up back in film factory and the print size had reset to "Fit to
Media Size". I selected print and the result was a perfect full bleed output
to the paper. I am using plain paper 8-1/2X11 for these tests and measure
the print size of this test to maybe a 1/32 inch more than 4X6, obviously
full bleed.

I then Used Adobe PhotoShop 6.0 and using the same image as in FilmFactory I
set up the PS "print options" to print to "Scale toFit Media", unchecked
"Show Bounding Box". I then went to the 1280 driver and selected premium
glossy photo paper, paper size of 4X6 no perfs, and checked "borderless" The
print was another perfect full bleed 4X6.
Dick
Dick

Thanks Dick for all of your Testing. But my questions have been
pertaining to 4x6 INDIVIDUALLY CUT SHEETS, NOT the no perf variety.
And I don't know why you think I'm trying to print borderless. I have
been trying to get an image centered on 4X6 paper with an equal border
on all sides. Please read my past posts.

I did make note that printing borderless on Photo Paper for "Photo
Paper 4x6 in" size is not available in my driver. I was mearly asking
if others noted this same thing.

I am really sorry for all of the misunderstandings. I am done with
this discussion. Thanks for your help.

Trevor

In article , Trevor
writes

Thanks Dick for all of your Testing. But my questions have been
pertaining to 4x6 INDIVIDUALLY CUT SHEETS, NOT the no perf variety.

Do your sheets have perforations around the edges? If not (and that is
what you have said elsewhere - so check again) then they *are* the "no
perf" variety - select that size and your problems will disappear.

I did make note that printing borderless on Photo Paper for "Photo
Paper 4x6 in" size is not available in my driver.

It is - you have already told us that you can print on "4x6" no
perforations". Which part of "NO" don't you understand? ;-)

I was mearly asking
if others noted this same thing.

I am really sorry for all of the misunderstandings. I am done with
this discussion.

Horse led to oasis...
--
Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's ****ed.
Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)

In article , Trevor
writes
Kennedy McEwen wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor
writes

I am trying to print a 3.5x5.5 image on any of the 4x6 Photo papers
listed in the driver (cut sheet, not the non-perf or roll) that is
centered, WITH A MARGIN that is equadistant on all sides.

So you are telling the driver to use *perforated* 6x4" photo paper
settings...

...but, in your opening preamble to the original question two days ago
you said you were trying to print on "Epson 4x6" Premium Glossy Photo
Paper (individually cut sheets)". Aren't these sheets already cut to
exactly 6x4" (ie. *un*perforated sheets)?

Thanks for your response Kennedy. I believe I wrote "... (cut sheet,
NOT the non-perf or roll)..." meaning I've been using the cut sheet
paper as opposed to the non-perforated or unperforated or the paper
without perforations. I've been using the 4x6 epson premium glossy
photo paper with each sheet measuring 4" x 6".

The paper you are using *is* the non-perforated - ie. it is exactly
6"x4" without any perforations around the edge.

The size you are choosing in the driver is, as stated twice in your own
words now, "NOT the non-perforated" - ie. it *is* the perforated type of
paper.

Don't you see a conflict here?

Are your orientation descriptions with respect to the image or the sheet
feeding in to and out of the printer?

It is pretty clear in the reference guide wich way to orient the
paper. Thanks your for reminding me however.

That wasn't my question. I asked what your descriptions (of "top",
"bottom", "left" and "right" referred to - the paper as it feeds through
the printer or the image as you look at it on the sheet after it has
printed. One is 180deg rotated from the other - meaning that top in one
refers to bottom in the other etc.

In my driver, when I select the paper type and paper size before I
check the borderless box, "Photo Paper 4x6 in" is listed in the
options of paper sizes.

This is a perforated print size - ie. the entire sheet that the printer
expects is 6.9x4.5".

If I select "Photo Paper 4x6 in" and then
check the borderless box, I get the warning message that print quality
in the top and bottom areas may decline ..., do I want to continue.

No surprise there - prints are only driven by the push or pull tractors
at the beginning or end of the sheet, so sheet movement accuracy is
poorer than in the main area.

I
select "OK" and at that point the paper size changes to "A311.7 x 16.5
in". I click on the little arrow on the right of the paper size
selection box and all sizes available for borderless printing on
Premium Glossy Photo paper are displayed. "Photo Paper 4x6 in" is not
listed
Because this is NOT a borderless print size - it is intended for
printers which do not have this capability.

however "Photo Paper 4x6 in No Perforations" is listed. But
that is not the size I am using.

Lets see:
Does the paper that you have measure exactly 4x6"? You said it does.
Does the paper have perforations around the edge? You said it doesn't.
That sounds like the paper you have is "4x6in No Perforations"! Which
part of "NO" don't you understand?

Therefore printing borderless on 4x6
individually cut sheets of Premium Glossy Photo Paper is not an option
with the driver I have.

In what way do you *think* the paper you have differs from the
description? This is a paper *SIZE* selection dialog, not a paper
*TYPE* dialog - you have already selected Premium Glossy Photo Paper on
the opening page of the driver!

Furthermore, since the border that the Epson prints is only 1/8" wide in
any case and you are trying to print with a 1/4" border you should NOT
be choosing the borderless option in any case! Borderless actually
prints the image slightly larger in size so that any tolerances in sheet
size, pickup and transport can be accommodated without leaving a trace
border. In the example you are attempting to print, you will end up
with borders of an undefined size which are slightly smaller than the
1/4" that you have set them up to be if you choose "borderless". If you
do not choose this option then the print will be made EXACTLY as you
intend it to be - assuming you choose the correct paper size, reading
and understanding what "no perforations" means.
--
Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's ****ed.
Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)