x800xl and Far Cry, disasterous!

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 23:16:11 GMT, "Phil Weldon"
wrote:
2. A display adapter using the nVidia 6800 uses far less power (perhaps
half) compared to one using the nVidia 6800 Ultra.

Yes, the PSU calculator shows a vanilla 6800 as drawing 49w and an Ultra
drawing 77w.

3. New GPUs aren't 'requiring their own power'; some display adapter have
several connecting pins for +12V DC; this connects to the same +12V DC rail
that drives use. This replaces power that was previously drawn from the +5V
DC and/or +3.3V DC rails. The display adapters have on-board DC-to-DC
down-convertor/regulators that work more efficiently with +12V DC input than
with +5V DC or +3.3V DC input. The connecting wires and traces can be
smaller. The higher input voltage provides more stable operation. There is
power wasted and less heat produced using +12V DC than with the lower
voltages. Just because a display adapter requires a +12V DC connector
doesn't mean it draws more power than one which does not - it may even draw
less for the reasons just given. Using multiple +12V DC connectors SAVES
power because less in wasted in contact and conductor resistance.

I've not delved too much into how they work, but I was under the
impression that they needed their own power connectors because they draw
more watts than can be supplied directly through the (lower voltage) AGP
slot. I know they have step down converters to turn the 12v back into
vcore usable voltages, and that step-down is more efficient than
step-up.

6. | Hmm, yes, questionable. The calc suggested 310w used, so I put in a
350w
| cheapo and when it got hot it would power down. Using the mobo power
| check, when it was hot the PSU delivered less power, to the point it
| would trip. I bought a more expensive 350w dual rail PSU and it was much
| more stable.
In all probability your system was inadequately ventilated, though it may
also be that your power supply was falsly rated. What was the room ambient
temperature and the temperature of the air leaving the power supply? Did
you check, or did you just rely on what you were told? Power supplies are
rated at a specific temperatures. At higher temperatures they must be
derated. A power supply that is more than adequate at 60 C can be
inadequate at 75 C.

At the time I was measuring typically ambient temperatures around
26-28c, CPU 28c, GPU 30c, case 34c, PSU output 32c, drives 35c. I put an
extra fan blowing out in bottom rear and the case temp dropped to 30c
and the drives 32c. Seems the GPU being a long card and placed roughly
in the middle of the case cut the airflow bottom to top, so the extra
fan helped the airflow in the lower half of the case.

The cheapo PSU would often be outputting air at 42c+ and the case temp
was a few degrees higher, it also did not deliver stable 3.3v/12v when
it ran hot (for some reason the 1.5v and 5v always stayed stable, the
3.3v would rise to around 3.6v and the 12v would drop as low as 10.5v).
The new PSU runs a lot cooler and is more stable in it's power delivery.
--
Alfie
http://www.delphia.co.uk/
Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language.

On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 04:28:54 GMT, Al Kaufmann
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 23:16:11 GMT, "Phil Weldon"
wrote:

In all probability your system was inadequately ventilated, though it may
also be that your power supply was falsly rated. What was the room ambient
temperature and the temperature of the air leaving the power supply? Did
you check, or did you just rely on what you were told? Power supplies are
rated at a specific temperatures. At higher temperatures they must be
derated. A power supply that is more than adequate at 60 C can be
inadequate at 75 C.

I bought the Antec TruePower supply and I knew that the power supply
fans run at the lowest speed appropriate to load and conditions. I
guess they do not speed up until the power supply gets hot. Not a
good idea if you are into overclocking.

I have enough case fans and a very good cpu heatsink and fan but still
my system gets about 10C hotter than a similar system with an Enermax
power supply and I have been scratching my head about that for a long
time now. I even thought I had faulty case fans because they were not
pushing much air. I finally read the fine print in the power supply
manual and the "special fan only connectors" the power supply provides
also regulate the case fans to the lowest speeds! I just wonder how
the power supply can tell what temperature I want inside my case.

Guess I will be disconnecing those fan only power connectors and using
the regular connectors.

Ak


TBH the one problem I have with Antec PSUs is that their fan speeds
(both for their internal fans and fans on the fan only leads) seem to
be set far too conservatively: even when things are getting pretty
hot, the fans are still not running very fast. Using the PSU
temperature to set case fan speeds seems a bit daft to me anyway.

I don't use their fan only leads for those reasons, and on my Antec
PSU I've connected the fans directly to 12V - I've changed them for
better fans, as well. It's a little bit on the noisy side ATM, so at
some point I'll probably put a resistor in to reduce the voltage to
them, and the noise, a little.

Patrick

- take five to email me...

"AAvK" wrote in message
news:iML1f.712$UF4.402@fed1read02...

What power supply do you have in this rig? sounds too low end.
McG.


It's an "Avus Premier Performance Pro Gold 450w"...
really a damn good one so far, 'cept fer the damn problem
I've got.

--
Giant_Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com

That doesn't mean it will supply the needed current to either the 12v or 5v
rails. Another thing is that the motherboards own voltage regulators may
not be enough to supply the needed current to the card. Remember, this is a
1.5v card. The mobo has regulator IC's for PCI/PCI-e bus or PCI and AGP
buses. Your problem may not show up until the IC is loaded and hot.
I haven't heard of Avus. I have heard of and use Thermaltake and Antec. I
have a 420W and 430W in use on 2 different rigs, no problems with the cards
I'm using. It isn't so much the wattage, but the actual current each rail
is designed to supply. Both my PS's have all this info on a label on the PS
itself.
McG.

Switching PSU have to have a minimal load to function, but as long as that
minimal load is met, it shouldn't be a problem. Your load is more than
enough to meet the minimal load it would need.

--
there is no .sig
"Alfie [UK]" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:51:03 GMT, "Phil Weldon"
wrote:

I was advised by others not to put in a 500w PSU as I first wanted to
do. Yes PSUs have under-draw protection, but prolonged use at low power
levels supposedly reduces the lifetime of the PSU.

As the 2nd link you provided states; PSUs MAY not have over-temperature
protection, where over-temperature is the result of current overload or
fan failure.

Try a read of
http://www.formfactors.org/developer...0Ratified.pdff
and
http://www.formfactors.org/developer...public_br2.pdf
.
Pay particular attention to:
"System power supply needs vary widely depending on factors such as the
application (that is, for desktop, workstation, or server), intended
ambient
environment (temperature, line voltage), or motherboard power
requirements."

--
Alfie
http://www.delphia.co.uk/
It's called Irony. You know. Like goldy or silvery, only it's made out of
iron.

"dave" once tried to test me with:

It'll definately be the power supply - we had a problem with an nVidia
card and a 450W PSU, the games ran OK but when playing Far Cry for two
hours the PSU blew up (obviously the PSU was being overdriven and wasn't
regulated poroperly) !

We now have a 750W PSU and everything is fine - If you wish to maintain
cutting edge performance without continually replacing PSU you're
probably better getting a 1KW PSU :-)

holy ****

--

Knight37 - http://knightgames.blogspot.com

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.

That doesn't mean it will supply the needed current to either the 12v or 5v
rails. Another thing is that the motherboards own voltage regulators may not be enough to supply the needed current to the card.
Remember, this is a 1.5v card. The mobo has regulator IC's for PCI/PCI-e bus or PCI and AGP buses. Your problem may not show up
until the IC is loaded and hot.
I haven't heard of Avus. I have heard of and use Thermaltake and Antec. I have a 420W and 430W in use on 2 different rigs, no
problems with the cards I'm using. It isn't so much the wattage, but the actual current each rail is designed to supply. Both my
PS's have all this info on a label on the PS itself.
McG.

http://www.avus.com/default.asp?PageNo=DEFAULT ... looks like they don't make
this PSu anymore. It does have the big sticker visible on the side, but I can't understand
most of the tech garble like you can. This mobo is an Abit IS7 ("regular" apart from
other model types), know anything about it, or where I can read about those IC details?
http://www.abit-usa.com/products/mb/...ies=1&model=79

Thanks for the help tho...

--
Giant_Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com

"AAvK" wrote in message
news:PO_1f.758$UF4.171@fed1read02...

That doesn't mean it will supply the needed current to either the 12v or
5v
rails. Another thing is that the motherboards own voltage regulators may
not be enough to supply the needed current to the card. Remember, this is
a 1.5v card. The mobo has regulator IC's for PCI/PCI-e bus or PCI and
AGP buses. Your problem may not show up until the IC is loaded and hot.
I haven't heard of Avus. I have heard of and use Thermaltake and Antec.
I have a 420W and 430W in use on 2 different rigs, no problems with the
cards I'm using. It isn't so much the wattage, but the actual current
each rail is designed to supply. Both my PS's have all this info on a
label on the PS itself.
McG.

http://www.avus.com/default.asp?PageNo=DEFAULT ... looks like they don't
make
this PSu anymore. It does have the big sticker visible on the side, but I
can't understand
most of the tech garble like you can. This mobo is an Abit IS7 ("regular"
apart from
other model types), know anything about it, or where I can read about
those IC details?
http://www.abit-usa.com/products/mb/...ies=1&model=79

Thanks for the help tho...

Usually I find this stuff in the back pages of the user manuals, when it is
there to be found. I've dl'd the manual for the ABit IS7 series and they
don't show this information. 'White Paper' specs are harder to get for
consumer items like add in cards and motherboards. Actual schematics are
nearly impossible to obtain. I know what the regulator IC's look like and
it's usually easy to tell if one is blown. It will have a burnt sooty
looking spot near the case on one or two of the legs. This is getting way
deeper than any normal consumer will ever go though. Troubleshooting at
this level is very difficult for anyone outside the manufacturers production
facility.
I probably shouldn't have gone this way with you. There are other "likely
suspects" to look at and account for first. And, at best, the most
thorough process of elimination you can perform will not identify the actual
problem. It may get you to the basic section, such as vid card or something
in the PSU.

Your problem can also be the video card itself. It can still be the PSU.
Have you tried to use a different power cable connector than the one you
have plugged into the card now? If it were simply resetting the system
(arbitrary restart) would have me thinking video card. That it is shutting
the system down has me thinking power. The only place you can really look
is the PSU itself and any of its connectors.
My thoughts on this include that you have already turned off some features
that are known to cause stability problems with some ATI cards.
I really hope this turns out to a simple problem with a simple solution,
like a poor connection of the power cable to the vid card. Let us know what
you find, ok?
McG.


--
Giant_Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com

Actually, the active components that may fail in DC-DC
downconvertor/regulators are not ICs, but power transistors. The associated
capacitors may fail if subjected to prolonged overheating. Obviously a
failed power transistor in a DC-DC downconvertor/regulator is not the
problem for the original poster as after shut-down the system can be
restarted successfully.

Phil Weldon

"McGrandpa" wrote in message
...
|
| "AAvK" wrote in message
| news:PO_1f.758$UF4.171@fed1read02...
|
| That doesn't mean it will supply the needed current to either the 12v
or
| 5v
| rails. Another thing is that the motherboards own voltage regulators
may
| not be enough to supply the needed current to the card. Remember, this
is
| a 1.5v card. The mobo has regulator IC's for PCI/PCI-e bus or PCI and
| AGP buses. Your problem may not show up until the IC is loaded and
hot.
| I haven't heard of Avus. I have heard of and use Thermaltake and
Antec.
| I have a 420W and 430W in use on 2 different rigs, no problems with the
| cards I'm using. It isn't so much the wattage, but the actual current
| each rail is designed to supply. Both my PS's have all this info on a
| label on the PS itself.
| McG.
|
| http://www.avus.com/default.asp?PageNo=DEFAULT ... looks like they don't
| make
| this PSu anymore. It does have the big sticker visible on the side, but
I
| can't understand
| most of the tech garble like you can. This mobo is an Abit IS7
("regular"
| apart from
| other model types), know anything about it, or where I can read about
| those IC details?
| http://www.abit-usa.com/products/mb/...ies=1&model=79
|
| Thanks for the help tho...
|
| Usually I find this stuff in the back pages of the user manuals, when it
is
| there to be found. I've dl'd the manual for the ABit IS7 series and they
| don't show this information. 'White Paper' specs are harder to get for
| consumer items like add in cards and motherboards. Actual schematics are
| nearly impossible to obtain. I know what the regulator IC's look like and
| it's usually easy to tell if one is blown. It will have a burnt sooty
| looking spot near the case on one or two of the legs. This is getting way
| deeper than any normal consumer will ever go though. Troubleshooting at
| this level is very difficult for anyone outside the manufacturers
production
| facility.
| I probably shouldn't have gone this way with you. There are other "likely
| suspects" to look at and account for first. And, at best, the most
| thorough process of elimination you can perform will not identify the
actual
| problem. It may get you to the basic section, such as vid card or
something
| in the PSU.
|
| Your problem can also be the video card itself. It can still be the PSU.
| Have you tried to use a different power cable connector than the one you
| have plugged into the card now? If it were simply resetting the system
| (arbitrary restart) would have me thinking video card. That it is
shutting
| the system down has me thinking power. The only place you can really look
| is the PSU itself and any of its connectors.
| My thoughts on this include that you have already turned off some features
| that are known to cause stability problems with some ATI cards.
| I really hope this turns out to a simple problem with a simple solution,
| like a poor connection of the power cable to the vid card. Let us know
what
| you find, ok?
| McG.
|
|
| --
| Giant_Alex
| cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
|
|
|

the 3 leg 7905 regulator 'IC' contains power transistor(s). I know what
you're saying, but i haven't seen any of the power transistors actually on
the board in the traces to the slots. I have seen several of the regulator
ic's.
McG.

"Phil Weldon" wrote in message
link.net...
Actually, the active components that may fail in DC-DC
downconvertor/regulators are not ICs, but power transistors. The
associated
capacitors may fail if subjected to prolonged overheating. Obviously a
failed power transistor in a DC-DC downconvertor/regulator is not the
problem for the original poster as after shut-down the system can be
restarted successfully.

Phil Weldon

"McGrandpa" wrote in message
...
|
| "AAvK" wrote in message
| news:PO_1f.758$UF4.171@fed1read02...
|
| That doesn't mean it will supply the needed current to either the 12v
or
| 5v
| rails. Another thing is that the motherboards own voltage regulators
may
| not be enough to supply the needed current to the card. Remember,
this
is
| a 1.5v card. The mobo has regulator IC's for PCI/PCI-e bus or PCI
and
| AGP buses. Your problem may not show up until the IC is loaded and
hot.
| I haven't heard of Avus. I have heard of and use Thermaltake and
Antec.
| I have a 420W and 430W in use on 2 different rigs, no problems with
the
| cards I'm using. It isn't so much the wattage, but the actual
current
| each rail is designed to supply. Both my PS's have all this info on
a
| label on the PS itself.
| McG.
|
| http://www.avus.com/default.asp?PageNo=DEFAULT ... looks like they
don't
| make
| this PSu anymore. It does have the big sticker visible on the side,
but
I
| can't understand
| most of the tech garble like you can. This mobo is an Abit IS7
("regular"
| apart from
| other model types), know anything about it, or where I can read about
| those IC details?
| http://www.abit-usa.com/products/mb/...ies=1&model=79
|
| Thanks for the help tho...
|
| Usually I find this stuff in the back pages of the user manuals, when it
is
| there to be found. I've dl'd the manual for the ABit IS7 series and
they
| don't show this information. 'White Paper' specs are harder to get for
| consumer items like add in cards and motherboards. Actual schematics
are
| nearly impossible to obtain. I know what the regulator IC's look like
and
| it's usually easy to tell if one is blown. It will have a burnt sooty
| looking spot near the case on one or two of the legs. This is getting
way
| deeper than any normal consumer will ever go though. Troubleshooting at
| this level is very difficult for anyone outside the manufacturers
production
| facility.
| I probably shouldn't have gone this way with you. There are other
"likely
| suspects" to look at and account for first. And, at best, the most
| thorough process of elimination you can perform will not identify the
actual
| problem. It may get you to the basic section, such as vid card or
something
| in the PSU.
|
| Your problem can also be the video card itself. It can still be the
PSU.
| Have you tried to use a different power cable connector than the one you
| have plugged into the card now? If it were simply resetting the system
| (arbitrary restart) would have me thinking video card. That it is
shutting
| the system down has me thinking power. The only place you can really
look
| is the PSU itself and any of its connectors.
| My thoughts on this include that you have already turned off some
features
| that are known to cause stability problems with some ATI cards.
| I really hope this turns out to a simple problem with a simple solution,
| like a poor connection of the power cable to the vid card. Let us know
what
| you find, ok?
| McG.
|
|
| --
| Giant_Alex
| cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
|
|
|

'McGrandpa' wrote:
| the 3 leg 7905 regulator 'IC' contains power transistor(s). I know what
| you're saying, but i haven't seen any of the power transistors actually on
| the board in the traces to the slots. I have seen several of the
regulator
| ic's.
_____

A 7905 is a +5V three pin LINEAR regulator, NOT a switching regulator or a
DC-DC down convertor/regulator.

Phil Weldon

"McGrandpa" wrote in message
...
| the 3 leg 7905 regulator 'IC' contains power transistor(s). I know what
| you're saying, but i haven't seen any of the power transistors actually on
| the board in the traces to the slots. I have seen several of the
regulator
| ic's.
| McG.
|
| "Phil Weldon" wrote in message
| link.net...
| Actually, the active components that may fail in DC-DC
| downconvertor/regulators are not ICs, but power transistors. The
| associated
| capacitors may fail if subjected to prolonged overheating. Obviously a
| failed power transistor in a DC-DC downconvertor/regulator is not the
| problem for the original poster as after shut-down the system can be
| restarted successfully.
|
| Phil Weldon