which ink is likely to run out first?

There should be an address on the ink cartridges and an email or
website. Contact the appropriate offices and ask. If you can't get an
answer from them, and no one has done testing that is published (likely
the case) then you are left deciding for yourself what the saving is
worth versus other alternatives.

Art

Mary wrote:

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:myEsi.27118$rX4.13306@pd7urf2no...

Hi Mary,

I honestly have no opinion about Staples ink. I believe Staples bought
Korectype and with that, ended up with those inks being used in Staples
ink refill cartridges.


Is Korectype dye based and any good. I used Staples compatibles a lot with
my Canon IP 1500 which I stil use occasionally, and continued with Staples
when I got the IP 4000. Ordinary printing is fine, and photo printing seems
to be ok and like I said, I mostly print indoor photos with flas of family,
relatives, etc.not all that often, but when I do, I print quite a few photos
to send to them. I've always thought that digital cameras are much better
suited to sending jpgs in the mail, than printing stills though I like my
digital camera.


I am a believer in asking retailers and distributors to answer these
types of question from clients. I would ask them how you can find out
how fade resistance their inks are relative to OEM or whatever, they may
refer you to the company that actually does that filling?.


The only people I see when I go to Staples is the sales clerks, and they
wouldn't know anything about that. In fact, in the area of computers, I
usually know more than they do. And in the area of inks or photo paper they
wouldn't know. They don't get training about inks and I would doubt the
Manager would know.

Mary

Just to be clear, when you say:

For photo longevity Canon ink is better than any of the other brands
that I have tested. I have not tested Staples, but I would be
surprised if it is as good as Canon.

Are those just Canon printer designated dye inks (OEM and 3rd party), or
also Epson, Lexmark, HP designated inks, etc?


Art

Ray wrote:

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:50:14 -0400, "Mary" wrote:


"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:VhEsi.25613$_d2.15864@pd7urf3no...

Hi Mary,

Dye inks, overall, are not as light stable as pigment inks. Canon has
been improving their dye ink longevity over the last several years. The
Canon OEM inks, while better than many 3rd party are still not shining
examples in the industry of long life fade-resistance.

This is not to suggest they will fade away indoors in dark keeping.
Fluorescent lamps, outdoor natural and halogen bulbs probably provide
the most fade-causing UV light. To protect your images, store them in a
relatively dry and pollution free area. Ground Ozone and other
pollutants including carbon monoxide (from the exhaust of cars) are
tough on dye ink prints.

Using a swellable polymer paper, if the results look good, will improve
the permanence of dye inks, but they are more vulnerable to fingerprints
and dampness.

I usually use Kodak double sided semi gloss photo paper which seem to look
ok, though its just 7 ml it says on the front of the Kodak package.What
company makes swellable polymer paper? I find that Staples are the only
place near me in Toronto to buy photo paper and its quite expensive, and
they don't seem to have an awful lot of variety. Just basic. They don't even
have the double sided semi gloss I like, though they used to stock it but
now just have it in their catalog. I got some a couple of weeks ago in
Shoppers, though thats all they had in the way of photo paper. They don't
usually stock any. I like the semi gloss photo paper I have, but its become
hard to find, and I don't think its a regular item in Shoppers.


Depending upon the ink set, Canon dye inks rate between about 2 years to
25 years. Most current Canon inkset are toward the mid high range.

Would Staples compatible cartridges be similar?

Mary


For photo longevity Canon ink is better than any of the other brands
that I have tested. I have not tested Staples, but I would be
surprised if it is as good as Canon.

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:TZati.30979$fJ5.24778@pd7urf1no...
Kodak has changed their paper technology many times over the last few
years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak can
probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus microporous.

In general, swellable polymer technology is not waterproof. The ink
will soak off the surface with a bit of hot water, because the polymer
remains water soluble.

Thank you for the information Art. You obviously know a lot about it, but it
seems complicated to me.

Mary


To give you a bit more detail:

Microporous paper surfaces usually have a ceramic or plastic surface
which has microscopic holes which allow the ink to pass through. The
surface under it is usually a clay coating called kaolin which is the
same material in white porcelain and a mordant which is designed to lock
the ink into place in this material. Once the ink is dry, it tends to be
set in the lower layer, and the ink remains relatively waterproof.
However, since the surface if full of holes, energized ink molecules
(from UV light, or other chemical sources) can escape through those
holes, and do (thus the ink colors fade).

Swellable polymer is a coating of complex long chain tangled molecules.
Gelatin, egg white, and some soluble synthetic chemicals all are these
types of materials. When the ink hits these materials the liquid makes
the polymer swell which opens up some of the tangles and makes space,
where the ink colors fits. Then, the coating dries, and locks the
colorant into these tangled molecules, sealing them in.

The only major problem with this method is that the paper is slower
drying and may be vulnerable to damage when it leaves the printer.
Even when dry, the surface tends to be softer and more easily damaged
mechanically , and finally, it remains water soluble, so dampness and
fingerprints may damage it, and the ink may wash out of wet.

In general, you can determine a swellable polymer paper by wetting some
that is printed (it will ruin the print, so use scrap or a failed image)
and see if the surface becomes sticky, or even washes off in the water
the ink begins to run. You may be able to tell by wetting a finger and
touching a corner of a non-print area and see if it gets quite sticky.
If so, it is probably swellable polymer.

Art


Mary wrote:

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:VhEsi.25613$_d2.15864@pd7urf3no...

Hi Mary,

Dye inks, overall, are not as light stable as pigment inks. Canon has
been improving their dye ink longevity over the last several years. The
Canon OEM inks, while better than many 3rd party are still not shining
examples in the industry of long life fade-resistance.

This is not to suggest they will fade away indoors in dark keeping.
Fluorescent lamps, outdoor natural and halogen bulbs probably provide
the most fade-causing UV light. To protect your images, store them in a
relatively dry and pollution free area. Ground Ozone and other
pollutants including carbon monoxide (from the exhaust of cars) are
tough on dye ink prints.

Using a swellable polymer paper, if the results look good, will improve
the permanence of dye inks, but they are more vulnerable to fingerprints
and dampness.


I usually use Kodak double sided semi gloss photo paper which seem to
look
ok, though its just 7 ml it says on the front of the Kodak package.What
company makes swellable polymer paper? I find that Staples are the only
place near me in Toronto to buy photo paper and its quite expensive, and
they don't seem to have an awful lot of variety. Just basic. They don't
even
have the double sided semi gloss I like, though they used to stock it
but
now just have it in their catalog. I got some a couple of weeks ago in
Shoppers, though thats all they had in the way of photo paper. They
don't
usually stock any. I like the semi gloss photo paper I have, but its
become
hard to find, and I don't think its a regular item in Shoppers.


Depending upon the ink set, Canon dye inks rate between about 2 years to
25 years. Most current Canon inkset are toward the mid high range.


Would Staples compatible cartridges be similar?

Mary


Art


Mary wrote:


"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:lhUri.21055$fJ5.7959@pd7urf1no...


OK, now that I know the printer model I can comment further.

Your printer has 5 cartridges. The large black one is for text and is
used exclusively for that purpose. That is a pigment ink

The other four cartridges are all dye ink and used for images. They
are
Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and the smaller of the two Black (dye or photo

type).


The reason for this is that pigment ink provides a sharper and denser
black with plain paper, and may even dry faster. It also is quite
fade
resistant, and often is waterproof once dry.


Does that mean the photos I sometimes print will fade after a while?
how
long will they last before fading? I didn't put them in an album but

keep

them together in a dark area in my closet. I have too many to put in an
album and some of them I have printed and sent to family members and
friends. I printed them on Kodak double sided, semi gloss paper and
they
seem to look quite good. I mainly have printed indoor photos of people
mostly with flash rather than outside photos. Do indoor photos show

fading

quicker than outside photos?



However, this ink doesn't integrate well with the color dye inks. It
sits on the surface of the paper, while dye inks penetrate the paper
more. Since the characteristics differ between dye inks and a pigment
ink, and particularly black inks which have a lot of pigment in them,
they don't merge well and would look odd in an image. Therefore, for
anything involving colored inks, your printer will use the dye black
ink
in that application, but continue to use the pigment black ink in text
only applications.

The nature of the head and dot size is often also different between
dye
ink and pigment inks.


I like the Canon IP 4000 printer. It prints nicely, but because it uses

dye

inks, will it print indoor photos that will last for years?

Mary



Art

Mary wrote:



"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:k3jri.17750$rX4.198@pd7urf2no...



You didn't mention which printer you are using. That would help in
determine what's what. Some printers have one slot for black for

which

you can either use a larger of smaller black cartridge, and both
might
be the identical type of ink.


Sorry,I should have been more clear. I have a Canon IP 4000. My
printer

has


two black slots. One for a fat black cartridge and one for a thin
black
cartridge plus 3 colour cartridges - yellow, magenta and cyan.




Some printers use all pigment inks both black and color, some use
all
dye, and no pigment inks. Does your printer use 5 cartridges all
installed at once?


I don't know what kind of ink they have. All cartridges have to be

installed


and have ink in them for the printer to work.

Mary

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:j2bti.29821$_d2.11792@pd7urf3no...
There should be an address on the ink cartridges and an email or
website. Contact the appropriate offices and ask. If you can't get an
answer from them, and no one has done testing that is published (likely
the case) then you are left deciding for yourself what the saving is
worth versus other alternatives.

Art,
I checked the ink cartridge. I don't see any address there. Just a phone
number which is Staples Customer service where you order Staples items from
the catalog.On the cartridge box it says The Business Depot in Markham,
Ontario. (probably old boxes). As you probably know, Staples bought them
out. On the other side of the box it says "made in Germany, with components
from France, Switzerland and the Netherlands. I wonder why it needs to
involve 4 countries just for cartridge ink. On the same side it also says
"Business Depot" and "Staples/Business Depot" brand cartridges are not
affiliated with Canon." and " Canon BCI and BJC are registered trade marks
of Canon Kabushiki. Canon has not sponsored or approved this
Staples/Business Depot cartridge. Model numbers of Canon are identified for
compatibility purposes only". The usual legal stuff I guess.
I'm a bit confused here. Didn't you say that the photopaper can also make a
difference how fade resistant photos will be
rather than the type of ink?

Thanks.

Mary


Art

Mary wrote:

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:myEsi.27118$rX4.13306@pd7urf2no...

Hi Mary,

I honestly have no opinion about Staples ink. I believe Staples bought
Korectype and with that, ended up with those inks being used in Staples
ink refill cartridges.


Is Korectype dye based and any good. I used Staples compatibles a lot
with
my Canon IP 1500 which I stil use occasionally, and continued with
Staples
when I got the IP 4000. Ordinary printing is fine, and photo printing
seems
to be ok and like I said, I mostly print indoor photos with flas of
family,
relatives, etc.not all that often, but when I do, I print quite a few
photos
to send to them. I've always thought that digital cameras are much
better
suited to sending jpgs in the mail, than printing stills though I like
my
digital camera.


I am a believer in asking retailers and distributors to answer these
types of question from clients. I would ask them how you can find out
how fade resistance their inks are relative to OEM or whatever, they may
refer you to the company that actually does that filling?.


The only people I see when I go to Staples is the sales clerks, and they
wouldn't know anything about that. In fact, in the area of computers, I
usually know more than they do. And in the area of inks or photo paper
they
wouldn't know. They don't get training about inks and I would doubt the
Manager would know.

Mary

"Mary" wrote in message ...

I'm a bit confused here. Didn't you say that the photopaper can also make
a
difference how fade resistant photos will be rather than the type of ink?

Yes, both the paper and ink make a large difference in the fade resistance.
See http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/...r_Nov_2002.pdf and
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/...r_Nov_2002.pdf for
examples of variations or 50x in some cases with different papers.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

"Mary" wrote in message ...

Thank you for the information. I looked at some of the information on the
link you provided above, but some of the information on the tables stating
different brands of printers is hard to figure out, such as under the
column
"Display Permanence reading" - some figures are 38, others are 8 for that
column, but I don't know what the numbers mean.

The table shows the number of years for a photo printed with a particular
printer and paper combination to show "years before noticable fading and/or
changes in color balance occur" for photos stored under glass. As you can
see there is considerable difference depending on the paper used.
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ist/...2007_03_HW.pdf is more recent
and shows even more dramatic results. [This is for 4x6 photo printers, but
the results should be similar with full size photo printers using the same
ink and paper combinations.]

The article mentions its
better to follow the manufacturers suggestions for paper and ink, but I
suppose one would have to test various papers. So far, I have tried Canon
semi gloss, 10ml which turned out nice -colors are very bright), and I
have
been using Kodak Semi gloss double sides which is only 7 ml, but has been
ok
for some of my printing though maybe 7 ml is not too good for photo to
last
for years.

The overall thickness of the paper does not have much effect on longevity.
The important factor is the formulation of the coating which varies widely
by manufacturer.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

I was hoping to provide you and others with some background to better
place the information into context. Each paper technology has
advantages and disadvantages, depending upon what is more important for
the print out. Perhaps the explanations can provide a guide to
determine which technology is better for your specific needs.

Microporous are quick drying, often waterproof, somewhat more durable
than most swellable polymer. Swellable Polymer are slower drying and a
bit more vulnerable to damage, not waterproof but allow for a longer
fade resistance.

Swellable polymer can't be used with pigment inks, in fact some
Swellable polymer paper won't produce good results with certain dye inks
either, you have to test.

Art


Mary wrote:

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:TZati.30979$fJ5.24778@pd7urf1no...

Kodak has changed their paper technology many times over the last few
years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak can
probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus microporous.

In general, swellable polymer technology is not waterproof. The ink
will soak off the surface with a bit of hot water, because the polymer
remains water soluble.


Thank you for the information Art. You obviously know a lot about it, but it
seems complicated to me.

Mary



To give you a bit more detail:

Microporous paper surfaces usually have a ceramic or plastic surface
which has microscopic holes which allow the ink to pass through. The
surface under it is usually a clay coating called kaolin which is the
same material in white porcelain and a mordant which is designed to lock
the ink into place in this material. Once the ink is dry, it tends to be
set in the lower layer, and the ink remains relatively waterproof.
However, since the surface if full of holes, energized ink molecules
(from UV light, or other chemical sources) can escape through those
holes, and do (thus the ink colors fade).

Swellable polymer is a coating of complex long chain tangled molecules.
Gelatin, egg white, and some soluble synthetic chemicals all are these
types of materials. When the ink hits these materials the liquid makes
the polymer swell which opens up some of the tangles and makes space,
where the ink colors fits. Then, the coating dries, and locks the
colorant into these tangled molecules, sealing them in.

The only major problem with this method is that the paper is slower
drying and may be vulnerable to damage when it leaves the printer.
Even when dry, the surface tends to be softer and more easily damaged
mechanically , and finally, it remains water soluble, so dampness and
fingerprints may damage it, and the ink may wash out of wet.

In general, you can determine a swellable polymer paper by wetting some
that is printed (it will ruin the print, so use scrap or a failed image)
and see if the surface becomes sticky, or even washes off in the water
the ink begins to run. You may be able to tell by wetting a finger and
touching a corner of a non-print area and see if it gets quite sticky.
If so, it is probably swellable polymer.

Art

Yes, the paper and the ink work together to determine how fade resistant
the print will be, particularly with dye inks.

Pigment inks are fairly fade resistant on their own, regardless of the
paper they are on. Of course, as mentioned they don't print well on
swellable polymer papers in most cases.

On the other hand, dye inks can benefit from the paper type. It can
make a substantial difference, over doubling the fade resistance with
the right combination.

Art


Mary wrote:

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:j2bti.29821$_d2.11792@pd7urf3no...

There should be an address on the ink cartridges and an email or
website. Contact the appropriate offices and ask. If you can't get an
answer from them, and no one has done testing that is published (likely
the case) then you are left deciding for yourself what the saving is
worth versus other alternatives.


Art,
I checked the ink cartridge. I don't see any address there. Just a phone
number which is Staples Customer service where you order Staples items from
the catalog.On the cartridge box it says The Business Depot in Markham,
Ontario. (probably old boxes). As you probably know, Staples bought them
out. On the other side of the box it says "made in Germany, with components
from France, Switzerland and the Netherlands. I wonder why it needs to
involve 4 countries just for cartridge ink. On the same side it also says
"Business Depot" and "Staples/Business Depot" brand cartridges are not
affiliated with Canon." and " Canon BCI and BJC are registered trade marks
of Canon Kabushiki. Canon has not sponsored or approved this
Staples/Business Depot cartridge. Model numbers of Canon are identified for
compatibility purposes only". The usual legal stuff I guess.
I'm a bit confused here. Didn't you say that the photopaper can also make a
difference how fade resistant photos will be
rather than the type of ink?

Thanks.

Mary



Art

Mary wrote:


"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:myEsi.27118$rX4.13306@pd7urf2no...


Hi Mary,

I honestly have no opinion about Staples ink. I believe Staples bought
Korectype and with that, ended up with those inks being used in Staples
ink refill cartridges.


Is Korectype dye based and any good. I used Staples compatibles a lot

with

my Canon IP 1500 which I stil use occasionally, and continued with

Staples

when I got the IP 4000. Ordinary printing is fine, and photo printing

seems

to be ok and like I said, I mostly print indoor photos with flas of

family,

relatives, etc.not all that often, but when I do, I print quite a few

photos

to send to them. I've always thought that digital cameras are much

better

suited to sending jpgs in the mail, than printing stills though I like

my

digital camera.



I am a believer in asking retailers and distributors to answer these
types of question from clients. I would ask them how you can find out
how fade resistance their inks are relative to OEM or whatever, they may
refer you to the company that actually does that filling?.


The only people I see when I go to Staples is the sales clerks, and they
wouldn't know anything about that. In fact, in the area of computers, I
usually know more than they do. And in the area of inks or photo paper

they

wouldn't know. They don't get training about inks and I would doubt the
Manager would know.

Mary

"Bob Headrick" wrote in message
...
"Mary" wrote in message ...

I'm a bit confused here. Didn't you say that the photopaper can also
make
a
difference how fade resistant photos will be rather than the type of
ink?

Yes, both the paper and ink make a large difference in the fade
resistance.
See http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/...r_Nov_2002.pdf
and
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/...r_Nov_2002.pdf for
examples of variations or 50x in some cases with different papers.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

Thank you for the information. I looked at some of the information on the
link you provided above, but some of the information on the tables stating
different brands of printers is hard to figure out, such as under the column
"Display Permanence reading" - some figures are 38, others are 8 for that
column, but I don't know what the numbers mean. The article mentions its
better to follow the manufacturers suggestions for paper and ink, but I
suppose one would have to test various papers. So far, I have tried Canon
semi gloss, 10ml which turned out nice -colors are very bright), and I have
been using Kodak Semi gloss double sides which is only 7 ml, but has been ok
for some of my printing though maybe 7 ml is not too good for photo to last
for years. For indoor photos with flash its been ok too, but with some of
them, I don't want them to fade for a long time, so mostly they are the ones
I am concerned about. Also, I guess the thickness of the photo paper is
important.

Mary

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:cLjti.31647$fJ5.888@pd7urf1no...
Yes, the paper and the ink work together to determine how fade resistant
the print will be, particularly with dye inks.

Pigment inks are fairly fade resistant on their own, regardless of the
paper they are on. Of course, as mentioned they don't print well on
swellable polymer papers in most cases.

On the other hand, dye inks can benefit from the paper type. It can
make a substantial difference, over doubling the fade resistance with
the right combination.

My main concern is the photos I take indoors mostly with flash of relatives
at Christmas and other times of the year. I want them to last for many years
and hope they don't fade for many years. I've been using Kodak double sided
semi gloss which seems to be ok (I don't like high gloss photos very much).
Its only 7 ml thick though. Does that make a difference with fading or how
long the photos will still look the same as when they were first printed?
Thanks.

Mary




"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:j2bti.29821$_d2.11792@pd7urf3no...

There should be an address on the ink cartridges and an email or
website. Contact the appropriate offices and ask. If you can't get an
answer from them, and no one has done testing that is published (likely
the case) then you are left deciding for yourself what the saving is
worth versus other alternatives.


Art,
I checked the ink cartridge. I don't see any address there. Just a phone
number which is Staples Customer service where you order Staples items
from
the catalog.On the cartridge box it says The Business Depot in Markham,
Ontario. (probably old boxes). As you probably know, Staples bought them
out. On the other side of the box it says "made in Germany, with
components
from France, Switzerland and the Netherlands. I wonder why it needs to
involve 4 countries just for cartridge ink. On the same side it also
says
"Business Depot" and "Staples/Business Depot" brand cartridges are not
affiliated with Canon." and " Canon BCI and BJC are registered trade
marks
of Canon Kabushiki. Canon has not sponsored or approved this
Staples/Business Depot cartridge. Model numbers of Canon are identified
for
compatibility purposes only". The usual legal stuff I guess.
I'm a bit confused here. Didn't you say that the photopaper can also
make a
difference how fade resistant photos will be
rather than the type of ink?

Thanks.

Mary



Art

Mary wrote:


"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:myEsi.27118$rX4.13306@pd7urf2no...


Hi Mary,

I honestly have no opinion about Staples ink. I believe Staples
bought
Korectype and with that, ended up with those inks being used in
Staples
ink refill cartridges.


Is Korectype dye based and any good. I used Staples compatibles a lot

with

my Canon IP 1500 which I stil use occasionally, and continued with

Staples

when I got the IP 4000. Ordinary printing is fine, and photo printing

seems

to be ok and like I said, I mostly print indoor photos with flas of

family,

relatives, etc.not all that often, but when I do, I print quite a few

photos

to send to them. I've always thought that digital cameras are much

better

suited to sending jpgs in the mail, than printing stills though I like

my

digital camera.



I am a believer in asking retailers and distributors to answer these
types of question from clients. I would ask them how you can find out
how fade resistance their inks are relative to OEM or whatever, they
may
refer you to the company that actually does that filling?.


The only people I see when I go to Staples is the sales clerks, and
they
wouldn't know anything about that. In fact, in the area of computers, I
usually know more than they do. And in the area of inks or photo paper

they

wouldn't know. They don't get training about inks and I would doubt the
Manager would know.

Mary