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isolating new clone drive for 1st bootup



 
 
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  #71  
Old February 26th 04, 09:04 PM
Rod Speed
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"Timothy Daniels" wrote in message ...

"Rod Speed" wrote:
Timothy Daniels reported:
Timothy Daniels asked


BTW, does is matter a whit if there are 2 devices
(e.g. HDs) on a cable and the device jumpered "Master"
is at the mid connector and the device jumpered "Slave"
were at the end connector? I have been assuming that
there is no difference other than which device will default
to being the boot device. Is that correct?


Yes, it apparently is. I've just done some experimenting
with switching 2 HDs on the same IDE cable between
being Master and Slave, and it doesn't affect the cloning,
nor does it affect boot capability. But it does affect the
default BIOS boot sequence. For 2 HDs on the same
cable, the default BIOS boot sequence has the Master
HD at a higher priority than the Slave HD. So unless one
adjusts the BIOS boot sequence, the Master HD will
boot (if it's bootable).


Thats just whether its master or slave, not which connector is used.


Yes, that's what I said


Thats not what the original said.

- the default boot sequence for devices on the
same ribbon cable has the device jumpered as
Master at a boot priority higher than that for
the Slave, regardless of location on the cable.


The default is irrelevant. What matters is what
has been specified before the clone op was done
and what the bios does when the specified boot
drive goes missing when the power is removed
from it, what it replaces that boot drive with.

That is, if the two devices are bootable, the one
jumpered as Master will be booted unless the
BIOS's boot sequence is manually altered.


Not necessarily in the situation being discussed, where
you have specified to boot off one of the drives, done
the clone, and then depowered the originally specified
boot drive. It isnt as black and white as that on what
the bios will choose to boot from in THAT situation.

And its all irrelevant anyway if you're just making clones
for backup because you would normally have the original
specified as the boot drive and would normally depower
the clone after the clone has been made, so the system
will continue to boot off the original boot drive regardless
of whether it was master or slave.


  #72  
Old February 26th 04, 10:51 PM
Timothy Daniels
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"chrisv" answered:
"Timothy Daniels" wrote:
What was "the point you were making"?


From my first post to this thread:

"Having un-powered electronics connected to your
bus is generally a sure-fire way to drag the bus
down to nothing."



But the bus doesn't get dragged down to nothing.
I even reported such a test in my posting early today
(Feb 26), where I specifically disconnected *just the
power cable* from one HD and booted successfully from
the other HD on the same ribbon cable. Obviously, the
bus was not dragged down to nothing. Try it yourself.

*TimDaniels*
  #73  
Old February 27th 04, 01:13 AM
kony
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On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:51:56 -0800, "Timothy Daniels"
wrote:

"chrisv" answered:
"Timothy Daniels" wrote:
What was "the point you were making"?


From my first post to this thread:

"Having un-powered electronics connected to your
bus is generally a sure-fire way to drag the bus
down to nothing."



But the bus doesn't get dragged down to nothing.
I even reported such a test in my posting early today
(Feb 26), where I specifically disconnected *just the
power cable* from one HD and booted successfully from
the other HD on the same ribbon cable. Obviously, the
bus was not dragged down to nothing. Try it yourself.

*TimDaniels*


You used a PCI controller card, right?
Not necessarily the same as (any other situation, hardware). I have at
least one PATA PCI controller that expressly allows hot-plugging drives...
has a Silicon Image 680 chip, IIRC. Do you know of any motherboard
controllers that expressly allow this? Maybe there are some that i'm
unaware of.

I do vaguely recall forgetting to plug in the power cord to drives in the
past, and it did cause a problem. Unfortuately I don't recall any of the
specifics at the moment, so many parts and so little time.........
  #74  
Old February 27th 04, 01:57 AM
Eric Gisin
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"Timothy Daniels" wrote in message
...

From my first post to this thread:

"Having un-powered electronics connected to your
bus is generally a sure-fire way to drag the bus
down to nothing."


So how can this not be the case for SCSI? Same tri-state drivers as IDE.

But the bus doesn't get dragged down to nothing.
I even reported such a test in my posting early today
(Feb 26), where I specifically disconnected *just the
power cable* from one HD and booted successfully from
the other HD on the same ribbon cable. Obviously, the
bus was not dragged down to nothing. Try it yourself.

My experience with any ATA-4+ drives.

  #75  
Old February 27th 04, 03:04 AM
Timothy Daniels
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"kony" wrote:
"Timothy Daniels" wrote:

But the bus doesn't get dragged down to nothing.
I even reported such a test in my posting early today
(Feb 26), where I specifically disconnected *just the
power cable* from one HD and booted successfully from
the other HD on the same ribbon cable. Obviously, the
bus was not dragged down to nothing. Try it yourself.


You used a PCI controller card, right?


Yes.


Not necessarily the same as (any other situation, hardware).
I have at least one PATA PCI controller that expressly
allows hot-plugging drives... has a Silicon Image 680 chip, IIRC.
Do you know of any motherboard controllers that expressly
allow this? Maybe there are some that i'm unaware of.



Do you realize that this thread is not about hot-plugging?
This branch now concerns the effect of having an unpowered
device and a powered device on the same data cable - not
about de-powering one of the devices while the system is
powered up, nor about powering up a device while the system
is running.


I do vaguely recall forgetting to plug in the power cord to
drives in the past, and it did cause a problem. Unfortuately
I don't recall any of the specifics at the moment, so many
parts and so little time.........



Details are easily overlooked and assumptions take on the
mantle of truth. If you have 2 bootable HDs, give it a try.
Put them both on the same 3 connector data cable, one with
a power cable, the other without a power cable. Then start up.
The PC should boot from the "live" HD.

*TimDaniels*
  #76  
Old February 27th 04, 04:40 AM
Bob
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Rod Speed wrote:
:
:"Bob" wrote in message ...
: Rod Speed wrote:
: :
: :Bob wrote in
: :message ...
: :
: : I will soon be using Drive Image to clone the hard drive that my XP
: : SP1A (NTFS) system boots from, on to a new drive. I also have other
: : hard drives in my system used as data storage (non-bootable). I've
: : cloned lots of boot drives before, but this will be my first one under
: : XP SP1A.
: :
: : My past practice had me always swapping both the power and IDE cables
: : from the source (the drive I just cloned) drive over to the new drive
: : after the clone finished and before the first boot of the new drive.
: :
: : Question: Is this practice still OK?
: :
: :Yep. The only thing thats different with the NT/2K/XP family
: :is that its important that the original and the clone boot drive
: :arent visible to the OS on the first boot after the clone has been
: :made. Thats fine after the first boot, just the first boot matters.
:
: Thanks. Just to be sure I'm clear on this...it's OK if the clone
: boot drive (the new one just made) is seen by the OS, correct?
:
:Yes, thats the usual way to upgrade the boot drive to a bigger drive.
:
: Just don't let the OS see BOTH the clone AND
: the original drives at the same time, right?
:
:Correct. And that is JUST for the first boot after the clone.
:Once its booted off the clone, and asked for and been
:given another boot for what it sees as new hardware, you
:can THEN put the original drive back in the system and do
:whatever you like formatting it to use it for data storage etc

Just finished cloning my WD 80GB WD800JB drive over to my new Hitachi
(IBM) 160GB 7K250 (PATA) using Drive Image 2002. Booted off the DI CD
and after resizing a few source partitions to take advantage of the
increased space available, it was on it's way and done in under 45
minutes. As suggested and as I already suspected should work, I
disconnected the source drive completely before rebooting. XP loaded
no problem and detected the new drive, I rebooted again and it seems to
be working great.

The Hitachi/IBM 7K250 is noticeably faster than the WD, which is a fine
drive in it's own right, IMHO.

After a week or so to be sure the new drive is stable, I'll format and
repartition the WD drive and put it back in the system and be available
for my digital audio projects.

Thanks everyone, for your assistance!
Bob
  #77  
Old February 27th 04, 06:59 AM
Rod Speed
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"Bob" wrote in message ...
Rod Speed wrote:
:
:"Bob" wrote in message ...
: Rod Speed wrote:
: :
: :Bob wrote in
: :message ...
: :
: : I will soon be using Drive Image to clone the hard drive that my XP
: : SP1A (NTFS) system boots from, on to a new drive. I also have other
: : hard drives in my system used as data storage (non-bootable). I've
: : cloned lots of boot drives before, but this will be my first one under
: : XP SP1A.
: :
: : My past practice had me always swapping both the power and IDE cables
: : from the source (the drive I just cloned) drive over to the new drive
: : after the clone finished and before the first boot of the new drive.
: :
: : Question: Is this practice still OK?
: :
: :Yep. The only thing thats different with the NT/2K/XP family
: :is that its important that the original and the clone boot drive
: :arent visible to the OS on the first boot after the clone has been
: :made. Thats fine after the first boot, just the first boot matters.
:
: Thanks. Just to be sure I'm clear on this...it's OK if the clone
: boot drive (the new one just made) is seen by the OS, correct?
:
:Yes, thats the usual way to upgrade the boot drive to a bigger drive.
:
: Just don't let the OS see BOTH the clone AND
: the original drives at the same time, right?
:
:Correct. And that is JUST for the first boot after the clone.
:Once its booted off the clone, and asked for and been
:given another boot for what it sees as new hardware, you
:can THEN put the original drive back in the system and do
:whatever you like formatting it to use it for data storage etc

Just finished cloning my WD 80GB WD800JB drive over to my new Hitachi
(IBM) 160GB 7K250 (PATA) using Drive Image 2002. Booted off the DI CD
and after resizing a few source partitions to take advantage of the
increased space available, it was on it's way and done in under 45
minutes. As suggested and as I already suspected should work, I
disconnected the source drive completely before rebooting. XP loaded
no problem and detected the new drive, I rebooted again and it seems to
be working great.


Yeah, its surprisingly effortless as long as you disconnect
the source drive for the first boot after the clone.

The Hitachi/IBM 7K250 is noticeably faster than the
WD, which is a fine drive in it's own right, IMHO.


Yeah, my only real objection to Hitachi now
is that they wont cross ship on an RMA.

Thats the most convenient approach with a drive that
hasnt died completely, both for the cloning from the failing
drive and convenient to be able to use the packaging
that the replacement arrives in to send the dud back.

After a week or so to be sure the new drive is stable,
I'll format and repartition the WD drive and put it back in
the system and be available for my digital audio projects.


Yeah, I always do that too, give it a bit of time
to be sure the new drive isnt going to die early.

Thanks everyone, for your assistance!


No problem, thats what these tech groups are for,
being able to ask very specific questions about the
detail that isnt clear without having the hassle of
trying it and ending up with fang marks in your bum |-)


  #78  
Old February 27th 04, 05:01 PM
chrisv
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"Eric Gisin" wrote:

dizzy wrote:

From my first post to this thread:

"Having un-powered electronics connected to your
bus is generally a sure-fire way to drag the bus
down to nothing."


So how can this not be the case for SCSI? Same tri-state drivers as IDE.


Good thing I qualified my statement with "generally". 8)

Do they use the same transceiver IC's? I've learned that some of the
new-tech IC's, designed for hot-swap/live-insertion, are indeed
designed to avoid loading-down the bus, even if they are unpowered.

I'll nit-pick your post and point-out that "tri-state" only applies to
power-on behavior (for the lay people: it means the pin can be put
into a high-impedance state, so it won't affect whatever it's attached
to). The power-off behavior is a different thing, defined with the
spec I(off), a spec you'll only find in these new-tech parts.

Here's an interesting application note I found:

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-5047.pdf

Note the recommended order of signal connection on page 2.

1. Ground Pins: Discharge path for any built up charge on the card.

2. I/O Data Pins: With no power the pins are high impedance,
minimizing loading on the live bus.

3. Vcc Pins: Last pin to assert for highest level of isolation.

Learn something new every day, I guess. 8)

  #79  
Old February 27th 04, 07:22 PM
kony
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On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:04:50 -0800, "Timothy Daniels"
wrote:


Not necessarily the same as (any other situation, hardware).
I have at least one PATA PCI controller that expressly
allows hot-plugging drives... has a Silicon Image 680 chip, IIRC.
Do you know of any motherboard controllers that expressly
allow this? Maybe there are some that i'm unaware of.



Do you realize that this thread is not about hot-plugging?


LOL, you don't say?

This branch now concerns the effect of having an unpowered
device and a powered device on the same data cable - not
about de-powering one of the devices while the system is
powered up, nor about powering up a device while the system
is running.


Do you realize that the two topics might be related, with regard to the
capabilities, design of the controller?



I do vaguely recall forgetting to plug in the power cord to
drives in the past, and it did cause a problem. Unfortuately
I don't recall any of the specifics at the moment, so many
parts and so little time.........



Details are easily overlooked and assumptions take on the
mantle of truth. If you have 2 bootable HDs, give it a try.
Put them both on the same 3 connector data cable, one with
a power cable, the other without a power cable. Then start up.
The PC should boot from the "live" HD.



You are jumping to a conclusion. You have insufficent evidence to
conclude that "the PC should boot...". You have a sample size of one,
and that controller isn't employed on "most" PCs.

You may be right, that it will work more often than not or even *almost*
always, but not based on any valid logic or experience/testing, yet.

I may try it myself someday, but at the moment it's not high on the list
of priorities, because I don't feel it's prudent to hook up switches for
power supply on drives as a backup/emergency strategy.

Aww, what the hell....... OK, on a testbed system here, has an Asus
A7S333 board in it, Sis 745 chipset. It has a Maxtor D740X 60GB boot
drive, primary slave, and a Maxtor Plus 9 80GB Primary Master drive....
actually they were running from aforementioned RAID card with a couple of
other drives, but for this test, they're together as master/slave on same
channel running from the Sis southbridge IDE controller.

Configured as I mentioned, the system does boot from the 60GB drive if the
80GB is unplugged from the power but not IDE cable. So, now we have TWO
instances of it working, but still insufficient evidence to conclude that,
in general, "it should boot".
  #80  
Old February 27th 04, 09:10 PM
Timothy Daniels
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"kony" wrote:
Aww, what the hell....... OK, on a testbed system here, has an Asus
A7S333 board in it, Sis 745 chipset. It has a Maxtor D740X 60GB
boot drive, primary slave, and a Maxtor Plus 9 80GB Primary Master
drive.... actually they were running from aforementioned RAID card
with a couple of other drives, but for this test, they're together as
master/slave on same channel running from the Sis southbridge IDE
controller.

Configured as I mentioned, the system does boot from the 60GB drive
if the 80GB is unplugged from the power but not IDE cable. So, now
we have TWO instances of it working, but still insufficient evidence to
conclude that, in general, "it should boot".



Thanks for the data point. Do I hear THREE? :-)

*TimDaniels*
 




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