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#11
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Tired of hot processor on P9X79
The saga continues:
When I built a new computer around an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo back in 2007, I acquired a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V which I assumed would meet my needs forever because as we all know, computer components never get outdated. And then when I built a new system around an Asus P9X79, I found my good old PS continued to meet my needs. And now I've added a Kraken X61 to the mix, along with a Silverstone USB 3.0 internal card, and at first all seemed well. But then I decided that with all this extra cooling capacity, maybe it was time to see what my P9X79 could do if I overclocked it. So then I installed the Asus AI Suite II and told it to overclock things as it best saw fit. And then I started getting occasional voltage warnings in the lower right corner of my screen. Seldom the same warnings -- sometimes voltage 5.0 something, sometimes 3.something ... like this: https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy https://goo.gl/iGE3IK Well that's no good, so I told AI Suite II to stop doing what it was doing, and after a few scary reboots in which the system told me overclocking had failed and I needed to go into BIOS and do something without explaining exactly what I should do, things seemed to get back to normal. But no...still, occasionally, I get a warning like the one above, even though I think I've reset BIOS to the way it was before AI II and the Kraken installation. Every suggestion I've Googled ends up saying my PS is no good. My wonderful PC Power and Cooling power supply from 2007? That power supply is no good? Just because I've recently hung some new fans, a pump, and a USB 3.0 card off it? My faithful PS has finally met its match? Really? I actually need a power supply better than the one I have? You think? -- Bill Anderson I am the Mighty Favog |
#12
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Tired of hot processor on P9X79
Bill Anderson wrote:
The saga continues: When I built a new computer around an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo back in 2007, I acquired a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V which I assumed would meet my needs forever because as we all know, computer components never get outdated. And then when I built a new system around an Asus P9X79, I found my good old PS continued to meet my needs. And now I've added a Kraken X61 to the mix, along with a Silverstone USB 3.0 internal card, and at first all seemed well. But then I decided that with all this extra cooling capacity, maybe it was time to see what my P9X79 could do if I overclocked it. So then I installed the Asus AI Suite II and told it to overclock things as it best saw fit. And then I started getting occasional voltage warnings in the lower right corner of my screen. Seldom the same warnings -- sometimes voltage 5.0 something, sometimes 3.something ... like this: https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy https://goo.gl/iGE3IK Well that's no good, so I told AI Suite II to stop doing what it was doing, and after a few scary reboots in which the system told me overclocking had failed and I needed to go into BIOS and do something without explaining exactly what I should do, things seemed to get back to normal. But no...still, occasionally, I get a warning like the one above, even though I think I've reset BIOS to the way it was before AI II and the Kraken installation. Every suggestion I've Googled ends up saying my PS is no good. My wonderful PC Power and Cooling power supply from 2007? That power supply is no good? Just because I've recently hung some new fans, a pump, and a USB 3.0 card off it? My faithful PS has finally met its match? Really? I actually need a power supply better than the one I have? You think? It's a strange design, in that it is an early 80+ product, yet it has a generous 3.3V and 5V rail on it. 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...703-005-04.jpg Current generation 80+ products, use two stage conversion. The main supply is 12V. Then, it is followed by a small 12VDC to 3.3V/5V board. And those typically give 3.3V at 20A and 5V at 20A. And the combined rating is usually barely sufficient to allow one of those two rails to be fully loaded (100W to 150W combined). The low rails on yours is rated 170W combined. And the spec plate makes it look like a single output supply. (Even though, for safety reasons, there may be a 20A limit on subsections of the 12V loom. Maybe 12V1 and 12V2 have 20amp limiters, and whatever it has for PCI Express 2x3 or 2x4 would be on a separate limiter. It isn't a good idea to let loose a 50A max current flow, on spindly 20 gauge wire. From a spec perspective, the supply doesn't hint at being a lightweight. ******* There was a time, when you couldn't trust Asus Probe. But the design of these things has changed a bit. At some point, the scale factors for the measurement circuits was put into a BIOS table. Which should reduce the coding errors when it comes to scaling readings from the hardware monitor. You could always use a multimeter, to check the rail voltages and see how much they're in error. The 3.3V should be accessible on a SATA power connector. That's if you don't want to go after the ATX main connector. I would drop into the computer store, get an extender cable for SATA power of some sort, cut the 3.3V wire, and make a measurement there. Being careful to not leave that exposed wire out where it can do harm. I think the SATA on my supply, has the full five wire harness and so 3.3V is on there. When you use Molex to SATA converters, one thing you don't get that way, is any 3.3V signal (as that's not on the Molex). Could the pump be too much for the thing ? Maybe. But if Asus Probe is sounding those errors when the machine isn't at 100% load, then you'd better give it a thorough examination. In terms of test gear now, I have my voltmeter ($20 type), I have a clamp-on DC ammeter ($300 when I got it), and the Kill-a-Watt meter (maybe $40CDN when I got it last month). The clamp-on ammeter is particularly nice, in that as long as the main power bundle is physically accessible, you can check current flow on each rail (place all four wires of one color, into the jaws of the meter at the same time). The meter can sum the magnetic field around all four wires, and give you a total DC amps for that rail. You can then go off and check the SATA or IDE Molex cable current flows, total it all up, and see if it exceeds the spec rating of the supply. I didn't do that on my last build. When I burned myself on the VCore regulator, I did get out the clamp-on meter to check the ATX12V current flow (12V @ 13A). But I was more focused on getting the VCore cooling there in good shape, than doing a complete characterization. Since you're getting alarms on 3.3V and 5V, that suggests a two stage regulator, and a small DC board for the low rails. Yet the spec rating is so generous, the specs suggests one large transformer runs everything, and the voltages are kept in step via the turns ratio of the transformer. If anything, on a unified ATX, if the 12V was feeling the strain, the feedback would turn up the primary, and all three rails would rise. Since the 12V is loaded, it comes in just at spec, while the 3.3V and 5V in such a case, would be on the high side. This is called "cross load regulation", the ability to stay within the ATX spec limits, when ever there is a skewed load on the main outputs. On supplies where actual separate circuits are used for each rail (just a few of those were made), the cross load is down around 1%. Because without a unified transformer, there is no cross loading to speak of. And on the two regulator designs, there really shouldn't be a classic cross load behavior to speak of either. The 3.3V and 5V could affect one another (load 5V, 3.3V pops up). But the 12V and 3.3V/5V board, shouldn't correlate in terms of "voltage shift direction". ******* Just get your multimeter out, and check it :-) I wouldn't ignore the warning entirely, especially if it's something easy to fix. ******* It's a bit difficult to get specs for Kraken x61. I tried the manufacturer web site but couldn't find what I wanted. This review article picture, shows at least one spec is on the side of the box. The pump is 12V @ 0.325A. The fans don't have specs, but I'm going to pretend the two fans draw 0.3A each. So the whole kit is around 12V @ 1A. That should be like a flea sitting on your power rails. The only bad thing about motors, is back EMF into the rails (load ripple), which might be a problem if the supply was really lightly loaded. http://media.bestofmicro.com/C/T/438...l/DSCN0340.JPG I'm going to have to blame a phase of the moon for this one... I don't see a reason for a change in behavior. Paul |
#13
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Tired of hot processor on P9X79
On 3/29/2016 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote: The saga continues: When I built a new computer around an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo back in 2007, I acquired a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V which I assumed would meet my needs forever because as we all know, computer components never get outdated. And then when I built a new system around an Asus P9X79, I found my good old PS continued to meet my needs. And now I've added a Kraken X61 to the mix, along with a Silverstone USB 3.0 internal card, and at first all seemed well. But then I decided that with all this extra cooling capacity, maybe it was time to see what my P9X79 could do if I overclocked it. So then I installed the Asus AI Suite II and told it to overclock things as it best saw fit. And then I started getting occasional voltage warnings in the lower right corner of my screen. Seldom the same warnings -- sometimes voltage 5.0 something, sometimes 3.something ... like this: https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy https://goo.gl/iGE3IK Well that's no good, so I told AI Suite II to stop doing what it was doing, and after a few scary reboots in which the system told me overclocking had failed and I needed to go into BIOS and do something without explaining exactly what I should do, things seemed to get back to normal. But no...still, occasionally, I get a warning like the one above, even though I think I've reset BIOS to the way it was before AI II and the Kraken installation. Every suggestion I've Googled ends up saying my PS is no good. My wonderful PC Power and Cooling power supply from 2007? That power supply is no good? Just because I've recently hung some new fans, a pump, and a USB 3.0 card off it? My faithful PS has finally met its match? Really? I actually need a power supply better than the one I have? You think? It's a strange design, in that it is an early 80+ product, yet it has a generous 3.3V and 5V rail on it. 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...703-005-04.jpg Current generation 80+ products, use two stage conversion. The main supply is 12V. Then, it is followed by a small 12VDC to 3.3V/5V board. And those typically give 3.3V at 20A and 5V at 20A. And the combined rating is usually barely sufficient to allow one of those two rails to be fully loaded (100W to 150W combined). The low rails on yours is rated 170W combined. And the spec plate makes it look like a single output supply. (Even though, for safety reasons, there may be a 20A limit on subsections of the 12V loom. Maybe 12V1 and 12V2 have 20amp limiters, and whatever it has for PCI Express 2x3 or 2x4 would be on a separate limiter. It isn't a good idea to let loose a 50A max current flow, on spindly 20 gauge wire. From a spec perspective, the supply doesn't hint at being a lightweight. ******* There was a time, when you couldn't trust Asus Probe. But the design of these things has changed a bit. At some point, the scale factors for the measurement circuits was put into a BIOS table. Which should reduce the coding errors when it comes to scaling readings from the hardware monitor. You could always use a multimeter, to check the rail voltages and see how much they're in error. The 3.3V should be accessible on a SATA power connector. That's if you don't want to go after the ATX main connector. I would drop into the computer store, get an extender cable for SATA power of some sort, cut the 3.3V wire, and make a measurement there. Being careful to not leave that exposed wire out where it can do harm. I think the SATA on my supply, has the full five wire harness and so 3.3V is on there. When you use Molex to SATA converters, one thing you don't get that way, is any 3.3V signal (as that's not on the Molex). Could the pump be too much for the thing ? Maybe. But if Asus Probe is sounding those errors when the machine isn't at 100% load, then you'd better give it a thorough examination. In terms of test gear now, I have my voltmeter ($20 type), I have a clamp-on DC ammeter ($300 when I got it), and the Kill-a-Watt meter (maybe $40CDN when I got it last month). The clamp-on ammeter is particularly nice, in that as long as the main power bundle is physically accessible, you can check current flow on each rail (place all four wires of one color, into the jaws of the meter at the same time). The meter can sum the magnetic field around all four wires, and give you a total DC amps for that rail. You can then go off and check the SATA or IDE Molex cable current flows, total it all up, and see if it exceeds the spec rating of the supply. I didn't do that on my last build. When I burned myself on the VCore regulator, I did get out the clamp-on meter to check the ATX12V current flow (12V @ 13A). But I was more focused on getting the VCore cooling there in good shape, than doing a complete characterization. Since you're getting alarms on 3.3V and 5V, that suggests a two stage regulator, and a small DC board for the low rails. Yet the spec rating is so generous, the specs suggests one large transformer runs everything, and the voltages are kept in step via the turns ratio of the transformer. If anything, on a unified ATX, if the 12V was feeling the strain, the feedback would turn up the primary, and all three rails would rise. Since the 12V is loaded, it comes in just at spec, while the 3.3V and 5V in such a case, would be on the high side. This is called "cross load regulation", the ability to stay within the ATX spec limits, when ever there is a skewed load on the main outputs. On supplies where actual separate circuits are used for each rail (just a few of those were made), the cross load is down around 1%. Because without a unified transformer, there is no cross loading to speak of. And on the two regulator designs, there really shouldn't be a classic cross load behavior to speak of either. The 3.3V and 5V could affect one another (load 5V, 3.3V pops up). But the 12V and 3.3V/5V board, shouldn't correlate in terms of "voltage shift direction". ******* Just get your multimeter out, and check it :-) I wouldn't ignore the warning entirely, especially if it's something easy to fix. ******* It's a bit difficult to get specs for Kraken x61. I tried the manufacturer web site but couldn't find what I wanted. This review article picture, shows at least one spec is on the side of the box. The pump is 12V @ 0.325A. The fans don't have specs, but I'm going to pretend the two fans draw 0.3A each. So the whole kit is around 12V @ 1A. That should be like a flea sitting on your power rails. The only bad thing about motors, is back EMF into the rails (load ripple), which might be a problem if the supply was really lightly loaded. http://media.bestofmicro.com/C/T/438...l/DSCN0340.JPG I'm going to have to blame a phase of the moon for this one... I don't see a reason for a change in behavior. Thanks, Paul. With your comments in mind I began to wonder if the problem wasn't the old PS after all. So this morning after reading your post I dug into BIOS again (BIOS v. 4608 x64, 12/24/2013) and did find one setting (CPU VCCSA Voltage) that seemed "off," so I adjusted it to a level that didn't have its reading displayed in hot pink. (Changed it from 1.300 to 1.295, and the display's color turned to normal yellow.) I also tried to reset the AI Overclock Timer from Manual back to Auto, which I am certain was where I found it yesterday when I began thinking about overclocking. I actually changed it myself from Auto to Manual just to look at options. But now, if I set it to Auto, the system won't boot; just throws me into BIOS again and again until I set it back to Manual. Weird. Except for reducing the CPU VCCSA Voltage by one step, I've made no manual changes to BIOS settings. So ... as I was starting to say ... this morning I got into BIOS and tried to make everything as standard as possible -- no changes except for that AI Overclocking Tuner which now must be Manual -- rebooted, and once again ran the Asus AI Suite II auto-overclock routine, which has enthusiastically informed I now should see a 30% improvement in performance, or something. (Whatever it is, I'm sure it's now 30% better.) And this time around I'm seeing no problems with voltage notifications. Well, I haven't seen one all of today, anyway, as my system has remained stable. So thanks for the reassurance. I think. We shall see.... -- Bill Anderson I am the Mighty Favog |
#14
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Tired of hot processor on P9X79
On 3/29/2016 4:49 AM, Paul wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote: The saga continues: When I built a new computer around an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo back in 2007, I acquired a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V which I assumed would meet my needs forever because as we all know, computer components never get outdated. And then when I built a new system around an Asus P9X79, I found my good old PS continued to meet my needs. And now I've added a Kraken X61 to the mix, along with a Silverstone USB 3.0 internal card, and at first all seemed well. But then I decided that with all this extra cooling capacity, maybe it was time to see what my P9X79 could do if I overclocked it. So then I installed the Asus AI Suite II and told it to overclock things as it best saw fit. And then I started getting occasional voltage warnings in the lower right corner of my screen. Seldom the same warnings -- sometimes voltage 5.0 something, sometimes 3.something ... like this: https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy https://goo.gl/iGE3IK Well that's no good, so I told AI Suite II to stop doing what it was doing, and after a few scary reboots in which the system told me overclocking had failed and I needed to go into BIOS and do something without explaining exactly what I should do, things seemed to get back to normal. But no...still, occasionally, I get a warning like the one above, even though I think I've reset BIOS to the way it was before AI II and the Kraken installation. Every suggestion I've Googled ends up saying my PS is no good. My wonderful PC Power and Cooling power supply from 2007? That power supply is no good? Just because I've recently hung some new fans, a pump, and a USB 3.0 card off it? My faithful PS has finally met its match? Really? I actually need a power supply better than the one I have? You think? It's a strange design, in that it is an early 80+ product, yet it has a generous 3.3V and 5V rail on it. 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...703-005-04.jpg Current generation 80+ products, use two stage conversion. The main supply is 12V. Then, it is followed by a small 12VDC to 3.3V/5V board. And those typically give 3.3V at 20A and 5V at 20A. And the combined rating is usually barely sufficient to allow one of those two rails to be fully loaded (100W to 150W combined). The low rails on yours is rated 170W combined. And the spec plate makes it look like a single output supply. (Even though, for safety reasons, there may be a 20A limit on subsections of the 12V loom. Maybe 12V1 and 12V2 have 20amp limiters, and whatever it has for PCI Express 2x3 or 2x4 would be on a separate limiter. It isn't a good idea to let loose a 50A max current flow, on spindly 20 gauge wire. From a spec perspective, the supply doesn't hint at being a lightweight. ******* There was a time, when you couldn't trust Asus Probe. But the design of these things has changed a bit. At some point, the scale factors for the measurement circuits was put into a BIOS table. Which should reduce the coding errors when it comes to scaling readings from the hardware monitor. You could always use a multimeter, to check the rail voltages and see how much they're in error. The 3.3V should be accessible on a SATA power connector. That's if you don't want to go after the ATX main connector. I would drop into the computer store, get an extender cable for SATA power of some sort, cut the 3.3V wire, and make a measurement there. Being careful to not leave that exposed wire out where it can do harm. I think the SATA on my supply, has the full five wire harness and so 3.3V is on there. When you use Molex to SATA converters, one thing you don't get that way, is any 3.3V signal (as that's not on the Molex). Could the pump be too much for the thing ? Maybe. But if Asus Probe is sounding those errors when the machine isn't at 100% load, then you'd better give it a thorough examination. In terms of test gear now, I have my voltmeter ($20 type), I have a clamp-on DC ammeter ($300 when I got it), and the Kill-a-Watt meter (maybe $40CDN when I got it last month). The clamp-on ammeter is particularly nice, in that as long as the main power bundle is physically accessible, you can check current flow on each rail (place all four wires of one color, into the jaws of the meter at the same time). The meter can sum the magnetic field around all four wires, and give you a total DC amps for that rail. You can then go off and check the SATA or IDE Molex cable current flows, total it all up, and see if it exceeds the spec rating of the supply. I didn't do that on my last build. When I burned myself on the VCore regulator, I did get out the clamp-on meter to check the ATX12V current flow (12V @ 13A). But I was more focused on getting the VCore cooling there in good shape, than doing a complete characterization. Since you're getting alarms on 3.3V and 5V, that suggests a two stage regulator, and a small DC board for the low rails. Yet the spec rating is so generous, the specs suggests one large transformer runs everything, and the voltages are kept in step via the turns ratio of the transformer. If anything, on a unified ATX, if the 12V was feeling the strain, the feedback would turn up the primary, and all three rails would rise. Since the 12V is loaded, it comes in just at spec, while the 3.3V and 5V in such a case, would be on the high side. This is called "cross load regulation", the ability to stay within the ATX spec limits, when ever there is a skewed load on the main outputs. On supplies where actual separate circuits are used for each rail (just a few of those were made), the cross load is down around 1%. Because without a unified transformer, there is no cross loading to speak of. And on the two regulator designs, there really shouldn't be a classic cross load behavior to speak of either. The 3.3V and 5V could affect one another (load 5V, 3.3V pops up). But the 12V and 3.3V/5V board, shouldn't correlate in terms of "voltage shift direction". ******* Just get your multimeter out, and check it :-) I wouldn't ignore the warning entirely, especially if it's something easy to fix. ******* It's a bit difficult to get specs for Kraken x61. I tried the manufacturer web site but couldn't find what I wanted. This review article picture, shows at least one spec is on the side of the box. The pump is 12V @ 0.325A. The fans don't have specs, but I'm going to pretend the two fans draw 0.3A each. So the whole kit is around 12V @ 1A. That should be like a flea sitting on your power rails. The only bad thing about motors, is back EMF into the rails (load ripple), which might be a problem if the supply was really lightly loaded. http://media.bestofmicro.com/C/T/438...l/DSCN0340.JPG I'm going to have to blame a phase of the moon for this one... I don't see a reason for a change in behavior. Paul I may be about to figure this out. I can't yet be 100% certain, but I think the problem is the Asus AI Suite II software which I have installed to run in the background. Just now I was looking at a notification that my motherboard's temperature was one degree below zero, centigrade (not Celsius!). Same kind of warning I've been seeing -- sliding in from the bottom right of the screen. Unlike the usual notifications, though, this one stayed put and gave me time to track down where it was coming from. And that, it turns out, was the Asus AI Suite II. I even managed to bring up the Suite along with another monitoring program, CPUID HWMonitor, to compare. And here's what I saw: https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy https://goo.gl/Trrz7x Note in the log display that just as the temperature of the P9X79 mbo plummeted to below freezing, there was apparently a hiccup in voltage. I've been through the AI Suite II log and I've found numerous reports of drops or jumps in voltage, and of course the times correspond to notifications I've been seeing. The CPUID HWMonitor, though, seems to be noticing nothing amiss. I think I know how to fix this. Uninstall the Asus AI Suite II. It's got to be at fault, as I keep getting error messages regarding inoperative fans and voltage fluctuations and temperature drops, but I notice nothing amiss with computer performance. Does that not make sense? -- Bill Anderson I am the Mighty Favog |
#15
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Tired of hot processor on P9X79
Bill Anderson wrote:
On 3/29/2016 4:49 AM, Paul wrote: Bill Anderson wrote: The saga continues: When I built a new computer around an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo back in 2007, I acquired a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V which I assumed would meet my needs forever because as we all know, computer components never get outdated. And then when I built a new system around an Asus P9X79, I found my good old PS continued to meet my needs. And now I've added a Kraken X61 to the mix, along with a Silverstone USB 3.0 internal card, and at first all seemed well. But then I decided that with all this extra cooling capacity, maybe it was time to see what my P9X79 could do if I overclocked it. So then I installed the Asus AI Suite II and told it to overclock things as it best saw fit. And then I started getting occasional voltage warnings in the lower right corner of my screen. Seldom the same warnings -- sometimes voltage 5.0 something, sometimes 3.something ... like this: https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy https://goo.gl/iGE3IK Well that's no good, so I told AI Suite II to stop doing what it was doing, and after a few scary reboots in which the system told me overclocking had failed and I needed to go into BIOS and do something without explaining exactly what I should do, things seemed to get back to normal. But no...still, occasionally, I get a warning like the one above, even though I think I've reset BIOS to the way it was before AI II and the Kraken installation. Every suggestion I've Googled ends up saying my PS is no good. My wonderful PC Power and Cooling power supply from 2007? That power supply is no good? Just because I've recently hung some new fans, a pump, and a USB 3.0 card off it? My faithful PS has finally met its match? Really? I actually need a power supply better than the one I have? You think? It's a strange design, in that it is an early 80+ product, yet it has a generous 3.3V and 5V rail on it. 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...703-005-04.jpg Current generation 80+ products, use two stage conversion. The main supply is 12V. Then, it is followed by a small 12VDC to 3.3V/5V board. And those typically give 3.3V at 20A and 5V at 20A. And the combined rating is usually barely sufficient to allow one of those two rails to be fully loaded (100W to 150W combined). The low rails on yours is rated 170W combined. And the spec plate makes it look like a single output supply. (Even though, for safety reasons, there may be a 20A limit on subsections of the 12V loom. Maybe 12V1 and 12V2 have 20amp limiters, and whatever it has for PCI Express 2x3 or 2x4 would be on a separate limiter. It isn't a good idea to let loose a 50A max current flow, on spindly 20 gauge wire. From a spec perspective, the supply doesn't hint at being a lightweight. ******* There was a time, when you couldn't trust Asus Probe. But the design of these things has changed a bit. At some point, the scale factors for the measurement circuits was put into a BIOS table. Which should reduce the coding errors when it comes to scaling readings from the hardware monitor. You could always use a multimeter, to check the rail voltages and see how much they're in error. The 3.3V should be accessible on a SATA power connector. That's if you don't want to go after the ATX main connector. I would drop into the computer store, get an extender cable for SATA power of some sort, cut the 3.3V wire, and make a measurement there. Being careful to not leave that exposed wire out where it can do harm. I think the SATA on my supply, has the full five wire harness and so 3.3V is on there. When you use Molex to SATA converters, one thing you don't get that way, is any 3.3V signal (as that's not on the Molex). Could the pump be too much for the thing ? Maybe. But if Asus Probe is sounding those errors when the machine isn't at 100% load, then you'd better give it a thorough examination. In terms of test gear now, I have my voltmeter ($20 type), I have a clamp-on DC ammeter ($300 when I got it), and the Kill-a-Watt meter (maybe $40CDN when I got it last month). The clamp-on ammeter is particularly nice, in that as long as the main power bundle is physically accessible, you can check current flow on each rail (place all four wires of one color, into the jaws of the meter at the same time). The meter can sum the magnetic field around all four wires, and give you a total DC amps for that rail. You can then go off and check the SATA or IDE Molex cable current flows, total it all up, and see if it exceeds the spec rating of the supply. I didn't do that on my last build. When I burned myself on the VCore regulator, I did get out the clamp-on meter to check the ATX12V current flow (12V @ 13A). But I was more focused on getting the VCore cooling there in good shape, than doing a complete characterization. Since you're getting alarms on 3.3V and 5V, that suggests a two stage regulator, and a small DC board for the low rails. Yet the spec rating is so generous, the specs suggests one large transformer runs everything, and the voltages are kept in step via the turns ratio of the transformer. If anything, on a unified ATX, if the 12V was feeling the strain, the feedback would turn up the primary, and all three rails would rise. Since the 12V is loaded, it comes in just at spec, while the 3.3V and 5V in such a case, would be on the high side. This is called "cross load regulation", the ability to stay within the ATX spec limits, when ever there is a skewed load on the main outputs. On supplies where actual separate circuits are used for each rail (just a few of those were made), the cross load is down around 1%. Because without a unified transformer, there is no cross loading to speak of. And on the two regulator designs, there really shouldn't be a classic cross load behavior to speak of either. The 3.3V and 5V could affect one another (load 5V, 3.3V pops up). But the 12V and 3.3V/5V board, shouldn't correlate in terms of "voltage shift direction". ******* Just get your multimeter out, and check it :-) I wouldn't ignore the warning entirely, especially if it's something easy to fix. ******* It's a bit difficult to get specs for Kraken x61. I tried the manufacturer web site but couldn't find what I wanted. This review article picture, shows at least one spec is on the side of the box. The pump is 12V @ 0.325A. The fans don't have specs, but I'm going to pretend the two fans draw 0.3A each. So the whole kit is around 12V @ 1A. That should be like a flea sitting on your power rails. The only bad thing about motors, is back EMF into the rails (load ripple), which might be a problem if the supply was really lightly loaded. http://media.bestofmicro.com/C/T/438...l/DSCN0340.JPG I'm going to have to blame a phase of the moon for this one... I don't see a reason for a change in behavior. Paul I may be about to figure this out. I can't yet be 100% certain, but I think the problem is the Asus AI Suite II software which I have installed to run in the background. Just now I was looking at a notification that my motherboard's temperature was one degree below zero, centigrade (not Celsius!). Same kind of warning I've been seeing -- sliding in from the bottom right of the screen. Unlike the usual notifications, though, this one stayed put and gave me time to track down where it was coming from. And that, it turns out, was the Asus AI Suite II. I even managed to bring up the Suite along with another monitoring program, CPUID HWMonitor, to compare. And here's what I saw: https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy https://goo.gl/Trrz7x Note in the log display that just as the temperature of the P9X79 mbo plummeted to below freezing, there was apparently a hiccup in voltage. I've been through the AI Suite II log and I've found numerous reports of drops or jumps in voltage, and of course the times correspond to notifications I've been seeing. The CPUID HWMonitor, though, seems to be noticing nothing amiss. I think I know how to fix this. Uninstall the Asus AI Suite II. It's got to be at fault, as I keep getting error messages regarding inoperative fans and voltage fluctuations and temperature drops, but I notice nothing amiss with computer performance. Does that not make sense? There used to be a problem, back in the era when the Hardware Monitor sat on the SMBUS. SMBUS did not support atomic transactions. You could have two hardware monitor programs running, and one could corrupt a bus cycle the other one was doing. Leading to "goofy voltage readings". But the modern hardware monitor interface should be connected to LPC bus (nibble wide databus, 33Mhz clock). The LPC bus is atomic. Once a transfer starts, it has to finish before another program can get in there and use it. I would have to run Speedfan, and look at the startup log of detected hardware monitors, to understand if there is an issue there (connected to wrong bus). Only old hardware should have a problem like this. ******* A completely separate issue, is how the OS can abuse things. On Windows 10, it appears Microsoft has "taken over" SMART disk status. As my utility no longer gets sane readings, and the OS appears to be managing SMART. And I don't think it had to interfere with things, to do the implementation either. They should have been able to have two pieces of software, read out the SMART status at will, without any issue. The design implied they may be writing commands to SMART or something. It's either that, or a security issue. And if it was a security issue of bus access, my SMART program should just "bomb" with a bus error or something. Instead, my SMART program just reads out apparent garbage. And I don't think this is a BIOS or hardware issue. As for temps and voltages, as far as I know, you can still read those out. If LPC connected, you should be able to run multiple programs. Only time they might conflict, is if you changed the fan divider in mid-flight, and the other program didn't "do the math" properly to compensate. But if the two programs aren't interfering with the configuration, they should both be able to read out OK. Paul |
#16
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Tired of hot processor on P9X79
On 4/1/2016 1:47 AM, Paul wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote: On 3/29/2016 4:49 AM, Paul wrote: Bill Anderson wrote: The saga continues: When I built a new computer around an Asus P5Q Pro Turbo back in 2007, I acquired a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V which I assumed would meet my needs forever because as we all know, computer components never get outdated. And then when I built a new system around an Asus P9X79, I found my good old PS continued to meet my needs. And now I've added a Kraken X61 to the mix, along with a Silverstone USB 3.0 internal card, and at first all seemed well. But then I decided that with all this extra cooling capacity, maybe it was time to see what my P9X79 could do if I overclocked it. So then I installed the Asus AI Suite II and told it to overclock things as it best saw fit. And then I started getting occasional voltage warnings in the lower right corner of my screen. Seldom the same warnings -- sometimes voltage 5.0 something, sometimes 3.something ... like this: https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy https://goo.gl/iGE3IK Well that's no good, so I told AI Suite II to stop doing what it was doing, and after a few scary reboots in which the system told me overclocking had failed and I needed to go into BIOS and do something without explaining exactly what I should do, things seemed to get back to normal. But no...still, occasionally, I get a warning like the one above, even though I think I've reset BIOS to the way it was before AI II and the Kraken installation. Every suggestion I've Googled ends up saying my PS is no good. My wonderful PC Power and Cooling power supply from 2007? That power supply is no good? Just because I've recently hung some new fans, a pump, and a USB 3.0 card off it? My faithful PS has finally met its match? Really? I actually need a power supply better than the one I have? You think? It's a strange design, in that it is an early 80+ product, yet it has a generous 3.3V and 5V rail on it. 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggIma...703-005-04.jpg Current generation 80+ products, use two stage conversion. The main supply is 12V. Then, it is followed by a small 12VDC to 3.3V/5V board. And those typically give 3.3V at 20A and 5V at 20A. And the combined rating is usually barely sufficient to allow one of those two rails to be fully loaded (100W to 150W combined). The low rails on yours is rated 170W combined. And the spec plate makes it look like a single output supply. (Even though, for safety reasons, there may be a 20A limit on subsections of the 12V loom. Maybe 12V1 and 12V2 have 20amp limiters, and whatever it has for PCI Express 2x3 or 2x4 would be on a separate limiter. It isn't a good idea to let loose a 50A max current flow, on spindly 20 gauge wire. From a spec perspective, the supply doesn't hint at being a lightweight. ******* There was a time, when you couldn't trust Asus Probe. But the design of these things has changed a bit. At some point, the scale factors for the measurement circuits was put into a BIOS table. Which should reduce the coding errors when it comes to scaling readings from the hardware monitor. You could always use a multimeter, to check the rail voltages and see how much they're in error. The 3.3V should be accessible on a SATA power connector. That's if you don't want to go after the ATX main connector. I would drop into the computer store, get an extender cable for SATA power of some sort, cut the 3.3V wire, and make a measurement there. Being careful to not leave that exposed wire out where it can do harm. I think the SATA on my supply, has the full five wire harness and so 3.3V is on there. When you use Molex to SATA converters, one thing you don't get that way, is any 3.3V signal (as that's not on the Molex). Could the pump be too much for the thing ? Maybe. But if Asus Probe is sounding those errors when the machine isn't at 100% load, then you'd better give it a thorough examination. In terms of test gear now, I have my voltmeter ($20 type), I have a clamp-on DC ammeter ($300 when I got it), and the Kill-a-Watt meter (maybe $40CDN when I got it last month). The clamp-on ammeter is particularly nice, in that as long as the main power bundle is physically accessible, you can check current flow on each rail (place all four wires of one color, into the jaws of the meter at the same time). The meter can sum the magnetic field around all four wires, and give you a total DC amps for that rail. You can then go off and check the SATA or IDE Molex cable current flows, total it all up, and see if it exceeds the spec rating of the supply. I didn't do that on my last build. When I burned myself on the VCore regulator, I did get out the clamp-on meter to check the ATX12V current flow (12V @ 13A). But I was more focused on getting the VCore cooling there in good shape, than doing a complete characterization. Since you're getting alarms on 3.3V and 5V, that suggests a two stage regulator, and a small DC board for the low rails. Yet the spec rating is so generous, the specs suggests one large transformer runs everything, and the voltages are kept in step via the turns ratio of the transformer. If anything, on a unified ATX, if the 12V was feeling the strain, the feedback would turn up the primary, and all three rails would rise. Since the 12V is loaded, it comes in just at spec, while the 3.3V and 5V in such a case, would be on the high side. This is called "cross load regulation", the ability to stay within the ATX spec limits, when ever there is a skewed load on the main outputs. On supplies where actual separate circuits are used for each rail (just a few of those were made), the cross load is down around 1%. Because without a unified transformer, there is no cross loading to speak of. And on the two regulator designs, there really shouldn't be a classic cross load behavior to speak of either. The 3.3V and 5V could affect one another (load 5V, 3.3V pops up). But the 12V and 3.3V/5V board, shouldn't correlate in terms of "voltage shift direction". ******* Just get your multimeter out, and check it :-) I wouldn't ignore the warning entirely, especially if it's something easy to fix. ******* It's a bit difficult to get specs for Kraken x61. I tried the manufacturer web site but couldn't find what I wanted. This review article picture, shows at least one spec is on the side of the box. The pump is 12V @ 0.325A. The fans don't have specs, but I'm going to pretend the two fans draw 0.3A each. So the whole kit is around 12V @ 1A. That should be like a flea sitting on your power rails. The only bad thing about motors, is back EMF into the rails (load ripple), which might be a problem if the supply was really lightly loaded. http://media.bestofmicro.com/C/T/438...l/DSCN0340.JPG I'm going to have to blame a phase of the moon for this one... I don't see a reason for a change in behavior. Paul I may be about to figure this out. I can't yet be 100% certain, but I think the problem is the Asus AI Suite II software which I have installed to run in the background. Just now I was looking at a notification that my motherboard's temperature was one degree below zero, centigrade (not Celsius!). Same kind of warning I've been seeing -- sliding in from the bottom right of the screen. Unlike the usual notifications, though, this one stayed put and gave me time to track down where it was coming from. And that, it turns out, was the Asus AI Suite II. I even managed to bring up the Suite along with another monitoring program, CPUID HWMonitor, to compare. And here's what I saw: https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/sh...hare_link_copy https://goo.gl/Trrz7x Note in the log display that just as the temperature of the P9X79 mbo plummeted to below freezing, there was apparently a hiccup in voltage. I've been through the AI Suite II log and I've found numerous reports of drops or jumps in voltage, and of course the times correspond to notifications I've been seeing. The CPUID HWMonitor, though, seems to be noticing nothing amiss. I think I know how to fix this. Uninstall the Asus AI Suite II. It's got to be at fault, as I keep getting error messages regarding inoperative fans and voltage fluctuations and temperature drops, but I notice nothing amiss with computer performance. Does that not make sense? There used to be a problem, back in the era when the Hardware Monitor sat on the SMBUS. SMBUS did not support atomic transactions. You could have two hardware monitor programs running, and one could corrupt a bus cycle the other one was doing. Leading to "goofy voltage readings". But the modern hardware monitor interface should be connected to LPC bus (nibble wide databus, 33Mhz clock). The LPC bus is atomic. Once a transfer starts, it has to finish before another program can get in there and use it. I would have to run Speedfan, and look at the startup log of detected hardware monitors, to understand if there is an issue there (connected to wrong bus). Only old hardware should have a problem like this. ******* A completely separate issue, is how the OS can abuse things. On Windows 10, it appears Microsoft has "taken over" SMART disk status. As my utility no longer gets sane readings, and the OS appears to be managing SMART. And I don't think it had to interfere with things, to do the implementation either. They should have been able to have two pieces of software, read out the SMART status at will, without any issue. The design implied they may be writing commands to SMART or something. It's either that, or a security issue. And if it was a security issue of bus access, my SMART program should just "bomb" with a bus error or something. Instead, my SMART program just reads out apparent garbage. And I don't think this is a BIOS or hardware issue. As for temps and voltages, as far as I know, you can still read those out. If LPC connected, you should be able to run multiple programs. Only time they might conflict, is if you changed the fan divider in mid-flight, and the other program didn't "do the math" properly to compensate. But if the two programs aren't interfering with the configuration, they should both be able to read out OK. Paul I just realized this morning that I have achieved Nirvana. Everything on my computer -- all applications, Win10, system monitors -- everything -- is working at this moment just as I want. UserBenchmark.exe declares that as a desktop my computer has reached 92% of perfection, a "nuclear submarine" ranking. My temps are under control by the CAM software that accompanied my Kraken cpu cooler, my cpu is overclocked by 38% in BIOS using the Asus Suite II, which I've since disabled because it's otherwise buggy, my four indispensable gadgets are working, the system blazes through video editing tasks without high temp complaints, and, and...I just can't think of anything else to improve on perfection. (OK, UserBenchmark says my video card isn't up to handling the latest 3D games, but I don't play 3D games, so who cares? And I have it all backed up! I've been tinkering with my system for so many days now that I'm not sure what I'll do with the rest of the morning. I may have to go outside for a walk in the fresh air. Holy moly. Thanks, Paul, for your kind and patient assistance as I've worked through all this. I'll probably be back in a few days after my Asus P9X79 mbo fries itself from all the overclocking. But until then...success! -- Bill Anderson I am the Mighty Favog |
#17
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Tired of hot processor on P9X79
On 4/2/2016 11:27 AM, Bill Anderson wrote:
Thanks, Paul, for your kind and patient assistance as I've worked through all this. I'll probably be back in a few days after my Asus P9X79 mbo fries itself from all the overclocking. But until then...success! Actually it was only until 10:00 tonight when my system totally shut down with no warning and required cycling the PS to get things going again. No more overclocking to nuclear sub for me. Back to being a powerful but dependable battleship. -- Bill Anderson I am the Mighty Favog |
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