XP OEM - Interesting conversation with MS employee

Ron Martell wrote:
"kurttrail" wrote:



Is it immoral to lie to a criminal, a conman, or to someone or
something that lie to you first? While two wrongs don't equal a
right, sometimes one needs to think outside of the box to protect
themselves from being abused by disreputable devices of others.

The essential component for any agreement is that both parties must be
satisfied that the other person has both the ability and the intent to
fulfill whatever obligations and requirements they commit to as part
of the agreement.

LOL! Then get people to agree to it prior to the sale!

And with OEM software, MS has no real obligations, as support is left up
to the OEM.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
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"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
Life is full of grey if you think you can avoid it you live in an
imaginary land.

Life is only full of Gray to those that want it to be full of Gray. In
many cases, if you remove emotion and religion (which is emotion) it's
more B/W than you would think. Good business managers can see
through/around the gray and see the real color of things.


Life is only Black and White to those who are fascists.

And Business Managers see only one color and only if they are goood a
what they do. Red.

--
Peace!
Kurt
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microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
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"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
You personally guarantee that any product we buy will be
bound by terms posted somewhere OTHER than the product
itself, terms that aren't available at the point of sale?

No, YOU are responsible for your own actions and agreements. Just
because you might be too ignorant to read/learn, it's not a valid
excuse for not knowing. The information is fully available, easy to
find, and the information you need to start the learning process is
presented to you BEFORE you purchase (if you can read).


Actually contract law does make allowances for those that are incapable
of understanding a contract.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

On Wed, 11 May 2005 10:41:47 GMT, Leythos wrote:


Either they lied or not, and either they are good to their word or not,
and any other interpretation is a subjective measure of their integrity.

Precisely. Without any reference to motive, purpose or end result you
have reduced the question of honesty to one of mere mechanical
consistency of behavior. One could argue that Hitler was more
consistently honest then, say, Churchill, (I don't know one way or the
other) but so what? What significance does that have in telling us
anything about the character of the two men. My computer never lies to
me either (errors but never lies) but we attach no significance to
that fact. Only individual people are moral agents and posses the
ability to hold and assert ethical and moral values.

Perhaps one could apply strictly objective (without reference to
values, ethics or morals) measures to the question of honesty and
integrity but any conclusions from such measures would be largely
empty of meaning and significance within a human society.

It's not very neat and tidy but then neither is life.

On Thu, 12 May 2005 00:32:09 GMT, Leythos wrote:

But, who is to say what is right and what is wrong - after all, the
majority determine right/wrong in any society and that could mean what
is right in one is wrong in another while being right in the other.....
Kind of a catch-22 issue.

No. Societies determine social norms not what is right and wrong only
individuals can do that. 500 years ago some form of human slavery was
an accepted social norm in most societies. No one now would argue that
human slavery was ever right. A more trivial example.... in the United
States they drive on one side of the road in the UK on the other. No
one would argue that one society is right and the other not based on
what side of the road they drive on. It is just a mere arbitrary
social norm without any moral or ethical significance.

On Thu, 12 May 2005 01:25:35 GMT, Leythos wrote:


Truth and lies are not subjective when you know the difference.

That's true. But the mere fact that someone has or has not lied
without reference to anything else results in trivial conclusions
about that person that tell us very little about that persons
trustworthiness.

--



--

"kurttrail" wrote in message
...
Ron Martell wrote:
kony wrote:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:35:54 -0500, "Carey Frisch [MVP]"
wrote:

Q. "How does MS justify that cost; maybe takes a quarter to make
for them?"

A. Microsoft spent billions of $$$ to develop Windows XP. The
cost to manufacturer the CDs is irrelevant since they expect a
return on their massive investment. Also, ongoing
improvements to Windows XP, in the form of "Service Packs" and
"hotfixes", are absorbed by Microsoft and are offered free to
the consumer.


You must be joking.
Cost is relative.

Good. You can pay the bills then.

I could even on only a 20% profit margin.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"


I have run several different businesses over the last 30 years. The ones
that had a 20% gross profit margin eventually failed. It takes around 25% -
30% gross margin to break even for most businesses. You would have to be
incredibly efficient to survive on 20%. I can see where software development
may be different as there is less cost of sales, but a lot more salaries and
related expenses. This would skew the gross margins to look much greater
than what shows up on the bottom line. If you are talking 20% net profit
then that is after the bills are paid and would be every good return indeed
:-)

Kerry

In article ,
says...
Ron Martell wrote:
"kurttrail" wrote:



Is it immoral to lie to a criminal, a conman, or to someone or
something that lie to you first? While two wrongs don't equal a
right, sometimes one needs to think outside of the box to protect
themselves from being abused by disreputable devices of others.

The essential component for any agreement is that both parties must be
satisfied that the other person has both the ability and the intent to
fulfill whatever obligations and requirements they commit to as part
of the agreement.

LOL! Then get people to agree to it prior to the sale!

But 99% of the users still wouldn't read it, would not care, would still
be blissfully ignorant.

--
--

remove 999 in order to email me

In article ,
says...
Perhaps one could apply strictly objective (without reference to
values, ethics or morals) measures to the question of honesty and
integrity but any conclusions from such measures would be largely
empty of meaning and significance within a human society.

As was this thread - since it's entirely up to the individual as to what
they are willing to accept / do, nothing you or I say will change it or
make it right/wrong.

Even math is subjective in todays schools where a kid that scores a 99
on a test, with everyone else scoring a 20, causes a bell curve
situation that then increases the failing grade for the 20's to a C
which would be an 80+ score......

Then you've got the subjective laws where an Illegal Alien is given
legal coverage and rights, but when they mass in a protest they are not
arrested for being illegals - sort of subjective there too.

Everything is really black and white, Binary, but people tend to muddy
it up in order to "feel" better about things.

--
--

remove 999 in order to email me

Kerry Brown wrote:
"kurttrail" wrote in
message ...
Ron Martell wrote:
kony wrote:

On Wed, 11 May 2005 18:35:54 -0500, "Carey Frisch [MVP]"
wrote:

Q. "How does MS justify that cost; maybe takes a quarter to make
for them?"

A. Microsoft spent billions of $$$ to develop Windows XP. The
cost to manufacturer the CDs is irrelevant since they expect
a return on their massive investment. Also, ongoing
improvements to Windows XP, in the form of "Service Packs"
and "hotfixes", are absorbed by Microsoft and are offered
free to the consumer.


You must be joking.
Cost is relative.

Good. You can pay the bills then.

I could even on only a 20% profit margin.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"


I have run several different businesses over the last 30 years. The
ones that had a 20% gross profit margin eventually failed. It takes
around 25% - 30% gross margin to break even for most businesses. You
would have to be incredibly efficient to survive on 20%. I can see
where software development may be different as there is less cost of
sales, but a lot more salaries and related expenses. This would skew
the gross margins to look much greater than what shows up on the
bottom line. If you are talking 20% net profit then that is after the
bills are paid and would be every good return indeed :-)

Kerry

http://www.ananova.com/business/stor...1827.html?menu

"By comparison, German software giant SAP is forecasting an overall
profit margin of something over 21% for this year."

And the last time I looked SAP is doing just fine.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
Perhaps one could apply strictly objective (without reference to
values, ethics or morals) measures to the question of honesty and
integrity but any conclusions from such measures would be largely
empty of meaning and significance within a human society.

As was this thread - since it's entirely up to the individual as to
what they are willing to accept / do, nothing you or I say will
change it or make it right/wrong.

Even math is subjective in todays schools where a kid that scores a 99
on a test, with everyone else scoring a 20, causes a bell curve
situation that then increases the failing grade for the 20's to a C
which would be an 80+ score......

Then you've got the subjective laws where an Illegal Alien is given
legal coverage and rights, but when they mass in a protest they are
not arrested for being illegals - sort of subjective there too.

Everything is really black and white, Binary, but people tend to muddy
it up in order to "feel" better about things.

--

Everything is black and white when you are program to think that way.

Ethics is not mathamatics.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
Ron Martell wrote:
"kurttrail" wrote:



Is it immoral to lie to a criminal, a conman, or to someone or
something that lie to you first? While two wrongs don't equal a
right, sometimes one needs to think outside of the box to protect
themselves from being abused by disreputable devices of others.

The essential component for any agreement is that both parties must
be satisfied that the other person has both the ability and the
intent to fulfill whatever obligations and requirements they commit
to as part of the agreement.

LOL! Then get people to agree to it prior to the sale!

But 99% of the users still wouldn't read it, would not care, would
still be blissfully ignorant.

But then both parties get to agree or disagree before the sale.
Pressing a button to continue an installation only means that the person
is trying to use what was already SOLD to them.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"