Are mains surge protectors needed in the UK?

In message , Lem writes
Bernard Peek wrote:

I've been running multiple home PCs in the UK for around 15
years and have never had a problem with mains spikes, or ever
heard from anyone who has had a problem.

OTOH I've heard several reports of hardware losses in the US
caused by brownouts and spikes. The power distribution systems
aren't as well protected as in the UK, possibly because of the
greater average distance from substation to home, and poor
earthing policies.

I've discussed internal wiring systems with US techies, some
of them are installing domestic wiring using uninsulated
cables.


Uninsulated? What does that look like?

Bare wires passing through ceramic tubes in the floor joists. Apparently
this still meets the code in some states.



--
Bernard Peek
London, UK. DBA, Manager, Trainer & Author. Will work for money.

In message , Mike Tomlinson
writes
In article , Bernard Peek
writes

Bare wires passing through ceramic tubes in the floor joists. Apparently
this still meets the code in some states.

Referred to by the Shermans as "knob and tube" wiring. Though I thought
the wires were insulated.

I had a newsgroup conversation with someone who found bare wires,
apparently still permitted. It wouldn't surprise me to find that most
electricians installed insulated cables, just because something is
permitted it doesn't mean you have to do it.

Although I've seen a house previously owned by a plumber who had
installed the hot-water cylinder in front of the rising-main stopcock
and one previously owned by an electrician with a hard-wired UPS system
that blew up my PC power-supplies.



--
Bernard Peek
London, UK. DBA, Manager, Trainer & Author. Will work for money.

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:29:54 -0400, w_tom wrote:

[SNIP]

I have posted as professional papers and technical
application notes are posted. New information up front.
Background information and references at the end. I am not so
intolerant as to bring up the silly top post / bottom post
nonsense that only the emotional would do.

Yet w_tom you have repeatedly denied that events that really did take
place could have taken place. If you tell me that there is no way the
shorted out kettle flex caused the HD15 input to the 21" monitor to fail
then anything else you say is going to be seen as the ramblings of an
idiot. The monitor was working fine, the kettle flex shorted tripping the
RCD and MCD, causing everything to turn off. On reconnecting the power the
monitor was not working. Yet you persistently deny that it happened or
that it is even possible.


You reputation would be enhanced if you could even challenge
the post demonstrating wire impedance. You cannot. So
instead you again start this silly top post / bottom post
nonsense. Do you like it when someone attacks you as you
attack others - by questioning your character?

It is not nonsense.

JAB.

--
Jonathan A. Buzzard Email: jonathan (at) buzzard.me.uk
Northumberland, United Kingdom. Tel: +44 1661-832195

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:34:51 -0500, David Maynard wrote:

w_tom wrote:

One can convert a plug-in protector into a 'whole house'
protector. First cut down that 'too long' power cord. Then
increase the joules rating significantly to be equivalent to a
'whole house' protector. Then attach that plug-in protector
at the service entrance. Of course for the same money, one
gets a protector that has longer life expectancy (on the order
of up to 100 times longer because it is properly sized), is
designed for that location, is easier to install, and is
actually safety rated for that location - all for about the
same money as one or two overrated plug-in protectors.

Except that responsible 'whole house' protector manufacturers recommend
'plug in' protectors for sensitive equipment in addition to their protector.


In fact the British Standard has whole sections on this.

Given that 99% of all damage done by surges in the U.K. is down the
telephone wire and plug in surge protectors will provide
adequate protection in this instance, whole house protection is an
unnecessary expense to retro fit to a house. Something that w_tom fails to
understand, but fitting whole house protection to most U.K. properties
would cost in excess of 500GBP and more likely to be in the region of
1000GBP.

JAB.

--
Jonathan A. Buzzard Email: jonathan (at) buzzard.me.uk
Northumberland, United Kingdom. Tel: +44 1661-832195

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:32:52 -0500, David Maynard wrote:
[SNIP]

Suppose the same money was spent on a earthing a 'whole
house' protector.

Won't be 'the same money'.


I think we can figure on whole house protection starting at a minimum of
500GBP fitted and a plug in surge protector at under 20GBP.

JAB.

--
Jonathan A. Buzzard Email: jonathan (at) buzzard.me.uk
Northumberland, United Kingdom. Tel: +44 1661-832195

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:52:16 +0000, Bernard Peek wrote:

OTOH I've heard several reports of hardware losses in the US caused by
brownouts and spikes. The power distribution systems aren't as well
protected as in the UK, possibly because of the greater average distance
from substation to home, and poor earthing policies.


The problem in the USA is that they don't have substations. Every house
(or couple of houses) has a transformer up a pole that drops from around
5000~7000V to 110V. Most are poorly earthed and surge protected which is
where the problem lies.

In the UK we have substations providing 240V directly to hundreds of
houses. The transformers in these are very expensive bits of equipment and
are therefore well protected from surges and have comprehensive earth
grounding. Hence you rarely get damage from power surges in the U.K. and
when you do it is likely to be from some faulty equipment or wiring inside
the house.


JAB.

--
Jonathan A. Buzzard Email: jonathan (at) buzzard.me.uk
Northumberland, United Kingdom. Tel: +44 1661-832195

In article , nigel. carron nigel.carron@
buchanbroad.org.uk writes

My sister in \Cornwall (nr Helston) had a brownout) voltages of several
hundred volts over 230V apparently

um, a brownout is when the voltage falls below the permitted minimum.

Surge protectors would have almost certainly saved her the hassle..

I think she needed a UPS, not a surge protector

--
A. Top posters.
Q. What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

In article , w_tom
writes

This 'light' feature is so old in America that it was even
on surge protectors tested in PC Magazine in the 1980s. So
now you insult the US for importing Chinese 'junk'. Where in
that insult is a technical fact? How does that light work?

I've posted this before in another thread, but given that you have the
attention span of a mentally retarded goldfish, am not surprised that
you've already forgotten.

I assume you have basic understanding of electronics (though I'm not
counting on it, given your performance to date.) Here's the circuit
diagram and description of the plug-in surge protector I use:
http://jasper.org.uk/w_tom_is_a_******/cct.jpg

Quote:
"The protection VDRs in this circuit have a thermal disconnect which
breaks link LK1 when either VDR has reached the end of its life. Link
LK1 under normal operation is a short circuit but when opened due to the
thermal disconnect device, allows current to flow via the lamp LP1 and
the resistors R1 and R2, thus illuminating LP1."

See! This surge protector fails in a controlled manner and illuminates
a lamp, instead of exploding messily like the examples you cited in:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

Tell me, do you get circuit diagrams with /your/ protective devices?

So now Mike. Please enlighten us. How does that "warning
lamp to indicate when the protective devices have degraded"
work?

See above. If you can understand it, that is.

Feel free to top post or bottom post.

I'll do neither, thanks. I'll do it properly, quoting context and
posting in-line and snipping all unnecessary quoting. Something you'd
do well to emulate if you want to be taken seriously.

You seem to have so many personal insults that I think I
will keep the so many you have given me.

Feel free; you deserve them. Here's another: You're a gormless ****wit.

After all, you are
going to show us how smart you are. You are going to show us
how that light reports that MOVs have degraded.

Quite right. I've done that above. Thanks.

--
A. Top posters.
Q. What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

"Johannes H Andersen"
wrote in message
news:40EF3034.155B5126@sizefitterlikneasfuongtuint gsjadfasejk.com...


half_pint wrote:

"David Maynard" wrote in message
...
half_pint wrote:

How about using a plug with the correct sized fuse in it?

The proper fuse is always a good idea but fuses do not protect from
power
line faults. They blow after your 'protected' device is fried and
pulling
too much current as a result of it.

I am sorry but you are wrong. a correct sized fuse will always protect
you.

I am sorry you're wrong flap_paint. Semi conductor devices are blown by
excess Voltage. A fuse only senses the current.

And current=voltage/resiatance. Ohm's law. more voltage more current.


Your protected device will never be 'fried' if you use the correct fuse.
It is *impossible* unless the fuse is faulty.

Rubbish half_faint!

Nonsense Joanna.


The blow before the device draws enough current to be damaged, that is
how they are designed.

As said before, voltages also kills semiconductor devices. Why do you
think there are such things as electrostatic bags?

To protect semiconductors from static electricity as opposed to
mains electricity.

You will notice semiconductors are not shipped connected to
a surge protector. (unless you are the ultra cautious type).

"kony" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:42:25 +0100, "half_pint"
wrote:


"David Maynard" wrote in message
...
half_pint wrote:

How about using a plug with the correct sized fuse in it?

The proper fuse is always a good idea but fuses do not protect from
power
line faults. They blow after your 'protected' device is fried and
pulling
too much current as a result of it.

I am sorry but you are wrong. a correct sized fuse will always protect
you.

Your protected device will never be 'fried' if you use the correct fuse.
It is *impossible* unless the fuse is faulty.

The blow before the device draws enough current to be damaged, that is
how they are designed.


Another GUESS, eh?

Did you forget to consider that all computer power supplies have
a fuse, yet they can (are) still damaged? Suppose you 'd now
claim the engineers designing them don't know as well as you how
to select a fuse?

Probably. Its as good as a surge protector anyway, and GUESS what you
find in many (probably all?) surge protectors? You've guess it, a
30p fuse!!! (60c). [Prices correct at time of going to press].

A fuse is a failsafe for damaged or otherwise compromised
equipment, not a preventative measure.

Surge protectors are no better. they won't protect you from a
lightening strike anyway.
Also your power supply will protect you from minor power
surges.