Are mains surge protectors needed in the UK?

One can convert a plug-in protector into a 'whole house'
protector. First cut down that 'too long' power cord. Then
increase the joules rating significantly to be equivalent to a
'whole house' protector. Then attach that plug-in protector
at the service entrance. Of course for the same money, one
gets a protector that has longer life expectancy (on the order
of up to 100 times longer because it is properly sized), is
designed for that location, is easier to install, and is
actually safety rated for that location - all for about the
same money as one or two overrated plug-in protectors.

David Maynard wrote:
...
What w-tom fails to mention in his 'whole house' tirade is
that the 'whole house' protectors use essentially the same
protective devices as the 'plug in' protectors he so
derides, albeit of larger capacity. The reason 'plug-ins'
use smaller devices is because of the wiring, which all
'surge protectors' depend on to limit the current surge.
And because the 'plug-ins' are located at the computer end
of the wiring, there is more wiring resistance and, hence,
a lower surge current for them to deal with.

His claim that the devices in the 'plug-ins' degrades
applies equally to his own preferred protection scheme.
...

In article , David Maynard
writes

One of these days you need to take off the 'U.S. bigot' blinders.

I apologise for the comment, which was inappropriate. Having had a few
glasses of wine did not help.

I'm not a "US bigot" and in fact visit the States two or three times a
year. I still feel that the quality of electrical appliances in the
US, such as you'd buy in your local WalMart, is extremely poor compared
to their European equivalents. Perhaps it's a sign of the 'throwaway
society', where appliances are replaced rather than repaired (see
sci.electronics.repair)

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w_tom wrote:

So the plug-in protector is at something less than 13,000
volts when attempting to earth a trivial 100 amp transient.
"Poppycock", he says so that he need not deal with numbers he
does not understand.

I understand them just fine and apparently better than you who can't follow
a simple surge path.

In the meantime that less than 13,000
volts must go somewhere.

Just as it would go somewhere when there is no device to protect.

How convenient - that modem and
phone line is a perfect outgoing path. And so we have modem
damage because someone foolishly spent big bucks on a plug-in
protector. Someone hoped the protector would provide
protection that even its manufacturer does not claim.

No, the dufuss would be you who didn't plug the modem into the protector
even though I clearly said "all conductive paths in/out."

Suppose the same money was spent on a earthing a 'whole
house' protector.

Won't be 'the same money'.

Now we have a protected computer (not at
thousands of volts relative to earth) AND we have protected
all other 50 appliances also.

Except responsible manufacturers of 'whole house' protectors recommend a
'plug in' protector for sensitive equipment in addition to their own device.

Which should one believe. The person whose entire knowledge
of surge protection is limited to the word 'poppycock'.

And why should they believe someone who reverts to absurdities like that
statement?

Or
numbers based upon basic electrical principles.

No, your fantasy numbers, which I showed are impossible.

Wire has
impedance

Of course it does. Or else your 'whole house' protectors wouldn't work.

which is why real world protectors manufacturers
discuss and promote protectors with the short, direct, and
independent connection to a common earth ground.

The 'whole house' protector must have a short earth path because it is
located upstream and downstream equipment inside the home will be earth
referenced through the wall outlet. If the 'whole house' protector had a
high impedance path to ground it would leave a high voltage spike on the
power lines to be propagated on in to the earth referenced device. The
surge across the interior equipment would then be the let through clamp
voltage of the 'whole house' device plus the rise above earth caused by the
high impedance path to earth.

The 'plug in' unit has no such problem because it clamps all wires to a
common potential AT the device so what that potential is, relative to
earth, is irrelevant to the protected device: It sees nothing across any
wires in excess of it's rating regardless of where 'earth' is.

Those
adjacetives having engineering significance.

Which you apparently don't understand.

David can wish that wire limits an incoming current.

My 'wishing' has nothing to do with it. It's called ohms law.

But
that destructive current comes from a current mode source.

Which is arc gap shunted to earth at the entry panel.

The power lines at the input panel are voltage clamped and that let through
voltage (surge) is then presented through the wiring resistance to the
interior devices.

Voltage will rise, as necessary, to maintain that current
flow; a first year engineering concept.

Maybe you should take year 2 where they cover arc gap suppressors and
voltage clamps.

Posted are basic electrical principles such as wire
impedance and current mode sources that describe how surges
can create destructive voltages.

Except you got everything about them wrong.

David's lucid response
includes poppycock and some idea that wire resistance will
limit the current out of a current source.

No, the input panel arc gap suppressors voltage clamp the power lines and
shunt the current to earth so what the interior wiring sees is a voltage
source surge.

snip of w_tom babble

w_tom wrote:

One can convert a plug-in protector into a 'whole house'
protector. First cut down that 'too long' power cord. Then
increase the joules rating significantly to be equivalent to a
'whole house' protector. Then attach that plug-in protector
at the service entrance. Of course for the same money, one
gets a protector that has longer life expectancy (on the order
of up to 100 times longer because it is properly sized), is
designed for that location, is easier to install, and is
actually safety rated for that location - all for about the
same money as one or two overrated plug-in protectors.

Except that responsible 'whole house' protector manufacturers recommend
'plug in' protectors for sensitive equipment in addition to their protector.


David Maynard wrote:

...
What w-tom fails to mention in his 'whole house' tirade is
that the 'whole house' protectors use essentially the same
protective devices as the 'plug in' protectors he so
derides, albeit of larger capacity. The reason 'plug-ins'
use smaller devices is because of the wiring, which all
'surge protectors' depend on to limit the current surge.
And because the 'plug-ins' are located at the computer end
of the wiring, there is more wiring resistance and, hence,
a lower surge current for them to deal with.

His claim that the devices in the 'plug-ins' degrades
applies equally to his own preferred protection scheme.
...

Mike Tomlinson wrote:

In article , David Maynard
writes


One of these days you need to take off the 'U.S. bigot' blinders.


I apologise for the comment, which was inappropriate. Having had a few
glasses of wine did not help.

No sweat. Understood and accepted.


I'm not a "US bigot" and in fact visit the States two or three times a
year. I still feel that the quality of electrical appliances in the
US, such as you'd buy in your local WalMart, is extremely poor compared
to their European equivalents.

Well, we also have the 'equivalent' of 'European equivalents' available too.

I have my own version of the 'Chinese made' tirade but that's another topic.

Perhaps it's a sign of the 'throwaway
society', where appliances are replaced rather than repaired (see
sci.electronics.repair)

It's a cute buzz word but the fact of the matter is it's generally cheaper,
regardless of who makes it, to run off a new board with automated
manufacturing equipment than it is to pay someone a decent wage to debug
and repair one.

But I can assure you there is a quite healthy appliance repair business in
the U.S.; just not for repairing 5 buck telephones. And I'm not so sure
that going back to the days of 60 bucks for a basic phone, with 5 buck/hr
repair wages, just so they're 'worth repairing' would be necessarily a
great thing.

In article , David Maynard
writes

I have my own version of the 'Chinese made' tirade but that's another topic.

It's a frequent lament on sci.electronics.repair.

It's a cute buzz word but the fact of the matter is it's generally cheaper,
regardless of who makes it, to run off a new board with automated
manufacturing equipment than it is to pay someone a decent wage to debug
and repair one.

That's true, but it's a shame about the impact on the environment. And
much of this failed kit makes its way to the Third World for "recycling"
where it poisons the locals and their environment.

http://www.crra.com/ewaste/ttrash2/ttrash2/

But I can assure you there is a quite healthy appliance repair business in
the U.S.; just not for repairing 5 buck telephones.

Fortunately, I got out of the PC/monitor/printer repair industry a few
years ago when I saw the writing on the wall.

And I'm not so sure
that going back to the days of 60 bucks for a basic phone, with 5 buck/hr
repair wages, just so they're 'worth repairing' would be necessarily a
great thing.

It's only with the advance of "creeping featurisation" (i.e. adding more
bells and whistles) that electronic equipment has become more complex
and thus more likely to fail.

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Mike Tomlinson wrote:

In article , David Maynard
writes


I have my own version of the 'Chinese made' tirade but that's another topic.


It's a frequent lament on sci.electronics.repair.

I'm sure.


It's a cute buzz word but the fact of the matter is it's generally cheaper,
regardless of who makes it, to run off a new board with automated
manufacturing equipment than it is to pay someone a decent wage to debug
and repair one.


That's true, but it's a shame about the impact on the environment. And
much of this failed kit makes its way to the Third World for "recycling"
where it poisons the locals and their environment.

http://www.crra.com/ewaste/ttrash2/ttrash2/

That article is so filled with hysterical hyperbole that I can't tell how
much, if any, of it deserves serious consideration.


But I can assure you there is a quite healthy appliance repair business in
the U.S.; just not for repairing 5 buck telephones.


Fortunately, I got out of the PC/monitor/printer repair industry a few
years ago when I saw the writing on the wall.

Yeah. I used to do audio/visual repair quite a while back.

Just repaired two monitors though


And I'm not so sure
that going back to the days of 60 bucks for a basic phone, with 5 buck/hr
repair wages, just so they're 'worth repairing' would be necessarily a
great thing.


It's only with the advance of "creeping featurisation" (i.e. adding more
bells and whistles) that electronic equipment has become more complex
and thus more likely to fail.

I certainly subscribed to a similar theory with automobile 'features', like
power windows, power seats, etc. Just 'one more thing' to break.

However, with electronics it's actually not the case as reliability has
increased so much it's beyond comprehension.

For example, it was hailed as a stunning technological breakthrough when
computers finally achieved a mean time to repair shorter than the mean time
to failure, which meant they could run an 8 hour shift, shut down
operations for an 8 hour maintenance cycle, and be ready to run again the
next morning. (will wonders never cease?)

A simple PDA is orders of magnitude more powerful than that old behemoth
was but can you imagine the outcry if you had to have it repaired every 8
hours? Hell, the battery charge lasts longer than that.

Btw, the biggest driving force to what you call "creeping featurisation" is
the microcontroller (processor). Once you have one to perform the basic
functions of the device it's essentially 'free', or close to it, to throw
in some more 'feature' adding code.

Keep in mind that your computer is connected to the internet and can also
get a surge through the Networking media whether that is from a DSL line or
a cable modem line. Lightning can strike the ground or even the power
station making the power, or your house. Also in some places in times of
heavy use the power company may not be making enough power thus causing
some fluctuation.

computers can handle some fluctuations in power. In the USA in the midwest
where I live we get a lot of irratic thunder storms with lots of lightning.
sometimes the power goes out and that is probably the most dangerous time
for a power surge for a computer. This is when a UPS Uninterruptible Power
Supply can help to protect your computer. Sudden outages and then when the
power tries to come back on is when damage is more likely to occur. I have
also heard of the wiring of the circuits in the house can be a factor. If
you are on the same circuit as say a refrigerator or a
airconditioner/furnace there may be some fluctuation when those devices
start up or shut off.

I have always used a surge protector but I honestly do not know how well
they are made or how much protection they afford. One good thing they
provide is a central location to plug your gear into. This way if you want
to work on your computer you know if you turn off the surge protector that
everything is off.

Are surge protectors on the main power supply actually needed in
the UK?

here in the UK we have few overhead mains power lines and have a
relatively steady mains power supply when compared to many other
countries (including the US).

However there seem to be very many surge protector products
advertised for sale in the UK (Argos, Maplins, etc).

I am quite sure it is not bad practice to use a surge protector but
in fact I have never known anyone who has has a problem from a
surge coming in through the power supply.

So personally I don't bother using a surge protector on my PC.

Am I being too complacent?

In message , Lem writes

My sister in \Cornwall (nr Helston) had a brownout) voltages of several
hundred volts over 230V apparently - lost everything connected - PC,
DVD, TV etc. Power company responsible and they did replace everything -
but they did try to replace decent stuff with cheap brands.

Surge protectors would have almost certainly saved her the hassle..


--
Nigel J Carron

In article , Bernard Peek
writes

Bare wires passing through ceramic tubes in the floor joists. Apparently
this still meets the code in some states.

Referred to by the Shermans as "knob and tube" wiring. Though I thought
the wires were insulated.

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