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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 18th 18, 03:32 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 213
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:53:50 -0500, Flasherly
wrote:

Have or can you optionally turn off UEFI for Legacy compatibility?


I see a setting to enable/disable CSM (Compatibility Support Module).
That option is enabled, as it's my understanding that MBR drives and
operating systems other than Win8 and Win10 need that in order to boot.
There's no option to do the reverse, that I can see, of disabling UEFI
and turning it all back into a plain vanilla BIOS.

Does the Intel CPU itself qualify for Microsoft non-support for "newer
devices", for anything but the latest Windows 10 drivers?


I haven't made it to the 'drivers' stage yet. The system shuts down,
pauses, and restarts during the initial copying of files from DVD to
HDD. On a related note, the official stance is that only Win10 drivers
will ever be available for this motherboard/CPU combo. For the moment,
I'm keeping things simple, I hope, by skipping Windows and trying to
install Linux.

When I tried to bring up XP on an AMD octal core I had to shut down
everything on the BIOS CPU page. I could only stabilize XP by
allowing it adapt to paired-cores, one at a time, from a successful
boot as a 2-core system (BIOS allows turning off all other cores),
then 4 cores, six, then eight. Each time rebooting, upon a successful
load, with an addition paired-core added. Which I also binary-imaged,
the OS, to avoid possibly having to the go back a dual-core, as much
procedurally, in starting over in the event of a misstep.

All Legacy BIOS in these woods. And other than the cores, I haven't
yet gotten back to the BIOS to begin refreshing my knowledge of the
individual settings, to test virtually everything else I turned off
and hobbled on the CPU page.

Sounds to me like you're also into BIOS, except it's a more advanced
stage, and you need to call it for what it is - UEFI. I would. I'd
also consider turning it off. (All or selectively no doubt is an
interesting quandary.) Nevertheless, a reasonable thing to expect to
ask, even if I've never owned one, at the very least for the sake of
compatibility prior to a state of UEFI.

Just as it would be to assume ASRock (an ASUS subsidiary) wouldn't
expect people only to run Windows 10 on your Intel chipsets, but as
well provides W7 drivers. However that works in a latter case with an
OS designed before UEFI.


Officially, there will be no Win7/Win8 drivers for this generation of
hardware. That's not to say that people aren't hacking drivers to see if
they can make it work, but I'm far from having to worry about that. So
far, I'm just trying Linux and Win10, with equally disappointing
results.

  #12  
Old December 18th 18, 03:33 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Char Jackson
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Posts: 213
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 22:20:21 +0000 (GMT), "rp"
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 13:41:44 -0800, mike wrote:

Another issue I've had recently relates to partition alignment.
I had old drives that were formatted with 32Kbyte partition offset.


That rang a bell with me. I had a system refuse to boot due to the
allocation unit size. I'd tried using a large size for a partition I
used for backup and it did the power off and try again thing even
though the boot and system partitions hadn't changed. This was with
Windows 10 but it wasn't getting far enough to attempt the boot if I
remember correctly.


Good info, but I'm pretty sure alignment isn't the issue. I'll keep it
on the list, though. Thanks.

  #13  
Old December 18th 18, 04:05 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Char Jackson
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Posts: 213
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 17:18:28 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

With no drives drives connected, just 1 memory module, and using onboard
video (BIOS configured to use the i7 CPU's graphics), the 550W PSU would
be more than sufficient to provide power to that minimal non-bootable
setup. You can load GRUB which is in the bootstrap code of the MBR, so
the HDD is getting enough power for its surge current to start spinning.
There's enough power for that but as soon as you try to run an OS from
the HDD then you get the power loss.


So far, I'm right there with you.

Mint runs from a USB boot drive.


Yes, as a 'live' environment I've had Linux running from a USB thumb
drive, and I've also had it running 'live' from a DVD.

Presuming that loads the CPU the same
as for Mint on an HDD, the CPU is ruled out, like the paste being absent
or badly applied, no contact with the heatsink, or its fan not spinning.
CPU temperature is okay. CPU fan RPM seems low but if the temps are
okay then hopefully the BIOS' range on CPU RPM goes lower than 1500 RPM
before it does a safety shutdown. I'd still look at the thermal
settings in BIOS to be sure they were okay with the hardware setup.


The CPU fan speed is variable. I've heard it change up and down quite
frequently, but every time I happen to look, it's just under 1600 or so.
/pause/ OK, I checked again and the CPU fan speed is currently
fluctuating between 1630 and 1660, and the CPU temp is 39C/102.2F. The
motherboard temp is 35C/95F. Temps don't seem to be a problem, as in
being high enough to trip the system into shutdown in order to protect
itself. I see UEFI settings for Overcurrent and Overtemp Protection, (2
separate settings, not one combined), and both are enabled, although it
doesn't spell out the details or thresholds, at least not on this
screen. On the OC-Tweaker page, there are countless settings and it's
probably available to be viewed/changed there. I'm trusting that the
defaults are reasonable.

The Corsair vx550w has only one +12V rail. No having to balance loads
across rails. I was thinking you could try using one of the Molex power
connectors with an adapter to a SATA power connector to put the HDD on a
different rail, but there isn't another rail. This isn't a modular PSU,
so a big mess of cabling coming out of it. Have you tried a different
SATA power connector from the PSU?


Actually, yes, I tried a connector from the second SATA power cable, but
I admit that I did that without knowing that this PSU is single rail.

The VX is their value series, so not
top of the line models. That PSU is probably way outside its 5-year
warranty (looks like it showed up around 2007).


IIRC, I probably purchased it around then. The other PSU that I
temporarily swapped in, a Corsair tx650w, was purchased around 2010 or
so. That one, being a bit newer and having a bit more initial capacity,
produced exactly the same behavior. I was ready to rule out a weak PSU
issue, since both PSUs came out of working systems to be tried here, but
I might need to revisit that idea based on what you're saying directly
below.

Many PSUs lose about 5%
of their rated capacity per year (assuming they ever could sustain the
rated capacity in the first place). By now, it might be down to 56% of
its rated capacity. I'd check the mobo's specs, for 1 memory module,
and the i7 CPU to see if their total power draw was under 312 watts.


I don't remember seeing that exact spec, so I've been using various
online PSU calculators. Almost every PSU maker seems to have one of
their own.

Unless I paid $200 for a high-quality PSU, I'd probably replace the PSU
along with the CMOS battery after 6-8 years (users have been holding
onto the PCs for longer, and the same with their cars, so before it
wasn't an issue regarding gradual capacity loss since most PCs got
replaced before 6 years old).


It's a brand new motherboard, so the CMOS battery should be fine. I'm
not seeing any indications that it's not.

The PSU, on the other hand, I'm not as sure about. From the beginning,
I've thought this was a (lack of) power issue, but I assumed that
swapping in the tx650w had ruled that out. That PSU, too, is getting
long in the tooth and may not have the capacity that it had when it was
new, although it still works fine to power an AMD board/CPU and 16
internal hard drives. At worst, I thought it would at least get farther
along than the 550, but with either PSU, the system shuts down and
restarts exactly the same.

Remember that Corsair does not manufacturer anything. They spec out
what they want from the factory and sell on their brand name. No idea
who actually made that Corsair PSU. Maybe looking inside might reveal
the maker from from stickers inside. A lot of PSUs are made by CWT
(Channel Well Tech, http://www.cwt.com.tw/), like for Thermaltake (poor
but depends on who is the OEM for a model) and Corsair (fair to good).
Quite often the same OEM produces varying quality produces which is
dependent on the requirements specified by the designer/customer
(whomever is stamping their brand on the PSU). I don't know they have
changed their style from the past when you could tell CWT was the OEM
because of all the green tape inside the PSU for many of their models
(their brand or rebranded), for example:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/hs-wordpress...38/370_071.jpg

You might also look at the label on the transformer to see "CWT" there.
You might discove the OEM by looking inside. If it is an 80-plus
certificed PSU, there should be a report, and that will identify who is
the real manufacturer. I like to stay with PSUs whose brand is the same
as the manufacture or they actually design the PSU and require the plant
they hire to build to specs (e.g., FSP who underrate their PSUs,
Enermax).

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...er,2913-4.html
Note: The charts may be too small to read, even when clicked to enlarge.
Click on an image, right-click on it, open in new window, and then
magnify.
Yellow = OEMs - who actually manufacturers the PSU (and may sell under
their own name while also doling out for rebranding).
Orange = Design/spec the PSU but have someone else make it.
Gray = No tech involvement, just reselling something usually unknown
or low end (value models).

Notice FSP is a design & manufacture brand. Corsair is a design &
someone-else-manufacture brand (CWT, Seasonic, Chicony, Flextronics).
The landscape may have changed since that article was published. I
don't refer such charts (but found one this time). Instead I just
remember a few OEMs that also sell under their own brand, like FSP,
Enermax, HEC, Seasonic. Not every model they've ever made is perfect
but generally they produce good to excellent PSUs. That also doesn't
mean Corsair isn't good, just that they don't produce but just spec out
what they want produced, or they select existing products that meet
their specs. They rebrand. The same for OCZ products that a lot of
users like to buy.

Oh, you aren't overclocking the CPU in the BIOS settings, are you? Just
start out with the default settings and use SPD for memory timings.


Correct - everything is default. Absolutely no OC at this point for CPU
and/or RAM, and probably never will be. By my standards, this Core
i7-8700 is fairly high end and was chosen so that I wouldn't have to OC
it to get decent results.

From all our testing, my guess it you need to test with a newer and
perhaps better PSU.


Well, that was my initial thought, as well. I guess the 650 swapped in
for the 550 wasn't enough of a game changer to be a valid test. The
vx550w and tx650w might be much more alike than different.

  #14  
Old December 18th 18, 04:28 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 213
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 18:21:26 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
This is a new system build that fails to boot from the SATA HDD.
Instead, it appears to power down and restart, in a loop.

Mobo: ASRock Z390 Taichi (original BIOS P1.20, since updated to P1.80)
*RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws F4-3200C16Q-64GVK (4x16GB)
*CPU: Intel Core i7-8700
Asus optical drive scavenged from parts drawer
Samsung 2TB 5400RPM SATA HDD scavenged from parts drawer
PS2 keyboard
USB mouse
Onboard video (also tested with older PCIe video card)

*The CPU and RAM are on ASRock's approved compatible list for this mobo.

With all parts on hand, I built the new system on a non-conductive
table, using the mobo's non-static envelope for additional protection. I
like to do the initial build outside of a case to make sure everything
works before I go to the trouble of physically installing everything
inside the case.

The CPU and stock cooler installed without issue, with the stock cooler
coming from the factory with heat transfer compound already applied. I
installed a single memory module in slot A1 (closest to CPU). I
connected a known working PSU (Corsair vx550w), the PS2 keyboard and the
USB mouse. I connected a monitor via HDMI to the onboard video and fired
it up. No optical drive or HDD connected at this point. The PSU is
connected by the standard 24-pin connector and the 8-pin EPS12v
connector. The mobo has a separate 4-pin ATX12v connector, which remains
unconnected. ASRock tech support says that's fine.

With no boot devices connected, the system came up directly in the BIOS
screen, where everything looked normal. The CPU and RAM were recognized;
the CPU fan RPM was reported as about 1580 RPM and CPU temp at 34C
(later stabilizing at about 38-45C, depending on activity).

I shut it down, plugged in a USB thumb drive with Memtest+ 6.00 on it,
and started back up. As the only available boot device, the system
automatically booted into the Memtest program. (Fast forward here, but I
tested an individual RAM stick in slot A1, then B1, then A2, and finally
B2. Then I jumped ahead and installed all 4 memory modules and let
Memtest run overnight. Absolutely no issues so far, but I removed all
but the A1 module before proceeding to the next test.)

Next, I removed the Memtest USB thumb drive and connected the optical
drive via SATA. I inserted a known good Linux Mint 19 disc and started
the system. The 'live' Linux environment came up without any issues. I
temporarily connected the breadboard system to my LAN and browsed the
net for a period of time to watch for issues, but everything was fine.

Next, I shut down and connected a single Samsung 2TB 5400 SATA HDD and
restarted the system. Again, I booted the Linux live environment, but
this time I elected to install Linux to the HDD. That completed without
issue. The next step would be to boot into that new Linux install.

When I was ready, I removed the Linux disc from the optical drive and
rebooted, expecting the system to boot into Linux from the HDD. I got to
the expected grub menu, where I have 4 choices and the first choice is
the default: Linux Mint 19. Pressing Enter or allowing the timer to
expire, the next thing that happens is all of the LEDs (there are quite
a few on this mobo) go out, the CPU fan stops spinning, and after 2-3
seconds, the system powers up again, repeating the behavior described.
It gets to the grub menu, then whether I intervene or not, it powers
down and restarts, in a loop.

===
Status so far:
Stable in the BIOS screens with no storage devices connected.
Stable in Memtest when run from USB thumb drive.
Stable in the live Linux environment when run from optical disc.
**Unable to boot into Linux from the SATA HDD.**
===

I grabbed a second Samsung 2TB SATA HDD and different SATA cable, then
installed Linux to that drive. I got exactly the same behavior described
above.

Next, with the SATA HDD still connected, I chose the Memtest option from
the grub menu. A slightly older version comes up, 5.01 rather than the
6.00 that I have on the USB thumb drive, but Memtest comes up and runs
successfully.

Thinking it's possibly a too-weak PSU at 550W, I swapped in the 650W PSU
from another working system, a Corsair tx650w, but it made absolutely no
difference, so I went back to the 550W unit. Online PSU calculators tell
me that I need between 230W and 340W, depending on the calculator, so
adding a bit for headroom they think I should be OK with 350W to 450W,
indicating to me that 550 and 650 are well into the safe area.

Thinking it's an overheated CPU, I can see in the BIOS screen and in
Memtest that the CPU temp hovers at 38-45C, but usually stays right
around 40-41C. The heat fins on the CPU cooler appear to be at room
temperature, but then I'm only running Memtest or viewing the BIOS
screens, so not any appreciable load. (Yes, it's UEFI, but I'm used to
calling it BIOS.)

Thinking it's RAM that's not being properly recognized, I see in the
BIOS that it's recognized as exactly what G.Skill says it should be:
"DDR4-3200 PC4-25600 CL 16-18-18-38 1.35v"

ASRock suggested RMA'ing the mobo and Newegg agreed, so I did. When the
replacement arrived the other day, I repeated all of the steps listed
above and eventually arrived at exactly the same place:

===
Status so far:
Stable in the BIOS screens with no storage devices connected.
Stable in Memtest when run from USB thumb drive.
Stable in the live Linux environment when run from optical disc.
**Unable to boot into Linux from the SATA HDD.**
===

Beginning to doubt the integrity of the Linux DVD, even after its
integrity check was successful and it's a disc that I've used
successfully before, I downloaded and burned the latest Windows 10 ISO.
Booting from the Windows 10 disc, I get to the point where it starts to
copy files to the HDD, then the system powers down, LEDs and CPU fan
off, then 2-3 seconds later it powers up again and starts the Windows
install from scratch. Even though I was able to install Linux twice on
the first HDD and once on the second HDD, I couldn't get the system to
stay up long enough to get Windows installed. I also tried burning the
Windows 10 ISO to a USB thumb drive, but I couldn't get the system to
stay up long enough to get Windows installed that way, either. BTW,
there are 8 SATA ports on the mobo, 6 on one controller and 2 on another
controller. I tried SATA ports from both groups.

I'm currently on page 58 of 491 pages on the ASRock forums, and so far
I've seen two others with a "system powers down and restarts" issue, but
no resolution provided.

I've built at least several hundred PC systems for people since the
early 1990's, most of which have gone smoothly, but this one currently
has me stumped. This build is supposed to be for me, if I can get it
working.

At this point, I'm not sure where to go next.
- Is it running out of power? Do I need a newer, bigger, PSU?
- Is there an issue with the CPU?
- Should I chalk this expensive mobo, my first ASRock, up to experience
and go with something from ASUS or Gigabyte?


Do you have a Kill-O-Watt meter ?


I've been meaning to get one for years. They aren't that expensive.

My Test System right now, varies from 100W to 350W (furmark).

Booting draws as much as 170W, which suggests the CPU is railed
on one core during parts of POST. I don't think I have any
PSUs in the house, that could not power the system in that
state. Only Furmark would be in danger of tipping over
the most gutless supply. I was rather surprised what it
takes to wake my new video card up. Even playing BF2
it was only drawing 130W or so.

During installation, install media needs to be decompressed.
On Linux, it's a squashfs perhaps. On Windows, it's their "fancy
compressor which compresses as good as 7ZIP or RAR". These need
to be decompressed during installation phase. Windows in the
past, has elected to use more than one core during decompression.
This implies (perhaps) that each file could be compressed
individually. So more than one file could be processed at
a time, depending on source media read rate.

if you expect to do a good job of maximizing power consumption,
you'll need Furmark (good) or Prime95 (less). If the Linux
LiveCD will boot, you can go to mersenne.org/downloads and
get the static linked Linux Prime95 and run the torture test.
That will heat up the CPU nicely. Using lmsensors or equivalent,
should allow monitoring CPU temps.


At the moment, the situation has deteriorated to the point where the
only peripheral connected is the optical drive, and yet it still won't
boot as it did before. Previously, that combo would not only boot up,
but I could have a HDD connected and tell Linux to install there.
Disconnecting the optical drive and inserting a LiveCD on USB gives the
same results - no boot, loss of power, pause, restart, loop.

I'll let it rest for a bit and then try again.

Got a $20 SSD handy ? Install onto that ?

*******

Install Linux from a USB key... to a USB key ?

The intention in this case, is to avoid SATA entirely.


See above, even a single optical drive or USB stick is apparently enough
to tip it over at the moment, let alone two of something.

You would be creating a slash ("/") and swap on the
USB key and installing file by file as normal. This isn't
particularly good for the USB key of course, but it's
just for a test, not for long-term running.

*******

Seatools has a USB bootable option. AFAIK the Samsung division
was bought by Seagate ? Maybe (by now) Samsung branded drives
are included ?

https://www.seagate.com/ca/en/support/downloads/

Running a HDD test, would prove whether it's "just" HDD
access that tips it over.


Well, right now, it's USB, SATA HDD, m.2 NVMe, and optical, any *one* of
which are enough to tip it over.

*******

I would take one last thorough pass through the BIOS settings,
to see if there are any power limiters or something. There's
got to be a hint in there somewhere.


It was ASRock support who firmly stated that if the setup defaults don't
work to boot the system, then I should RMA it, so I RMA'd the first
board. Now that the replacement behaves exactly the same way, I'm not
sure what to think. To me, it has always smelled like a lack-of-power
issue, but I figured what are the odds that two PSUs that work fine in
other systems, one with 16 internal drives, wouldn't work on this system
with a freakin' USB or optical drive. This board/CPU combo may be a
beast, though.

*******

In the past, some BIOS did a poor job of resource planning.
Most OS installed involve "PNP OS: No", which means that
the BIOS plans the memory and address map.

In one case, writes to RAM were actually writing to a USB
overcurrent register, and causing an overcurrent message
to appear on the screen. And this is a side effect of the
BIOS not being able to plan a memory map properly. This
typically happened on older systems with 8GB limits, where
the user installed 4GB of RAM, and then... the BIOS
would lose its mind.

*******

Well, really, I'm stumped. Sounds like a design
flaw. But I wouldn't let that stop me from having
a little fun and running the more obscure test cases.
Before trying a Gigabyte board.


My last couple of boards have been Gigabyte and they were stable to the
point of being boring, where boring is a good thing. This is my first
ASRock and I'm not sure what I was thinking, other than "hey, the
reviews are good, let's try it".

Dumping the Samsung HDD and testing something else would
be relatively high up my list. Just in case.


I've been letting it all rest with the power off while I type this. Once
I hit send, I'll try again to see if I can get at least as far as I got
earlier.

*******

The best part about some of the stuff I've run,
is not remembering the results at all :-)

https://www.easyuefi.com/wintousb/

"Hasleo software"

"best free Windows To Go Creator"

I think there is supposed to be a free version,
maybe that's it. A USB-to-go would allow running
Windows without an install step. I think I might
have also booted an Enterprise Windows VM and
tried to make an OTG stick from there too, in
VirtualBox, with USB passthru. Hasleo might be
an attempt to do that with non-Enterprise windows.


Interesting, thanks. I don't think I'm at the point where I can try that
since I need it to actually boot something without powering down, but
I'll keep it in mind.

  #15  
Old December 18th 18, 04:42 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,407
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 20:32:12 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote:

I haven't made it to the 'drivers' stage yet. The system shuts down,
pauses, and restarts during the initial copying of files from DVD to
HDD. On a related note, the official stance is that only Win10 drivers
will ever be available for this motherboard/CPU combo. For the moment,
I'm keeping things simple, I hope, by skipping Windows and trying to
install Linux.

Officially, there will be no Win7/Win8 drivers for this generation of
hardware. That's not to say that people aren't hacking drivers to see if
they can make it work, but I'm far from having to worry about that. So
far, I'm just trying Linux and Win10, with equally disappointing
results.


https://www.asrock.com/support/index.asp?cat=Drivers
I see that now, they're all about Windows 10 and exclusively.

The "other Linux tests", apparently, as that's also out of official
support range. (Haven't watched it - running behind TOR.)
https://level1techs.com/video/asrock...iew-linux-test

Only one mention of it being sensitive, contrary to otherwise more
generally a stable piece of well-regarded hardware.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/co...ew_linux_test/

Wouldn't be right to make presuming remarks about throttling back on
the BIOS for the least demanding or fail-safe scenario. Also, you've
already been there, at a ASRock support line, to try and convince them
to convince you for a reason to keep it when Windows 10 doesn't accept
an otherwise initial and adequately built assembly. And they've been
fair then to give you another board to replicate an unsuccessful
correction. At some point it becomes an imposition to continued
changing parts, scrambling over BIOS settings, when you've reasonably
met minimum expectations ASRock and exclusively Microsoft Windows10
intended for this board.

And you don't want to hear about a couple MBs I was unhappy enough to
return, nor those I didn't and got stuck with. It did happen,
nevertheless. Customer comes first, that's it. It's your money and
your right to be suitably impressed by your choice in a purchase
agreement.
  #16  
Old December 18th 18, 05:03 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Charlie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 51
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATAHDD

On 12/17/2018 12:11 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
This is a new system build that fails to boot from the SATA HDD.
Instead, it appears to power down and restart, in a loop.

Mobo: ASRock Z390 Taichi (original BIOS P1.20, since updated to P1.80)
*RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws F4-3200C16Q-64GVK (4x16GB)
*CPU: Intel Core i7-8700
Asus optical drive scavenged from parts drawer
Samsung 2TB 5400RPM SATA HDD scavenged from parts drawer
PS2 keyboard
USB mouse
Onboard video (also tested with older PCIe video card)

*The CPU and RAM are on ASRock's approved compatible list for this mobo.

With all parts on hand, I built the new system on a non-conductive
table, using the mobo's non-static envelope for additional protection. I
like to do the initial build outside of a case to make sure everything
works before I go to the trouble of physically installing everything
inside the case.

The CPU and stock cooler installed without issue, with the stock cooler
coming from the factory with heat transfer compound already applied. I
installed a single memory module in slot A1 (closest to CPU). I
connected a known working PSU (Corsair vx550w), the PS2 keyboard and the
USB mouse. I connected a monitor via HDMI to the onboard video and fired
it up. No optical drive or HDD connected at this point. The PSU is
connected by the standard 24-pin connector and the 8-pin EPS12v
connector. The mobo has a separate 4-pin ATX12v connector, which remains
unconnected. ASRock tech support says that's fine.

With no boot devices connected, the system came up directly in the BIOS
screen, where everything looked normal. The CPU and RAM were recognized;
the CPU fan RPM was reported as about 1580 RPM and CPU temp at 34C
(later stabilizing at about 38-45C, depending on activity).

I shut it down, plugged in a USB thumb drive with Memtest+ 6.00 on it,
and started back up. As the only available boot device, the system
automatically booted into the Memtest program. (Fast forward here, but I
tested an individual RAM stick in slot A1, then B1, then A2, and finally
B2. Then I jumped ahead and installed all 4 memory modules and let
Memtest run overnight. Absolutely no issues so far, but I removed all
but the A1 module before proceeding to the next test.)

Next, I removed the Memtest USB thumb drive and connected the optical
drive via SATA. I inserted a known good Linux Mint 19 disc and started
the system. The 'live' Linux environment came up without any issues. I
temporarily connected the breadboard system to my LAN and browsed the
net for a period of time to watch for issues, but everything was fine.

Next, I shut down and connected a single Samsung 2TB 5400 SATA HDD and
restarted the system. Again, I booted the Linux live environment, but
this time I elected to install Linux to the HDD. That completed without
issue. The next step would be to boot into that new Linux install.

When I was ready, I removed the Linux disc from the optical drive and
rebooted, expecting the system to boot into Linux from the HDD. I got to
the expected grub menu, where I have 4 choices and the first choice is
the default: Linux Mint 19. Pressing Enter or allowing the timer to
expire, the next thing that happens is all of the LEDs (there are quite
a few on this mobo) go out, the CPU fan stops spinning, and after 2-3
seconds, the system powers up again, repeating the behavior described.
It gets to the grub menu, then whether I intervene or not, it powers
down and restarts, in a loop.

===
Status so far:
Stable in the BIOS screens with no storage devices connected.
Stable in Memtest when run from USB thumb drive.
Stable in the live Linux environment when run from optical disc.
**Unable to boot into Linux from the SATA HDD.**
===

I grabbed a second Samsung 2TB SATA HDD and different SATA cable, then
installed Linux to that drive. I got exactly the same behavior described
above.

Next, with the SATA HDD still connected, I chose the Memtest option from
the grub menu. A slightly older version comes up, 5.01 rather than the
6.00 that I have on the USB thumb drive, but Memtest comes up and runs
successfully.

Thinking it's possibly a too-weak PSU at 550W, I swapped in the 650W PSU
from another working system, a Corsair tx650w, but it made absolutely no
difference, so I went back to the 550W unit. Online PSU calculators tell
me that I need between 230W and 340W, depending on the calculator, so
adding a bit for headroom they think I should be OK with 350W to 450W,
indicating to me that 550 and 650 are well into the safe area.

Thinking it's an overheated CPU, I can see in the BIOS screen and in
Memtest that the CPU temp hovers at 38-45C, but usually stays right
around 40-41C. The heat fins on the CPU cooler appear to be at room
temperature, but then I'm only running Memtest or viewing the BIOS
screens, so not any appreciable load. (Yes, it's UEFI, but I'm used to
calling it BIOS.)

Thinking it's RAM that's not being properly recognized, I see in the
BIOS that it's recognized as exactly what G.Skill says it should be:
"DDR4-3200 PC4-25600 CL 16-18-18-38 1.35v"

ASRock suggested RMA'ing the mobo and Newegg agreed, so I did. When the
replacement arrived the other day, I repeated all of the steps listed
above and eventually arrived at exactly the same place:

===
Status so far:
Stable in the BIOS screens with no storage devices connected.
Stable in Memtest when run from USB thumb drive.
Stable in the live Linux environment when run from optical disc.
**Unable to boot into Linux from the SATA HDD.**
===

Beginning to doubt the integrity of the Linux DVD, even after its
integrity check was successful and it's a disc that I've used
successfully before, I downloaded and burned the latest Windows 10 ISO.
Booting from the Windows 10 disc, I get to the point where it starts to
copy files to the HDD, then the system powers down, LEDs and CPU fan
off, then 2-3 seconds later it powers up again and starts the Windows
install from scratch. Even though I was able to install Linux twice on
the first HDD and once on the second HDD, I couldn't get the system to
stay up long enough to get Windows installed. I also tried burning the
Windows 10 ISO to a USB thumb drive, but I couldn't get the system to
stay up long enough to get Windows installed that way, either. BTW,
there are 8 SATA ports on the mobo, 6 on one controller and 2 on another
controller. I tried SATA ports from both groups.

I'm currently on page 58 of 491 pages on the ASRock forums, and so far
I've seen two others with a "system powers down and restarts" issue, but
no resolution provided.

I've built at least several hundred PC systems for people since the
early 1990's, most of which have gone smoothly, but this one currently
has me stumped. This build is supposed to be for me, if I can get it
working.

At this point, I'm not sure where to go next.
- Is it running out of power? Do I need a newer, bigger, PSU?
- Is there an issue with the CPU?
- Should I chalk this expensive mobo, my first ASRock, up to experience
and go with something from ASUS or Gigabyte?



Have you tried raising the CPU voltage slightly? My ASRock Z270 Extreme
will reboot on startup if the CPU voltage is too low.
It's worth a try although I'm at a loss to understand how it would boot
from a DVD.

Charlie

  #17  
Old December 18th 18, 06:00 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATAHDD

Char Jackson wrote:


This afternoon I took a recent Win10 ISO image and burned it to an m.2
NVMe drive. I disconnected the optical drive and the SATA HDD, then
installed the m.2 drive. Twice, out of about 20 boot attempts, I saw a
flash of the initial login screen from Win10, but in every case the
system would power down, pause, and restart. So it's not a Samsung 2TB
SATA HDD issue.


A thread with a good deal of weirdness in it.

http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/...rd-owners.html

One person may have damaged a CPU.

Hard to believe they don't test this stuff and monitor
the voltage settings the BIOS is using, under lab
conditions.

Paul
  #18  
Old December 18th 18, 06:02 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 75
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATAHDD

On 12/17/2018 3:18 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Char Jackson wrote:

This is a new system build that fails to boot from the SATA HDD.
Instead, it appears to power down and restart, in a loop.

Mobo: ASRock Z390 Taichi (original BIOS P1.20, since updated to P1.80)
*RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws F4-3200C16Q-64GVK (4x16GB)
*CPU: Intel Core i7-8700
Asus optical drive scavenged from parts drawer
Samsung 2TB 5400RPM SATA HDD scavenged from parts drawer
PS2 keyboard
USB mouse
Onboard video (also tested with older PCIe video card)

*The CPU and RAM are on ASRock's approved compatible list for this mobo.

With all parts on hand, I built the new system on a non-conductive
table, using the mobo's non-static envelope for additional protection. I
like to do the initial build outside of a case to make sure everything
works before I go to the trouble of physically installing everything
inside the case.

The CPU and stock cooler installed without issue, with the stock cooler
coming from the factory with heat transfer compound already applied. I
installed a single memory module in slot A1 (closest to CPU). I
connected a known working PSU (Corsair vx550w), the PS2 keyboard and the
USB mouse. I connected a monitor via HDMI to the onboard video and fired
it up. No optical drive or HDD connected at this point. The PSU is
connected by the standard 24-pin connector and the 8-pin EPS12v
connector. The mobo has a separate 4-pin ATX12v connector, which remains
unconnected. ASRock tech support says that's fine.

With no boot devices connected, the system came up directly in the BIOS
screen, where everything looked normal. The CPU and RAM were recognized;
the CPU fan RPM was reported as about 1580 RPM and CPU temp at 34C
(later stabilizing at about 38-45C, depending on activity).

I shut it down, plugged in a USB thumb drive with Memtest+ 6.00 on it,
and started back up. As the only available boot device, the system
automatically booted into the Memtest program. (Fast forward here, but I
tested an individual RAM stick in slot A1, then B1, then A2, and finally
B2. Then I jumped ahead and installed all 4 memory modules and let
Memtest run overnight. Absolutely no issues so far, but I removed all
but the A1 module before proceeding to the next test.)

Next, I removed the Memtest USB thumb drive and connected the optical
drive via SATA. I inserted a known good Linux Mint 19 disc and started
the system. The 'live' Linux environment came up without any issues. I
temporarily connected the breadboard system to my LAN and browsed the
net for a period of time to watch for issues, but everything was fine.

Next, I shut down and connected a single Samsung 2TB 5400 SATA HDD and
restarted the system. Again, I booted the Linux live environment, but
this time I elected to install Linux to the HDD. That completed without
issue. The next step would be to boot into that new Linux install.

When I was ready, I removed the Linux disc from the optical drive and
rebooted, expecting the system to boot into Linux from the HDD. I got to
the expected grub menu, where I have 4 choices and the first choice is
the default: Linux Mint 19. Pressing Enter or allowing the timer to
expire, the next thing that happens is all of the LEDs (there are quite
a few on this mobo) go out, the CPU fan stops spinning, and after 2-3
seconds, the system powers up again, repeating the behavior described.
It gets to the grub menu, then whether I intervene or not, it powers
down and restarts, in a loop.

===
Status so far:
Stable in the BIOS screens with no storage devices connected.
Stable in Memtest when run from USB thumb drive.
Stable in the live Linux environment when run from optical disc.
**Unable to boot into Linux from the SATA HDD.**
===

I grabbed a second Samsung 2TB SATA HDD and different SATA cable, then
installed Linux to that drive. I got exactly the same behavior described
above.

Next, with the SATA HDD still connected, I chose the Memtest option from
the grub menu. A slightly older version comes up, 5.01 rather than the
6.00 that I have on the USB thumb drive, but Memtest comes up and runs
successfully.

Thinking it's possibly a too-weak PSU at 550W, I swapped in the 650W PSU
from another working system, a Corsair tx650w, but it made absolutely no
difference, so I went back to the 550W unit. Online PSU calculators tell
me that I need between 230W and 340W, depending on the calculator, so
adding a bit for headroom they think I should be OK with 350W to 450W,
indicating to me that 550 and 650 are well into the safe area.

Thinking it's an overheated CPU, I can see in the BIOS screen and in
Memtest that the CPU temp hovers at 38-45C, but usually stays right
around 40-41C. The heat fins on the CPU cooler appear to be at room
temperature, but then I'm only running Memtest or viewing the BIOS
screens, so not any appreciable load. (Yes, it's UEFI, but I'm used to
calling it BIOS.)

Thinking it's RAM that's not being properly recognized, I see in the
BIOS that it's recognized as exactly what G.Skill says it should be:
"DDR4-3200 PC4-25600 CL 16-18-18-38 1.35v"

ASRock suggested RMA'ing the mobo and Newegg agreed, so I did. When the
replacement arrived the other day, I repeated all of the steps listed
above and eventually arrived at exactly the same place:

===
Status so far:
Stable in the BIOS screens with no storage devices connected.
Stable in Memtest when run from USB thumb drive.
Stable in the live Linux environment when run from optical disc.
**Unable to boot into Linux from the SATA HDD.**
===

Beginning to doubt the integrity of the Linux DVD, even after its
integrity check was successful and it's a disc that I've used
successfully before, I downloaded and burned the latest Windows 10 ISO.
Booting from the Windows 10 disc, I get to the point where it starts to
copy files to the HDD, then the system powers down, LEDs and CPU fan
off, then 2-3 seconds later it powers up again and starts the Windows
install from scratch. Even though I was able to install Linux twice on
the first HDD and once on the second HDD, I couldn't get the system to
stay up long enough to get Windows installed. I also tried burning the
Windows 10 ISO to a USB thumb drive, but I couldn't get the system to
stay up long enough to get Windows installed that way, either. BTW,
there are 8 SATA ports on the mobo, 6 on one controller and 2 on another
controller. I tried SATA ports from both groups.

I'm currently on page 58 of 491 pages on the ASRock forums, and so far
I've seen two others with a "system powers down and restarts" issue, but
no resolution provided.

I've built at least several hundred PC systems for people since the
early 1990's, most of which have gone smoothly, but this one currently
has me stumped. This build is supposed to be for me, if I can get it
working.

At this point, I'm not sure where to go next.
- Is it running out of power? Do I need a newer, bigger, PSU?
- Is there an issue with the CPU?
- Should I chalk this expensive mobo, my first ASRock, up to experience
and go with something from ASUS or Gigabyte?


With no drives drives connected, just 1 memory module, and using onboard
video (BIOS configured to use the i7 CPU's graphics), the 550W PSU would
be more than sufficient to provide power to that minimal non-bootable
setup. You can load GRUB which is in the bootstrap code of the MBR, so
the HDD is getting enough power for its surge current to start spinning.
There's enough power for that but as soon as you try to run an OS from
the HDD then you get the power loss.

Mint runs from a USB boot drive. Presuming that loads the CPU the same
as for Mint on an HDD, the CPU is ruled out, like the paste being absent
or badly applied, no contact with the heatsink, or its fan not spinning.
CPU temperature is okay. CPU fan RPM seems low but if the temps are
okay then hopefully the BIOS' range on CPU RPM goes lower than 1500 RPM
before it does a safety shutdown. I'd still look at the thermal
settings in BIOS to be sure they were okay with the hardware setup.

The Corsair vx550w has only one +12V rail. No having to balance loads
across rails. I was thinking you could try using one of the Molex power
connectors with an adapter to a SATA power connector to put the HDD on a
different rail, but there isn't another rail. This isn't a modular PSU,
so a big mess of cabling coming out of it. Have you tried a different
SATA power connector from the PSU? The VX is their value series, so not
top of the line models. That PSU is probably way outside its 5-year
warranty (looks like it showed up around 2007). Many PSUs lose about 5%
of their rated capacity per year (assuming they ever could sustain the
rated capacity in the first place). By now, it might be down to 56% of
its rated capacity. I'd check the mobo's specs, for 1 memory module,
and the i7 CPU to see if their total power draw was under 312 watts.
Unless I paid $200 for a high-quality PSU, I'd probably replace the PSU
along with the CMOS battery after 6-8 years (users have been holding
onto the PCs for longer, and the same with their cars, so before it
wasn't an issue regarding gradual capacity loss since most PCs got
replaced before 6 years old).

Remember that Corsair does not manufacturer anything. They spec out
what they want from the factory and sell on their brand name. No idea
who actually made that Corsair PSU. Maybe looking inside might reveal
the maker from from stickers inside. A lot of PSUs are made by CWT
(Channel Well Tech, http://www.cwt.com.tw/), like for Thermaltake (poor
but depends on who is the OEM for a model) and Corsair (fair to good).
Quite often the same OEM produces varying quality produces which is
dependent on the requirements specified by the designer/customer
(whomever is stamping their brand on the PSU). I don't know they have
changed their style from the past when you could tell CWT was the OEM
because of all the green tape inside the PSU for many of their models
(their brand or rebranded), for example:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/hs-wordpress...38/370_071.jpg

You might also look at the label on the transformer to see "CWT" there.
You might discove the OEM by looking inside. If it is an 80-plus
certificed PSU, there should be a report, and that will identify who is
the real manufacturer. I like to stay with PSUs whose brand is the same
as the manufacture or they actually design the PSU and require the plant
they hire to build to specs (e.g., FSP who underrate their PSUs,
Enermax).

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...er,2913-4.html
Note: The charts may be too small to read, even when clicked to enlarge.
Click on an image, right-click on it, open in new window, and then
magnify.
Yellow = OEMs - who actually manufacturers the PSU (and may sell under
their own name while also doling out for rebranding).
Orange = Design/spec the PSU but have someone else make it.
Gray = No tech involvement, just reselling something usually unknown
or low end (value models).

Notice FSP is a design & manufacture brand. Corsair is a design &
someone-else-manufacture brand (CWT, Seasonic, Chicony, Flextronics).
The landscape may have changed since that article was published. I
don't refer such charts (but found one this time). Instead I just
remember a few OEMs that also sell under their own brand, like FSP,
Enermax, HEC, Seasonic. Not every model they've ever made is perfect
but generally they produce good to excellent PSUs. That also doesn't
mean Corsair isn't good, just that they don't produce but just spec out
what they want produced, or they select existing products that meet
their specs. They rebrand. The same for OCZ products that a lot of
users like to buy.

Oh, you aren't overclocking the CPU in the BIOS settings, are you? Just
start out with the default settings and use SPD for memory timings.

From all our testing, my guess it you need to test with a newer and
perhaps better PSU.


OK, let's talk about power supplies.
I have zero experience with new power supplies, so consider this
"something to think about" rather than
a proclamation of truth.

Does your power supply have individually regulated outputs?

Back in the day, computer power supplies had ONE regulated power supply,
5V. OK, -5 and -12 might
have had linear regulators...but the point is the same.
The other supplies were open loop and determined by
the turns ratio on the transformer. Under normal
circumstances, that worked fine.

Problems happened when you had loads that the designers
didn't predict.

In a new mother board, where does the cpu power come from? If it's
switched down from 12V, there may not
be very much 5V load on an unpopulated motherboard.

The flux in the power transformer is controlled by
the 5V regulator. If the 5V is lightly loaded,
there isn't enough energy in core to maintain the 12V supply. The
solution is to put
MORE load on the 5V supply. People found this out
when they tried to run their CB radio off a computer
power supply without any 5V load.

This is a very long shot, but you've used up the
easy targets. Time to think about unlikely scenarios.
  #19  
Old December 18th 18, 06:17 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

Char Jackson wrote:

Hmm, I started wondering about UEFI which, I believe, is used by your
mobo. I haven't delved into that.

When you boot using the USB thumb drive, I'm not sure how UEFI is
involved. When booting from a SSD or HDD, UEFI is involved. The whole
UEFI scheme was Microsoft wanting to lockdown an installation of their
Windows product. It seems to irritate Linux users because of the
SecureBoot protection.

Can you find a SecureBoot option in the BIOS and see what happens when
you disable it?

https://www.avira.com/en/support-for...tail/kbid/1811
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ng-secure-boot

You'd think they have the firmware issue some bitch message that your OS
wasn't properly signed but knowing Microsoft they might've convinced the
BIOS makers to just immediately shutdown without a clue to the user.
  #20  
Old December 18th 18, 06:26 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:


This afternoon I took a recent Win10 ISO image and burned it to an m.2
NVMe drive. I disconnected the optical drive and the SATA HDD, then
installed the m.2 drive. Twice, out of about 20 boot attempts, I saw a
flash of the initial login screen from Win10, but in every case the
system would power down, pause, and restart. So it's not a Samsung 2TB
SATA HDD issue.


A thread with a good deal of weirdness in it.

http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/...rd-owners.html

One person may have damaged a CPU.

Hard to believe they don't test this stuff and monitor
the voltage settings the BIOS is using, under lab
conditions.

Paul


Flashing back to 1.30 (from 1.80) would be one of those "frickin'
frackin' son-of-a-brishing azzholes".

When you upgrade the BIOS, did the updater offer to save the current
code into a .bin file (so you could revert)? You could then go back to
1.20 that came in the mobo, see if that works, try 1.30 (or something
just incrementally next in version), and keep walking forward until the
mobo puked again, and then step back a version.

I've had to do that scheme when updating video drivers. When there is a
new version, very likely the old compatibility with old games gets
discarded in favor of new code for compatibility with new[er] games. I
have several old games. When I updated the video driver to the latest
version, my old games crashed. Go back to what I had, they worked. I
did a sort of binary update: pick an update version halfway between what
I had that works to the latest available one. If it worked, halve the
remaining range upward. If not, halve the range to work downward. As I
recall, I ended up using a 3 major version lesser than the currently
available latest version to keep my games going. I only went through
this mess because there something fixed in later versions that I needed;
else, it would've left it as-is (don't "fix" if not broken - the fix can
break what was working - new code means new bugs).
 




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