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#11
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:53:50 -0500, Flasherly
wrote: Have or can you optionally turn off UEFI for Legacy compatibility? I see a setting to enable/disable CSM (Compatibility Support Module). That option is enabled, as it's my understanding that MBR drives and operating systems other than Win8 and Win10 need that in order to boot. There's no option to do the reverse, that I can see, of disabling UEFI and turning it all back into a plain vanilla BIOS. Does the Intel CPU itself qualify for Microsoft non-support for "newer devices", for anything but the latest Windows 10 drivers? I haven't made it to the 'drivers' stage yet. The system shuts down, pauses, and restarts during the initial copying of files from DVD to HDD. On a related note, the official stance is that only Win10 drivers will ever be available for this motherboard/CPU combo. For the moment, I'm keeping things simple, I hope, by skipping Windows and trying to install Linux. When I tried to bring up XP on an AMD octal core I had to shut down everything on the BIOS CPU page. I could only stabilize XP by allowing it adapt to paired-cores, one at a time, from a successful boot as a 2-core system (BIOS allows turning off all other cores), then 4 cores, six, then eight. Each time rebooting, upon a successful load, with an addition paired-core added. Which I also binary-imaged, the OS, to avoid possibly having to the go back a dual-core, as much procedurally, in starting over in the event of a misstep. All Legacy BIOS in these woods. And other than the cores, I haven't yet gotten back to the BIOS to begin refreshing my knowledge of the individual settings, to test virtually everything else I turned off and hobbled on the CPU page. Sounds to me like you're also into BIOS, except it's a more advanced stage, and you need to call it for what it is - UEFI. I would. I'd also consider turning it off. (All or selectively no doubt is an interesting quandary.) Nevertheless, a reasonable thing to expect to ask, even if I've never owned one, at the very least for the sake of compatibility prior to a state of UEFI. Just as it would be to assume ASRock (an ASUS subsidiary) wouldn't expect people only to run Windows 10 on your Intel chipsets, but as well provides W7 drivers. However that works in a latter case with an OS designed before UEFI. Officially, there will be no Win7/Win8 drivers for this generation of hardware. That's not to say that people aren't hacking drivers to see if they can make it work, but I'm far from having to worry about that. So far, I'm just trying Linux and Win10, with equally disappointing results. |
#12
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 22:20:21 +0000 (GMT), "rp"
wrote: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 13:41:44 -0800, mike wrote: Another issue I've had recently relates to partition alignment. I had old drives that were formatted with 32Kbyte partition offset. That rang a bell with me. I had a system refuse to boot due to the allocation unit size. I'd tried using a large size for a partition I used for backup and it did the power off and try again thing even though the boot and system partitions hadn't changed. This was with Windows 10 but it wasn't getting far enough to attempt the boot if I remember correctly. Good info, but I'm pretty sure alignment isn't the issue. I'll keep it on the list, though. Thanks. |
#13
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 17:18:28 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:
With no drives drives connected, just 1 memory module, and using onboard video (BIOS configured to use the i7 CPU's graphics), the 550W PSU would be more than sufficient to provide power to that minimal non-bootable setup. You can load GRUB which is in the bootstrap code of the MBR, so the HDD is getting enough power for its surge current to start spinning. There's enough power for that but as soon as you try to run an OS from the HDD then you get the power loss. So far, I'm right there with you. Mint runs from a USB boot drive. Yes, as a 'live' environment I've had Linux running from a USB thumb drive, and I've also had it running 'live' from a DVD. Presuming that loads the CPU the same as for Mint on an HDD, the CPU is ruled out, like the paste being absent or badly applied, no contact with the heatsink, or its fan not spinning. CPU temperature is okay. CPU fan RPM seems low but if the temps are okay then hopefully the BIOS' range on CPU RPM goes lower than 1500 RPM before it does a safety shutdown. I'd still look at the thermal settings in BIOS to be sure they were okay with the hardware setup. The CPU fan speed is variable. I've heard it change up and down quite frequently, but every time I happen to look, it's just under 1600 or so. /pause/ OK, I checked again and the CPU fan speed is currently fluctuating between 1630 and 1660, and the CPU temp is 39C/102.2F. The motherboard temp is 35C/95F. Temps don't seem to be a problem, as in being high enough to trip the system into shutdown in order to protect itself. I see UEFI settings for Overcurrent and Overtemp Protection, (2 separate settings, not one combined), and both are enabled, although it doesn't spell out the details or thresholds, at least not on this screen. On the OC-Tweaker page, there are countless settings and it's probably available to be viewed/changed there. I'm trusting that the defaults are reasonable. The Corsair vx550w has only one +12V rail. No having to balance loads across rails. I was thinking you could try using one of the Molex power connectors with an adapter to a SATA power connector to put the HDD on a different rail, but there isn't another rail. This isn't a modular PSU, so a big mess of cabling coming out of it. Have you tried a different SATA power connector from the PSU? Actually, yes, I tried a connector from the second SATA power cable, but I admit that I did that without knowing that this PSU is single rail. The VX is their value series, so not top of the line models. That PSU is probably way outside its 5-year warranty (looks like it showed up around 2007). IIRC, I probably purchased it around then. The other PSU that I temporarily swapped in, a Corsair tx650w, was purchased around 2010 or so. That one, being a bit newer and having a bit more initial capacity, produced exactly the same behavior. I was ready to rule out a weak PSU issue, since both PSUs came out of working systems to be tried here, but I might need to revisit that idea based on what you're saying directly below. Many PSUs lose about 5% of their rated capacity per year (assuming they ever could sustain the rated capacity in the first place). By now, it might be down to 56% of its rated capacity. I'd check the mobo's specs, for 1 memory module, and the i7 CPU to see if their total power draw was under 312 watts. I don't remember seeing that exact spec, so I've been using various online PSU calculators. Almost every PSU maker seems to have one of their own. Unless I paid $200 for a high-quality PSU, I'd probably replace the PSU along with the CMOS battery after 6-8 years (users have been holding onto the PCs for longer, and the same with their cars, so before it wasn't an issue regarding gradual capacity loss since most PCs got replaced before 6 years old). It's a brand new motherboard, so the CMOS battery should be fine. I'm not seeing any indications that it's not. The PSU, on the other hand, I'm not as sure about. From the beginning, I've thought this was a (lack of) power issue, but I assumed that swapping in the tx650w had ruled that out. That PSU, too, is getting long in the tooth and may not have the capacity that it had when it was new, although it still works fine to power an AMD board/CPU and 16 internal hard drives. At worst, I thought it would at least get farther along than the 550, but with either PSU, the system shuts down and restarts exactly the same. Remember that Corsair does not manufacturer anything. They spec out what they want from the factory and sell on their brand name. No idea who actually made that Corsair PSU. Maybe looking inside might reveal the maker from from stickers inside. A lot of PSUs are made by CWT (Channel Well Tech, http://www.cwt.com.tw/), like for Thermaltake (poor but depends on who is the OEM for a model) and Corsair (fair to good). Quite often the same OEM produces varying quality produces which is dependent on the requirements specified by the designer/customer (whomever is stamping their brand on the PSU). I don't know they have changed their style from the past when you could tell CWT was the OEM because of all the green tape inside the PSU for many of their models (their brand or rebranded), for example: http://s3.amazonaws.com/hs-wordpress...38/370_071.jpg You might also look at the label on the transformer to see "CWT" there. You might discove the OEM by looking inside. If it is an 80-plus certificed PSU, there should be a report, and that will identify who is the real manufacturer. I like to stay with PSUs whose brand is the same as the manufacture or they actually design the PSU and require the plant they hire to build to specs (e.g., FSP who underrate their PSUs, Enermax). https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...er,2913-4.html Note: The charts may be too small to read, even when clicked to enlarge. Click on an image, right-click on it, open in new window, and then magnify. Yellow = OEMs - who actually manufacturers the PSU (and may sell under their own name while also doling out for rebranding). Orange = Design/spec the PSU but have someone else make it. Gray = No tech involvement, just reselling something usually unknown or low end (value models). Notice FSP is a design & manufacture brand. Corsair is a design & someone-else-manufacture brand (CWT, Seasonic, Chicony, Flextronics). The landscape may have changed since that article was published. I don't refer such charts (but found one this time). Instead I just remember a few OEMs that also sell under their own brand, like FSP, Enermax, HEC, Seasonic. Not every model they've ever made is perfect but generally they produce good to excellent PSUs. That also doesn't mean Corsair isn't good, just that they don't produce but just spec out what they want produced, or they select existing products that meet their specs. They rebrand. The same for OCZ products that a lot of users like to buy. Oh, you aren't overclocking the CPU in the BIOS settings, are you? Just start out with the default settings and use SPD for memory timings. Correct - everything is default. Absolutely no OC at this point for CPU and/or RAM, and probably never will be. By my standards, this Core i7-8700 is fairly high end and was chosen so that I wouldn't have to OC it to get decent results. From all our testing, my guess it you need to test with a newer and perhaps better PSU. Well, that was my initial thought, as well. I guess the 650 swapped in for the 550 wasn't enough of a game changer to be a valid test. The vx550w and tx650w might be much more alike than different. |
#14
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 18:21:26 -0500, Paul wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: This is a new system build that fails to boot from the SATA HDD. Instead, it appears to power down and restart, in a loop. Mobo: ASRock Z390 Taichi (original BIOS P1.20, since updated to P1.80) *RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws F4-3200C16Q-64GVK (4x16GB) *CPU: Intel Core i7-8700 Asus optical drive scavenged from parts drawer Samsung 2TB 5400RPM SATA HDD scavenged from parts drawer PS2 keyboard USB mouse Onboard video (also tested with older PCIe video card) *The CPU and RAM are on ASRock's approved compatible list for this mobo. With all parts on hand, I built the new system on a non-conductive table, using the mobo's non-static envelope for additional protection. I like to do the initial build outside of a case to make sure everything works before I go to the trouble of physically installing everything inside the case. The CPU and stock cooler installed without issue, with the stock cooler coming from the factory with heat transfer compound already applied. I installed a single memory module in slot A1 (closest to CPU). I connected a known working PSU (Corsair vx550w), the PS2 keyboard and the USB mouse. I connected a monitor via HDMI to the onboard video and fired it up. No optical drive or HDD connected at this point. The PSU is connected by the standard 24-pin connector and the 8-pin EPS12v connector. The mobo has a separate 4-pin ATX12v connector, which remains unconnected. ASRock tech support says that's fine. With no boot devices connected, the system came up directly in the BIOS screen, where everything looked normal. The CPU and RAM were recognized; the CPU fan RPM was reported as about 1580 RPM and CPU temp at 34C (later stabilizing at about 38-45C, depending on activity). I shut it down, plugged in a USB thumb drive with Memtest+ 6.00 on it, and started back up. As the only available boot device, the system automatically booted into the Memtest program. (Fast forward here, but I tested an individual RAM stick in slot A1, then B1, then A2, and finally B2. Then I jumped ahead and installed all 4 memory modules and let Memtest run overnight. Absolutely no issues so far, but I removed all but the A1 module before proceeding to the next test.) Next, I removed the Memtest USB thumb drive and connected the optical drive via SATA. I inserted a known good Linux Mint 19 disc and started the system. The 'live' Linux environment came up without any issues. I temporarily connected the breadboard system to my LAN and browsed the net for a period of time to watch for issues, but everything was fine. Next, I shut down and connected a single Samsung 2TB 5400 SATA HDD and restarted the system. Again, I booted the Linux live environment, but this time I elected to install Linux to the HDD. That completed without issue. The next step would be to boot into that new Linux install. When I was ready, I removed the Linux disc from the optical drive and rebooted, expecting the system to boot into Linux from the HDD. I got to the expected grub menu, where I have 4 choices and the first choice is the default: Linux Mint 19. Pressing Enter or allowing the timer to expire, the next thing that happens is all of the LEDs (there are quite a few on this mobo) go out, the CPU fan stops spinning, and after 2-3 seconds, the system powers up again, repeating the behavior described. It gets to the grub menu, then whether I intervene or not, it powers down and restarts, in a loop. === Status so far: Stable in the BIOS screens with no storage devices connected. Stable in Memtest when run from USB thumb drive. Stable in the live Linux environment when run from optical disc. **Unable to boot into Linux from the SATA HDD.** === I grabbed a second Samsung 2TB SATA HDD and different SATA cable, then installed Linux to that drive. I got exactly the same behavior described above. Next, with the SATA HDD still connected, I chose the Memtest option from the grub menu. A slightly older version comes up, 5.01 rather than the 6.00 that I have on the USB thumb drive, but Memtest comes up and runs successfully. Thinking it's possibly a too-weak PSU at 550W, I swapped in the 650W PSU from another working system, a Corsair tx650w, but it made absolutely no difference, so I went back to the 550W unit. Online PSU calculators tell me that I need between 230W and 340W, depending on the calculator, so adding a bit for headroom they think I should be OK with 350W to 450W, indicating to me that 550 and 650 are well into the safe area. Thinking it's an overheated CPU, I can see in the BIOS screen and in Memtest that the CPU temp hovers at 38-45C, but usually stays right around 40-41C. The heat fins on the CPU cooler appear to be at room temperature, but then I'm only running Memtest or viewing the BIOS screens, so not any appreciable load. (Yes, it's UEFI, but I'm used to calling it BIOS.) Thinking it's RAM that's not being properly recognized, I see in the BIOS that it's recognized as exactly what G.Skill says it should be: "DDR4-3200 PC4-25600 CL 16-18-18-38 1.35v" ASRock suggested RMA'ing the mobo and Newegg agreed, so I did. When the replacement arrived the other day, I repeated all of the steps listed above and eventually arrived at exactly the same place: === Status so far: Stable in the BIOS screens with no storage devices connected. Stable in Memtest when run from USB thumb drive. Stable in the live Linux environment when run from optical disc. **Unable to boot into Linux from the SATA HDD.** === Beginning to doubt the integrity of the Linux DVD, even after its integrity check was successful and it's a disc that I've used successfully before, I downloaded and burned the latest Windows 10 ISO. Booting from the Windows 10 disc, I get to the point where it starts to copy files to the HDD, then the system powers down, LEDs and CPU fan off, then 2-3 seconds later it powers up again and starts the Windows install from scratch. Even though I was able to install Linux twice on the first HDD and once on the second HDD, I couldn't get the system to stay up long enough to get Windows installed. I also tried burning the Windows 10 ISO to a USB thumb drive, but I couldn't get the system to stay up long enough to get Windows installed that way, either. BTW, there are 8 SATA ports on the mobo, 6 on one controller and 2 on another controller. I tried SATA ports from both groups. I'm currently on page 58 of 491 pages on the ASRock forums, and so far I've seen two others with a "system powers down and restarts" issue, but no resolution provided. I've built at least several hundred PC systems for people since the early 1990's, most of which have gone smoothly, but this one currently has me stumped. This build is supposed to be for me, if I can get it working. At this point, I'm not sure where to go next. - Is it running out of power? Do I need a newer, bigger, PSU? - Is there an issue with the CPU? - Should I chalk this expensive mobo, my first ASRock, up to experience and go with something from ASUS or Gigabyte? Do you have a Kill-O-Watt meter ? I've been meaning to get one for years. They aren't that expensive. My Test System right now, varies from 100W to 350W (furmark). Booting draws as much as 170W, which suggests the CPU is railed on one core during parts of POST. I don't think I have any PSUs in the house, that could not power the system in that state. Only Furmark would be in danger of tipping over the most gutless supply. I was rather surprised what it takes to wake my new video card up. Even playing BF2 it was only drawing 130W or so. During installation, install media needs to be decompressed. On Linux, it's a squashfs perhaps. On Windows, it's their "fancy compressor which compresses as good as 7ZIP or RAR". These need to be decompressed during installation phase. Windows in the past, has elected to use more than one core during decompression. This implies (perhaps) that each file could be compressed individually. So more than one file could be processed at a time, depending on source media read rate. if you expect to do a good job of maximizing power consumption, you'll need Furmark (good) or Prime95 (less). If the Linux LiveCD will boot, you can go to mersenne.org/downloads and get the static linked Linux Prime95 and run the torture test. That will heat up the CPU nicely. Using lmsensors or equivalent, should allow monitoring CPU temps. At the moment, the situation has deteriorated to the point where the only peripheral connected is the optical drive, and yet it still won't boot as it did before. Previously, that combo would not only boot up, but I could have a HDD connected and tell Linux to install there. Disconnecting the optical drive and inserting a LiveCD on USB gives the same results - no boot, loss of power, pause, restart, loop. I'll let it rest for a bit and then try again. Got a $20 SSD handy ? Install onto that ? ******* Install Linux from a USB key... to a USB key ? The intention in this case, is to avoid SATA entirely. See above, even a single optical drive or USB stick is apparently enough to tip it over at the moment, let alone two of something. You would be creating a slash ("/") and swap on the USB key and installing file by file as normal. This isn't particularly good for the USB key of course, but it's just for a test, not for long-term running. ******* Seatools has a USB bootable option. AFAIK the Samsung division was bought by Seagate ? Maybe (by now) Samsung branded drives are included ? https://www.seagate.com/ca/en/support/downloads/ Running a HDD test, would prove whether it's "just" HDD access that tips it over. Well, right now, it's USB, SATA HDD, m.2 NVMe, and optical, any *one* of which are enough to tip it over. ******* I would take one last thorough pass through the BIOS settings, to see if there are any power limiters or something. There's got to be a hint in there somewhere. It was ASRock support who firmly stated that if the setup defaults don't work to boot the system, then I should RMA it, so I RMA'd the first board. Now that the replacement behaves exactly the same way, I'm not sure what to think. To me, it has always smelled like a lack-of-power issue, but I figured what are the odds that two PSUs that work fine in other systems, one with 16 internal drives, wouldn't work on this system with a freakin' USB or optical drive. This board/CPU combo may be a beast, though. ******* In the past, some BIOS did a poor job of resource planning. Most OS installed involve "PNP OS: No", which means that the BIOS plans the memory and address map. In one case, writes to RAM were actually writing to a USB overcurrent register, and causing an overcurrent message to appear on the screen. And this is a side effect of the BIOS not being able to plan a memory map properly. This typically happened on older systems with 8GB limits, where the user installed 4GB of RAM, and then... the BIOS would lose its mind. ******* Well, really, I'm stumped. Sounds like a design flaw. But I wouldn't let that stop me from having a little fun and running the more obscure test cases. Before trying a Gigabyte board. My last couple of boards have been Gigabyte and they were stable to the point of being boring, where boring is a good thing. This is my first ASRock and I'm not sure what I was thinking, other than "hey, the reviews are good, let's try it". Dumping the Samsung HDD and testing something else would be relatively high up my list. Just in case. I've been letting it all rest with the power off while I type this. Once I hit send, I'll try again to see if I can get at least as far as I got earlier. ******* The best part about some of the stuff I've run, is not remembering the results at all :-) https://www.easyuefi.com/wintousb/ "Hasleo software" "best free Windows To Go Creator" I think there is supposed to be a free version, maybe that's it. A USB-to-go would allow running Windows without an install step. I think I might have also booted an Enterprise Windows VM and tried to make an OTG stick from there too, in VirtualBox, with USB passthru. Hasleo might be an attempt to do that with non-Enterprise windows. Interesting, thanks. I don't think I'm at the point where I can try that since I need it to actually boot something without powering down, but I'll keep it in mind. |
#15
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 20:32:12 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote: I haven't made it to the 'drivers' stage yet. The system shuts down, pauses, and restarts during the initial copying of files from DVD to HDD. On a related note, the official stance is that only Win10 drivers will ever be available for this motherboard/CPU combo. For the moment, I'm keeping things simple, I hope, by skipping Windows and trying to install Linux. Officially, there will be no Win7/Win8 drivers for this generation of hardware. That's not to say that people aren't hacking drivers to see if they can make it work, but I'm far from having to worry about that. So far, I'm just trying Linux and Win10, with equally disappointing results. https://www.asrock.com/support/index.asp?cat=Drivers I see that now, they're all about Windows 10 and exclusively. The "other Linux tests", apparently, as that's also out of official support range. (Haven't watched it - running behind TOR.) https://level1techs.com/video/asrock...iew-linux-test Only one mention of it being sensitive, contrary to otherwise more generally a stable piece of well-regarded hardware. https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/co...ew_linux_test/ Wouldn't be right to make presuming remarks about throttling back on the BIOS for the least demanding or fail-safe scenario. Also, you've already been there, at a ASRock support line, to try and convince them to convince you for a reason to keep it when Windows 10 doesn't accept an otherwise initial and adequately built assembly. And they've been fair then to give you another board to replicate an unsuccessful correction. At some point it becomes an imposition to continued changing parts, scrambling over BIOS settings, when you've reasonably met minimum expectations ASRock and exclusively Microsoft Windows10 intended for this board. And you don't want to hear about a couple MBs I was unhappy enough to return, nor those I didn't and got stuck with. It did happen, nevertheless. Customer comes first, that's it. It's your money and your right to be suitably impressed by your choice in a purchase agreement. |
#16
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATAHDD
On 12/17/2018 12:11 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
This is a new system build that fails to boot from the SATA HDD. Instead, it appears to power down and restart, in a loop. Mobo: ASRock Z390 Taichi (original BIOS P1.20, since updated to P1.80) *RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws F4-3200C16Q-64GVK (4x16GB) *CPU: Intel Core i7-8700 Asus optical drive scavenged from parts drawer Samsung 2TB 5400RPM SATA HDD scavenged from parts drawer PS2 keyboard USB mouse Onboard video (also tested with older PCIe video card) *The CPU and RAM are on ASRock's approved compatible list for this mobo. With all parts on hand, I built the new system on a non-conductive table, using the mobo's non-static envelope for additional protection. I like to do the initial build outside of a case to make sure everything works before I go to the trouble of physically installing everything inside the case. The CPU and stock cooler installed without issue, with the stock cooler coming from the factory with heat transfer compound already applied. I installed a single memory module in slot A1 (closest to CPU). I connected a known working PSU (Corsair vx550w), the PS2 keyboard and the USB mouse. I connected a monitor via HDMI to the onboard video and fired it up. No optical drive or HDD connected at this point. The PSU is connected by the standard 24-pin connector and the 8-pin EPS12v connector. The mobo has a separate 4-pin ATX12v connector, which remains unconnected. ASRock tech support says that's fine. With no boot devices connected, the system came up directly in the BIOS screen, where everything looked normal. The CPU and RAM were recognized; the CPU fan RPM was reported as about 1580 RPM and CPU temp at 34C (later stabilizing at about 38-45C, depending on activity). I shut it down, plugged in a USB thumb drive with Memtest+ 6.00 on it, and started back up. As the only available boot device, the system automatically booted into the Memtest program. (Fast forward here, but I tested an individual RAM stick in slot A1, then B1, then A2, and finally B2. Then I jumped ahead and installed all 4 memory modules and let Memtest run overnight. Absolutely no issues so far, but I removed all but the A1 module before proceeding to the next test.) Next, I removed the Memtest USB thumb drive and connected the optical drive via SATA. I inserted a known good Linux Mint 19 disc and started the system. The 'live' Linux environment came up without any issues. I temporarily connected the breadboard system to my LAN and browsed the net for a period of time to watch for issues, but everything was fine. Next, I shut down and connected a single Samsung 2TB 5400 SATA HDD and restarted the system. Again, I booted the Linux live environment, but this time I elected to install Linux to the HDD. That completed without issue. The next step would be to boot into that new Linux install. When I was ready, I removed the Linux disc from the optical drive and rebooted, expecting the system to boot into Linux from the HDD. I got to the expected grub menu, where I have 4 choices and the first choice is the default: Linux Mint 19. Pressing Enter or allowing the timer to expire, the next thing that happens is all of the LEDs (there are quite a few on this mobo) go out, the CPU fan stops spinning, and after 2-3 seconds, the system powers up again, repeating the behavior described. It gets to the grub menu, then whether I intervene or not, it powers down and restarts, in a loop. === Status so far: Stable in the BIOS screens with no storage devices connected. Stable in Memtest when run from USB thumb drive. Stable in the live Linux environment when run from optical disc. **Unable to boot into Linux from the SATA HDD.** === I grabbed a second Samsung 2TB SATA HDD and different SATA cable, then installed Linux to that drive. I got exactly the same behavior described above. Next, with the SATA HDD still connected, I chose the Memtest option from the grub menu. A slightly older version comes up, 5.01 rather than the 6.00 that I have on the USB thumb drive, but Memtest comes up and runs successfully. Thinking it's possibly a too-weak PSU at 550W, I swapped in the 650W PSU from another working system, a Corsair tx650w, but it made absolutely no difference, so I went back to the 550W unit. Online PSU calculators tell me that I need between 230W and 340W, depending on the calculator, so adding a bit for headroom they think I should be OK with 350W to 450W, indicating to me that 550 and 650 are well into the safe area. Thinking it's an overheated CPU, I can see in the BIOS screen and in Memtest that the CPU temp hovers at 38-45C, but usually stays right around 40-41C. The heat fins on the CPU cooler appear to be at room temperature, but then I'm only running Memtest or viewing the BIOS screens, so not any appreciable load. (Yes, it's UEFI, but I'm used to calling it BIOS.) Thinking it's RAM that's not being properly recognized, I see in the BIOS that it's recognized as exactly what G.Skill says it should be: "DDR4-3200 PC4-25600 CL 16-18-18-38 1.35v" ASRock suggested RMA'ing the mobo and Newegg agreed, so I did. When the replacement arrived the other day, I repeated all of the steps listed above and eventually arrived at exactly the same place: === Status so far: Stable in the BIOS screens with no storage devices connected. Stable in Memtest when run from USB thumb drive. Stable in the live Linux environment when run from optical disc. **Unable to boot into Linux from the SATA HDD.** === Beginning to doubt the integrity of the Linux DVD, even after its integrity check was successful and it's a disc that I've used successfully before, I downloaded and burned the latest Windows 10 ISO. Booting from the Windows 10 disc, I get to the point where it starts to copy files to the HDD, then the system powers down, LEDs and CPU fan off, then 2-3 seconds later it powers up again and starts the Windows install from scratch. Even though I was able to install Linux twice on the first HDD and once on the second HDD, I couldn't get the system to stay up long enough to get Windows installed. I also tried burning the Windows 10 ISO to a USB thumb drive, but I couldn't get the system to stay up long enough to get Windows installed that way, either. BTW, there are 8 SATA ports on the mobo, 6 on one controller and 2 on another controller. I tried SATA ports from both groups. I'm currently on page 58 of 491 pages on the ASRock forums, and so far I've seen two others with a "system powers down and restarts" issue, but no resolution provided. I've built at least several hundred PC systems for people since the early 1990's, most of which have gone smoothly, but this one currently has me stumped. This build is supposed to be for me, if I can get it working. At this point, I'm not sure where to go next. - Is it running out of power? Do I need a newer, bigger, PSU? - Is there an issue with the CPU? - Should I chalk this expensive mobo, my first ASRock, up to experience and go with something from ASUS or Gigabyte? Have you tried raising the CPU voltage slightly? My ASRock Z270 Extreme will reboot on startup if the CPU voltage is too low. It's worth a try although I'm at a loss to understand how it would boot from a DVD. Charlie |
#17
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATAHDD
Char Jackson wrote:
This afternoon I took a recent Win10 ISO image and burned it to an m.2 NVMe drive. I disconnected the optical drive and the SATA HDD, then installed the m.2 drive. Twice, out of about 20 boot attempts, I saw a flash of the initial login screen from Win10, but in every case the system would power down, pause, and restart. So it's not a Samsung 2TB SATA HDD issue. A thread with a good deal of weirdness in it. http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/...rd-owners.html One person may have damaged a CPU. Hard to believe they don't test this stuff and monitor the voltage settings the BIOS is using, under lab conditions. Paul |
#18
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATAHDD
On 12/17/2018 3:18 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: This is a new system build that fails to boot from the SATA HDD. Instead, it appears to power down and restart, in a loop. Mobo: ASRock Z390 Taichi (original BIOS P1.20, since updated to P1.80) *RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws F4-3200C16Q-64GVK (4x16GB) *CPU: Intel Core i7-8700 Asus optical drive scavenged from parts drawer Samsung 2TB 5400RPM SATA HDD scavenged from parts drawer PS2 keyboard USB mouse Onboard video (also tested with older PCIe video card) *The CPU and RAM are on ASRock's approved compatible list for this mobo. With all parts on hand, I built the new system on a non-conductive table, using the mobo's non-static envelope for additional protection. I like to do the initial build outside of a case to make sure everything works before I go to the trouble of physically installing everything inside the case. The CPU and stock cooler installed without issue, with the stock cooler coming from the factory with heat transfer compound already applied. I installed a single memory module in slot A1 (closest to CPU). I connected a known working PSU (Corsair vx550w), the PS2 keyboard and the USB mouse. I connected a monitor via HDMI to the onboard video and fired it up. No optical drive or HDD connected at this point. The PSU is connected by the standard 24-pin connector and the 8-pin EPS12v connector. The mobo has a separate 4-pin ATX12v connector, which remains unconnected. ASRock tech support says that's fine. With no boot devices connected, the system came up directly in the BIOS screen, where everything looked normal. The CPU and RAM were recognized; the CPU fan RPM was reported as about 1580 RPM and CPU temp at 34C (later stabilizing at about 38-45C, depending on activity). I shut it down, plugged in a USB thumb drive with Memtest+ 6.00 on it, and started back up. As the only available boot device, the system automatically booted into the Memtest program. (Fast forward here, but I tested an individual RAM stick in slot A1, then B1, then A2, and finally B2. Then I jumped ahead and installed all 4 memory modules and let Memtest run overnight. Absolutely no issues so far, but I removed all but the A1 module before proceeding to the next test.) Next, I removed the Memtest USB thumb drive and connected the optical drive via SATA. I inserted a known good Linux Mint 19 disc and started the system. The 'live' Linux environment came up without any issues. I temporarily connected the breadboard system to my LAN and browsed the net for a period of time to watch for issues, but everything was fine. Next, I shut down and connected a single Samsung 2TB 5400 SATA HDD and restarted the system. Again, I booted the Linux live environment, but this time I elected to install Linux to the HDD. That completed without issue. The next step would be to boot into that new Linux install. When I was ready, I removed the Linux disc from the optical drive and rebooted, expecting the system to boot into Linux from the HDD. I got to the expected grub menu, where I have 4 choices and the first choice is the default: Linux Mint 19. Pressing Enter or allowing the timer to expire, the next thing that happens is all of the LEDs (there are quite a few on this mobo) go out, the CPU fan stops spinning, and after 2-3 seconds, the system powers up again, repeating the behavior described. It gets to the grub menu, then whether I intervene or not, it powers down and restarts, in a loop. === Status so far: Stable in the BIOS screens with no storage devices connected. Stable in Memtest when run from USB thumb drive. Stable in the live Linux environment when run from optical disc. **Unable to boot into Linux from the SATA HDD.** === I grabbed a second Samsung 2TB SATA HDD and different SATA cable, then installed Linux to that drive. I got exactly the same behavior described above. Next, with the SATA HDD still connected, I chose the Memtest option from the grub menu. A slightly older version comes up, 5.01 rather than the 6.00 that I have on the USB thumb drive, but Memtest comes up and runs successfully. Thinking it's possibly a too-weak PSU at 550W, I swapped in the 650W PSU from another working system, a Corsair tx650w, but it made absolutely no difference, so I went back to the 550W unit. Online PSU calculators tell me that I need between 230W and 340W, depending on the calculator, so adding a bit for headroom they think I should be OK with 350W to 450W, indicating to me that 550 and 650 are well into the safe area. Thinking it's an overheated CPU, I can see in the BIOS screen and in Memtest that the CPU temp hovers at 38-45C, but usually stays right around 40-41C. The heat fins on the CPU cooler appear to be at room temperature, but then I'm only running Memtest or viewing the BIOS screens, so not any appreciable load. (Yes, it's UEFI, but I'm used to calling it BIOS.) Thinking it's RAM that's not being properly recognized, I see in the BIOS that it's recognized as exactly what G.Skill says it should be: "DDR4-3200 PC4-25600 CL 16-18-18-38 1.35v" ASRock suggested RMA'ing the mobo and Newegg agreed, so I did. When the replacement arrived the other day, I repeated all of the steps listed above and eventually arrived at exactly the same place: === Status so far: Stable in the BIOS screens with no storage devices connected. Stable in Memtest when run from USB thumb drive. Stable in the live Linux environment when run from optical disc. **Unable to boot into Linux from the SATA HDD.** === Beginning to doubt the integrity of the Linux DVD, even after its integrity check was successful and it's a disc that I've used successfully before, I downloaded and burned the latest Windows 10 ISO. Booting from the Windows 10 disc, I get to the point where it starts to copy files to the HDD, then the system powers down, LEDs and CPU fan off, then 2-3 seconds later it powers up again and starts the Windows install from scratch. Even though I was able to install Linux twice on the first HDD and once on the second HDD, I couldn't get the system to stay up long enough to get Windows installed. I also tried burning the Windows 10 ISO to a USB thumb drive, but I couldn't get the system to stay up long enough to get Windows installed that way, either. BTW, there are 8 SATA ports on the mobo, 6 on one controller and 2 on another controller. I tried SATA ports from both groups. I'm currently on page 58 of 491 pages on the ASRock forums, and so far I've seen two others with a "system powers down and restarts" issue, but no resolution provided. I've built at least several hundred PC systems for people since the early 1990's, most of which have gone smoothly, but this one currently has me stumped. This build is supposed to be for me, if I can get it working. At this point, I'm not sure where to go next. - Is it running out of power? Do I need a newer, bigger, PSU? - Is there an issue with the CPU? - Should I chalk this expensive mobo, my first ASRock, up to experience and go with something from ASUS or Gigabyte? With no drives drives connected, just 1 memory module, and using onboard video (BIOS configured to use the i7 CPU's graphics), the 550W PSU would be more than sufficient to provide power to that minimal non-bootable setup. You can load GRUB which is in the bootstrap code of the MBR, so the HDD is getting enough power for its surge current to start spinning. There's enough power for that but as soon as you try to run an OS from the HDD then you get the power loss. Mint runs from a USB boot drive. Presuming that loads the CPU the same as for Mint on an HDD, the CPU is ruled out, like the paste being absent or badly applied, no contact with the heatsink, or its fan not spinning. CPU temperature is okay. CPU fan RPM seems low but if the temps are okay then hopefully the BIOS' range on CPU RPM goes lower than 1500 RPM before it does a safety shutdown. I'd still look at the thermal settings in BIOS to be sure they were okay with the hardware setup. The Corsair vx550w has only one +12V rail. No having to balance loads across rails. I was thinking you could try using one of the Molex power connectors with an adapter to a SATA power connector to put the HDD on a different rail, but there isn't another rail. This isn't a modular PSU, so a big mess of cabling coming out of it. Have you tried a different SATA power connector from the PSU? The VX is their value series, so not top of the line models. That PSU is probably way outside its 5-year warranty (looks like it showed up around 2007). Many PSUs lose about 5% of their rated capacity per year (assuming they ever could sustain the rated capacity in the first place). By now, it might be down to 56% of its rated capacity. I'd check the mobo's specs, for 1 memory module, and the i7 CPU to see if their total power draw was under 312 watts. Unless I paid $200 for a high-quality PSU, I'd probably replace the PSU along with the CMOS battery after 6-8 years (users have been holding onto the PCs for longer, and the same with their cars, so before it wasn't an issue regarding gradual capacity loss since most PCs got replaced before 6 years old). Remember that Corsair does not manufacturer anything. They spec out what they want from the factory and sell on their brand name. No idea who actually made that Corsair PSU. Maybe looking inside might reveal the maker from from stickers inside. A lot of PSUs are made by CWT (Channel Well Tech, http://www.cwt.com.tw/), like for Thermaltake (poor but depends on who is the OEM for a model) and Corsair (fair to good). Quite often the same OEM produces varying quality produces which is dependent on the requirements specified by the designer/customer (whomever is stamping their brand on the PSU). I don't know they have changed their style from the past when you could tell CWT was the OEM because of all the green tape inside the PSU for many of their models (their brand or rebranded), for example: http://s3.amazonaws.com/hs-wordpress...38/370_071.jpg You might also look at the label on the transformer to see "CWT" there. You might discove the OEM by looking inside. If it is an 80-plus certificed PSU, there should be a report, and that will identify who is the real manufacturer. I like to stay with PSUs whose brand is the same as the manufacture or they actually design the PSU and require the plant they hire to build to specs (e.g., FSP who underrate their PSUs, Enermax). https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...er,2913-4.html Note: The charts may be too small to read, even when clicked to enlarge. Click on an image, right-click on it, open in new window, and then magnify. Yellow = OEMs - who actually manufacturers the PSU (and may sell under their own name while also doling out for rebranding). Orange = Design/spec the PSU but have someone else make it. Gray = No tech involvement, just reselling something usually unknown or low end (value models). Notice FSP is a design & manufacture brand. Corsair is a design & someone-else-manufacture brand (CWT, Seasonic, Chicony, Flextronics). The landscape may have changed since that article was published. I don't refer such charts (but found one this time). Instead I just remember a few OEMs that also sell under their own brand, like FSP, Enermax, HEC, Seasonic. Not every model they've ever made is perfect but generally they produce good to excellent PSUs. That also doesn't mean Corsair isn't good, just that they don't produce but just spec out what they want produced, or they select existing products that meet their specs. They rebrand. The same for OCZ products that a lot of users like to buy. Oh, you aren't overclocking the CPU in the BIOS settings, are you? Just start out with the default settings and use SPD for memory timings. From all our testing, my guess it you need to test with a newer and perhaps better PSU. OK, let's talk about power supplies. I have zero experience with new power supplies, so consider this "something to think about" rather than a proclamation of truth. Does your power supply have individually regulated outputs? Back in the day, computer power supplies had ONE regulated power supply, 5V. OK, -5 and -12 might have had linear regulators...but the point is the same. The other supplies were open loop and determined by the turns ratio on the transformer. Under normal circumstances, that worked fine. Problems happened when you had loads that the designers didn't predict. In a new mother board, where does the cpu power come from? If it's switched down from 12V, there may not be very much 5V load on an unpopulated motherboard. The flux in the power transformer is controlled by the 5V regulator. If the 5V is lightly loaded, there isn't enough energy in core to maintain the 12V supply. The solution is to put MORE load on the 5V supply. People found this out when they tried to run their CB radio off a computer power supply without any 5V load. This is a very long shot, but you've used up the easy targets. Time to think about unlikely scenarios. |
#19
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
Char Jackson wrote:
Hmm, I started wondering about UEFI which, I believe, is used by your mobo. I haven't delved into that. When you boot using the USB thumb drive, I'm not sure how UEFI is involved. When booting from a SSD or HDD, UEFI is involved. The whole UEFI scheme was Microsoft wanting to lockdown an installation of their Windows product. It seems to irritate Linux users because of the SecureBoot protection. Can you find a SecureBoot option in the BIOS and see what happens when you disable it? https://www.avira.com/en/support-for...tail/kbid/1811 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ng-secure-boot You'd think they have the firmware issue some bitch message that your OS wasn't properly signed but knowing Microsoft they might've convinced the BIOS makers to just immediately shutdown without a clue to the user. |
#20
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
Paul wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: This afternoon I took a recent Win10 ISO image and burned it to an m.2 NVMe drive. I disconnected the optical drive and the SATA HDD, then installed the m.2 drive. Twice, out of about 20 boot attempts, I saw a flash of the initial login screen from Win10, but in every case the system would power down, pause, and restart. So it's not a Samsung 2TB SATA HDD issue. A thread with a good deal of weirdness in it. http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/...rd-owners.html One person may have damaged a CPU. Hard to believe they don't test this stuff and monitor the voltage settings the BIOS is using, under lab conditions. Paul Flashing back to 1.30 (from 1.80) would be one of those "frickin' frackin' son-of-a-brishing azzholes". When you upgrade the BIOS, did the updater offer to save the current code into a .bin file (so you could revert)? You could then go back to 1.20 that came in the mobo, see if that works, try 1.30 (or something just incrementally next in version), and keep walking forward until the mobo puked again, and then step back a version. I've had to do that scheme when updating video drivers. When there is a new version, very likely the old compatibility with old games gets discarded in favor of new code for compatibility with new[er] games. I have several old games. When I updated the video driver to the latest version, my old games crashed. Go back to what I had, they worked. I did a sort of binary update: pick an update version halfway between what I had that works to the latest available one. If it worked, halve the remaining range upward. If not, halve the range to work downward. As I recall, I ended up using a 3 major version lesser than the currently available latest version to keep my games going. I only went through this mess because there something fixed in later versions that I needed; else, it would've left it as-is (don't "fix" if not broken - the fix can break what was working - new code means new bugs). |
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