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#81
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cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage
On 10/20/2015 4:29 PM, Paul wrote:
mike wrote: That advice is always correct, except when it isn't. Designers sometimes do stupid things to reduce costs. Sometimes advisers extrapolate their experience to situations where it doesn't apply and express it with arrogance. Check out the schematic for a Compaq Aero 4-25. The only thing between the battery and the charge jack is a FET switch. They use the current limit in the power brick to limit the charge current. If you use a charger with a higher current limit, you overheat the battery. If you use an unlimited current source, the FET catches fire. Somewhere around here I have a motherbord with a hole burned in it. Expressing advice concisely and completely with maximum arrogance to a newbie without a voltmeter or the means or understanding to verify the advice is irresponsible... even if it is correct ALMOST all of the time. Sometimes, the advice doesn't apply. You missed a golden opportunity. I already provided a link from badcaps.net, with a *schematic* for the laptop. Apply for a login account, so you can download the schematic. I already had an account on badcaps, so could get this immediately. "ASUS N61JQ won't start" http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42461 You can apply your keen analytical skills to that schematic and tell us how the unit works. PDF page 89 has the battery controller (MB39A132). PDF page 60 has the DC jack with inductive surge (undershoot) protection. And to help you on your way, this doc gives you an overview on the MB39A132 feature set. "DC/DC Converter IC for Charging Li-ion Batteries MB39A132 ..." http://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/EDG...nd/26-3e/7.pdf What do you notice on Figure 9 Page 5 ? It uses an SMPS with high side/low side MOSFETs for controlling the charging of the battery. What can you feed an SMPS with ? All sorts of stuff. Very flexible. What may not be flexible, is some of the voltage thresholds set to work with a 19V adapter. (The chip detects when the AC adapter is plugged in.) I got a datasheet for the MB39A132 here. But that isn't necessary needed right away. http://master-chip.ru/store/files/b7...8/mb39a132.pdf ******* Your quoted material, is from a 20 year old laptop, a laptop with NiMH battery technology. What are the odds that a current generation laptop is as crude as that ? You yourself contributed to this faq. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/pc-hardware...s/compaq-aero/ Paul Well, these newsgroups last forever. Just because you know what you're doing, doesn't mean that everyone else does. I already stated that it's likely that it's OK. I'm merely responding to the knowitalls who state with authority that they have all the answers, when they really don't actually know EVERYTHING. It's very easy to take some experience and extrapolate it to the point where it gets someone else in trouble. Too much typing and not nearly enough thinking. Even 20 years later, there are engineers still ****ing up designs. You find out after it's too late. |
#82
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cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage
mike wrote:
Even 20 years later, there are engineers still ****ing up designs. You find out after it's too late. The charger industry is proud of abusing electronic components to come up with cheaper and cheaper solutions. This is why my Black and Decker cordless screwdriver reduced three battery packs to puddles of goo. The charging solution has absolutely no merit at all (no charge termination). On the other hand, I like my car battery charger, which uses only a transformer and selenium rectifiers to make a "high impedance" charging circuit. The packaging claims an amount of current will flow, which is never achieved. So it's pretty hard to cook a battery (or charge it quickly) with the charger. But in terms of construction, they couldn't make it much cheaper - removing the selenium rectifier thingy would leave you with only an AC transformer. If your laptop had NiCd batteries in it, I'm sure they could have cut a few more corners. It's the fact that Lithium Ion battery packs are so dangerous (from a corporate liability point of view), that a lot more care is put into them. If it wasn't for Lithium Ion, we might never have seen precision charging chips. Paul |
#83
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cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage
On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:10:38 -0700, mike Gave us:
I'm merely responding to the knowitalls who state with authority that they have all the answers, when they really don't actually know EVERYTHING. I NEVER made any such claim. That retarded horse**** ONLY came out of you, dip****. I spent a decade designing switch mode power supplies, and I know what I know and never claimed to know more. But I certainly know more than a putz who cannot even get Linux, or basic Ohm's Law. |
#84
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cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage
On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:10:38 -0700, mike Gave us:
It's very easy to take some experience and extrapolate it to the point where it gets someone else in trouble. Yes, you have been trolling this Linux newsgroup for years with inane bull**** extrapolated from your bent brain. |
#85
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cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage
On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 03:31:17 -0400, Paul Gave us:
mike wrote: Even 20 years later, there are engineers still ****ing up designs. You find out after it's too late. The charger industry is proud of abusing electronic components to come up with cheaper and cheaper solutions. This is why my Black and Decker cordless screwdriver reduced three battery packs to puddles of goo. The charging solution has absolutely no merit at all (no charge termination). The battery technology in such devices is far less advanced than that used in a portable computing device, not to mention the "chargers" they incorporated. On the other hand, I like my car battery charger, which uses only a transformer and selenium rectifiers to make a "high impedance" charging circuit. Lead acid batteries merely need a voltage greater than the battery voltage to take on a charge. They do not car about ripple. Device chargers are not only meant to charge the device battery, but the power they feed must be clean enough to power the device as well. The packaging claims an amount of current will flow, which is never achieved. So it's pretty hard to cook a battery (or charge it quickly) with the charger. Car batteries can literally explode if overcharged. But in terms of construction, they couldn't make it much cheaper - They only need to rectify the AC so that it make DC pulses which are higher in voltage than the battery. They are not meant to power a device, nor do they have to provide what is known as 'a clean source'. removing the selenium rectifier thingy would leave you with only an AC transformer. No ****. And they usually use a simple diode rectifier or diode bridge, not expensive Selenium. If your laptop had NiCd batteries in it, I'm sure they could have cut a few more corners. Those batteries age and that is why they were phased out for more advanced power storage devices. It's the fact that Lithium Ion battery packs are so dangerous (from a corporate liability point of view), They are dangerous from a real POV as well, not simply some lame liability like lawn darts, or "coffee is hot". that a lot more care is put into them. More is done because the 'juice' they provide must be CLEAN for the device to not puke all over itself. If it wasn't for Lithium Ion, we might never have seen precision charging chips. |
#86
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cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage
"Paul" wrote in message ... mike wrote: Even 20 years later, there are engineers still ****ing up designs. You find out after it's too late. The charger industry is proud of abusing electronic components to come up with cheaper and cheaper solutions. This is why my Black and Decker cordless screwdriver reduced three battery packs to puddles of goo. The charging solution has absolutely no merit at all (no charge termination). On the other hand, I like my car battery charger, which uses only a transformer and selenium rectifiers to make a "high impedance" charging circuit. The packaging claims an amount of current will flow, which is never achieved. So it's pretty hard to cook a battery (or charge it quickly) with the charger. But in terms of construction, they couldn't make it much cheaper - removing the selenium rectifier thingy would leave you with only an AC transformer. If your laptop had NiCd batteries in it, I'm sure they could have cut a few more corners. It's the fact that Lithium Ion battery packs are so dangerous (from a corporate liability point of view), that a lot more care is put into them. If it wasn't for Lithium Ion, we might never have seen precision charging chips. Paul Thanks (Guru Paul, et al), for the clarification. I think everyone is "right" but just saying the same thing in their own unique ways. Sorry, I should have been more clear. Let me rephrase... For laptops (or more valuable equipment nowadays), if I stick with a compatible voltage (19V) AC adapter with sufficient power (90+W), I should be fine since more and more safety measures (like sensors) are designed in to protect valuable equipment. Safety measures designed in is directly proportional to value of equipment (both increase/decrease together). Any recommendations on resources (books, magazines, websites, etc.) on power for newbies? |
#87
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cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage
Adam wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message ... mike wrote: Even 20 years later, there are engineers still ****ing up designs. You find out after it's too late. The charger industry is proud of abusing electronic components to come up with cheaper and cheaper solutions. This is why my Black and Decker cordless screwdriver reduced three battery packs to puddles of goo. The charging solution has absolutely no merit at all (no charge termination). On the other hand, I like my car battery charger, which uses only a transformer and selenium rectifiers to make a "high impedance" charging circuit. The packaging claims an amount of current will flow, which is never achieved. So it's pretty hard to cook a battery (or charge it quickly) with the charger. But in terms of construction, they couldn't make it much cheaper - removing the selenium rectifier thingy would leave you with only an AC transformer. If your laptop had NiCd batteries in it, I'm sure they could have cut a few more corners. It's the fact that Lithium Ion battery packs are so dangerous (from a corporate liability point of view), that a lot more care is put into them. If it wasn't for Lithium Ion, we might never have seen precision charging chips. Paul Thanks (Guru Paul, et al), for the clarification. I think everyone is "right" but just saying the same thing in their own unique ways. Sorry, I should have been more clear. Let me rephrase... For laptops (or more valuable equipment nowadays), if I stick with a compatible voltage (19V) AC adapter with sufficient power (90+W), I should be fine since more and more safety measures (like sensors) are designed in to protect valuable equipment. Safety measures designed in is directly proportional to value of equipment (both increase/decrease together). Any recommendations on resources (books, magazines, websites, etc.) on power for newbies? Most of what I've learned, was by analysing stuff (schematics), or learning by making mistakes. To illustrate, there are three kinds of adapters for consumer electronics. These are general categories. 1) AC adapter (it's just a transformer) 2) Unregulated DC adapter (transformer, rectifiers, filter cap) DC voltage varies with loading. 3) Regulated DC adapter (SMPS, similar to ATX power supply design, isolated for shock protection, overcurrent detection with various behaviors on overcurrent). Complete switch-off being a common overcurrent behavior). Connect a 2 amp light bulb to a 2 amp adapter, it will shut off. Why ? The bulb draws 4 amps when it is cold, trips the OC immediately, and the adapter shuts off. OK, I bought a label maker one day. It had provision for battery operation. You were supposed to pour $$$ worth of dry cells into the thing. An optional adapter was available, at $50 !!! Well, naturally, being a cheap-skate, I wanted neither dry cells nor a $50 adapter. On the housing of the unit, next to the barrel connector for power, it said "7VDC", and had the symbol for center-positive power. So I bought a *regulated* 7VDC adapter and plugged it in. I verified the adapter made exactly 7V, and it did do that. With a fairly high current rating (so not likely to poop out on OC). So I try to print a label, and... nothing. So I eventually break down and buy the optional adapter for $50. Turns out it is unregulated. At no load, the adapter makes *10V* and at the instant the motor cranks the label through the print area, the voltage drops down to 7V due to the increased current draw. So it really needed the elevated (unspecified) 10V voltage to make the keyboard and display and control chip work. That lesson taught me, that the specification printed on the housing ("7VDC") could be regulated or unregulated, and there is no way to know which is appropriate. They kinda got you by the nuts. And that's learning by making mistakes. As for your laptop, I don't see a reason in what I've seen in the schematic so far, for there to be a dependency on adapter power rating. Your laptop is the 90W design. A 19V adapter of 90W or 135W should work. The charging circuit has control of what it is doing, and is not dependent on external impedance characteristics. The charger chip has slow start (inrush limit), so if the adapter is already plugged into the wall and you shove the barrel into the laptop jack, the adapter doesn't quit on OC. There is a clamp diode near the jack, so if the barrel is removed while the adapter is powered, the inductive kick-back is quenched. The design has a current sampling shunt, which implies the chip can sense the current. And knows if too much current is being drawn. And it has a fair number of MOSFETs to control various things. As long as MOSFETs are saturated (fully ON or fully OFF), they don't get all that warm. And that's important. It's easy to burn out a MOSFET with no heatsink, by turning it half-ON by design. This is why SMPS circuits take turns with MOSFETs fully ON or fully OFF, to achieve a desired result. The devices then get warm but not hot. There are adapters that have more than two wires, and that immediately makes me suspicious. It implies some form of control, or "adapter power rating checking" being done by the laptop. That tends to happen with stuff above 65W. You're likely to find 65W designs to be pretty simple and carefree. Anything above that, you should keep your eyes open, and do a bit of Googling to learn of the issues. Paul |
#88
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cannot power "on" ASUS laptop after power outage
"Paul" wrote in message ... Adam wrote: "Paul" wrote in message ... mike wrote: Even 20 years later, there are engineers still ****ing up designs. You find out after it's too late. The charger industry is proud of abusing electronic components to come up with cheaper and cheaper solutions. This is why my Black and Decker cordless screwdriver reduced three battery packs to puddles of goo. The charging solution has absolutely no merit at all (no charge termination). On the other hand, I like my car battery charger, which uses only a transformer and selenium rectifiers to make a "high impedance" charging circuit. The packaging claims an amount of current will flow, which is never achieved. So it's pretty hard to cook a battery (or charge it quickly) with the charger. But in terms of construction, they couldn't make it much cheaper - removing the selenium rectifier thingy would leave you with only an AC transformer. If your laptop had NiCd batteries in it, I'm sure they could have cut a few more corners. It's the fact that Lithium Ion battery packs are so dangerous (from a corporate liability point of view), that a lot more care is put into them. If it wasn't for Lithium Ion, we might never have seen precision charging chips. Paul Thanks (Guru Paul, et al), for the clarification. I think everyone is "right" but just saying the same thing in their own unique ways. Sorry, I should have been more clear. Let me rephrase... For laptops (or more valuable equipment nowadays), if I stick with a compatible voltage (19V) AC adapter with sufficient power (90+W), I should be fine since more and more safety measures (like sensors) are designed in to protect valuable equipment. Safety measures designed in is directly proportional to value of equipment (both increase/decrease together). Any recommendations on resources (books, magazines, websites, etc.) on power for newbies? Most of what I've learned, was by analysing stuff (schematics), or learning by making mistakes. To illustrate, there are three kinds of adapters for consumer electronics. These are general categories. 1) AC adapter (it's just a transformer) 2) Unregulated DC adapter (transformer, rectifiers, filter cap) DC voltage varies with loading. 3) Regulated DC adapter (SMPS, similar to ATX power supply design, isolated for shock protection, overcurrent detection with various behaviors on overcurrent). Complete switch-off being a common overcurrent behavior). Connect a 2 amp light bulb to a 2 amp adapter, it will shut off. Why ? The bulb draws 4 amps when it is cold, trips the OC immediately, and the adapter shuts off. OK, I bought a label maker one day. It had provision for battery operation. You were supposed to pour $$$ worth of dry cells into the thing. An optional adapter was available, at $50 !!! Well, naturally, being a cheap-skate, I wanted neither dry cells nor a $50 adapter. On the housing of the unit, next to the barrel connector for power, it said "7VDC", and had the symbol for center-positive power. So I bought a *regulated* 7VDC adapter and plugged it in. I verified the adapter made exactly 7V, and it did do that. With a fairly high current rating (so not likely to poop out on OC). So I try to print a label, and... nothing. So I eventually break down and buy the optional adapter for $50. Turns out it is unregulated. At no load, the adapter makes *10V* and at the instant the motor cranks the label through the print area, the voltage drops down to 7V due to the increased current draw. So it really needed the elevated (unspecified) 10V voltage to make the keyboard and display and control chip work. That lesson taught me, that the specification printed on the housing ("7VDC") could be regulated or unregulated, and there is no way to know which is appropriate. They kinda got you by the nuts. :-) Thanks, sounds similar to my current trial experience with ac adapters. I had to return the first laptop charger because, when connected, the slightest tap of the plug/barrel/jack can cause the battery to take over as if the ac adapter were "not" connected. Maybe this all points back to that less than stellar power supply standard? With another laptop charger, can't get the battery to take over no matter how hard I wiggle that barrel plug. And that's learning by making mistakes. As for your laptop, I don't see a reason in what I've seen in the schematic so far, for there to be a dependency on adapter power rating. Your laptop is the 90W design. A 19V adapter of 90W or 135W should work. The charging circuit has control of what it is doing, and is not dependent on external impedance characteristics. The charger chip has slow start (inrush limit), so if the adapter is already plugged into the wall and you shove the barrel into the laptop jack, the adapter doesn't quit on OC. There is a clamp diode near the jack, so if the barrel is removed while the adapter is powered, the inductive kick-back is quenched. The design has a current sampling shunt, which implies the chip can sense the current. And knows if too much current is being drawn. And it has a fair number of MOSFETs to control various things. As long as MOSFETs are saturated (fully ON or fully OFF), they don't get all that warm. And that's important. It's easy to burn out a MOSFET with no heatsink, by turning it half-ON by design. This is why SMPS circuits take turns with MOSFETs fully ON or fully OFF, to achieve a desired result. The devices then get warm but not hot. There are adapters that have more than two wires, and that immediately makes me suspicious. It implies some form of control, or "adapter power rating checking" being done by the laptop. That tends to happen with stuff above 65W. You're likely to find 65W designs to be pretty simple and carefree. Anything above that, you should keep your eyes open, and do a bit of Googling to learn of the issues. Paul Thanks (Guru Paul), there's no better way to know the truth than to go straight to the source/schematic. :-) It's good to know that my laptop can definitely take a more powerful (90W) power supply, but, so far, the makers of "quality" laptop chargers do not offer anything more powerful than 90W. Although, I think I saw some (120W?) at the store by other makers. I might go back to look more closely at those more powerful laptop chargers. So far, I've only come across 2-wire laptop chargers but, now that I know, I'll watch out for non-2-wire laptop chargers. |
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