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PC occasionally freezing



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 7th 21, 08:15 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Larc[_3_]
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Posts: 383
Default PC occasionally freezing

I recently bought a new motherboard for my main PC and shunted others down the line
until I got rid of an old one causing problems. The motherboard originally in my
main machine (ASRock Fatal1ty H370 Performance) went into the machine in my bedroom
(replaced H270 Performance). But I've been getting occasional freezing on that since
the change. Everything locks up and I have to hit the case reset button to reboot.
Once Windows restarts, it runs with no apparent problems. The event viewer indicates
ID 41, Kernel-Power, so I put a new PSU in. No change. Still getting freezing that
occasionally occurs in the first 20 or 30 minutes the machine is on, never after that
so far. When it happens, it tends to be either during or immediately after a
procedure such as running a Windows Defender scan. Yet nothing is overheating. The
board has the same CPU (including heatsink & fan) and memory modules it had when it
was in my main PC and ran with no problems. Incidentally, the new and original PSUs
check out fine and both run other machines flawlessly.

Any ideas what could be causing these freezes other than PSU or overheating? I'm
thinking an electrical connection on the motherboard could be grounding out on
occasion before everything heats up properly, but that's really just a stab in the
dark considering what happens and when.

Larc
  #2  
Old April 7th 21, 09:54 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Rene Lamontagne
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Posts: 187
Default PC occasionally freezing

On 2021-04-07 2:15 p.m., Larc wrote:
I recently bought a new motherboard for my main PC and shunted others down the line
until I got rid of an old one causing problems. The motherboard originally in my
main machine (ASRock Fatal1ty H370 Performance) went into the machine in my bedroom
(replaced H270 Performance). But I've been getting occasional freezing on that since
the change. Everything locks up and I have to hit the case reset button to reboot.
Once Windows restarts, it runs with no apparent problems. The event viewer indicates
ID 41, Kernel-Power, so I put a new PSU in. No change. Still getting freezing that
occasionally occurs in the first 20 or 30 minutes the machine is on, never after that
so far. When it happens, it tends to be either during or immediately after a
procedure such as running a Windows Defender scan. Yet nothing is overheating. The
board has the same CPU (including heatsink & fan) and memory modules it had when it
was in my main PC and ran with no problems. Incidentally, the new and original PSUs
check out fine and both run other machines flawlessly.

Any ideas what could be causing these freezes other than PSU or overheating? I'm
thinking an electrical connection on the motherboard could be grounding out on
occasion before everything heats up properly, but that's really just a stab in the
dark considering what happens and when.

Larc


Can't think of much offhand, but you might try unplugging and reseatting
all connectors including memory modules, if you haven't already done this.

Rene

  #3  
Old April 8th 21, 01:17 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Larc[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 383
Default PC occasionally freezing

On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 15:54:06 -0500, Rene Lamontagne wrote:

| Can't think of much offhand, but you might try unplugging and reseatting
| all connectors including memory modules, if you haven't already done this.

Thanks, Rene. I've done that partially, but will redo and include connections I
missed.

Larc
  #4  
Old April 8th 21, 02:02 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
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Posts: 1,467
Default PC occasionally freezing

Larc wrote:
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 15:54:06 -0500, Rene Lamontagne wrote:

| Can't think of much offhand, but you might try unplugging and reseatting
| all connectors including memory modules, if you haven't already done this.

Thanks, Rene. I've done that partially, but will redo and include connections I
missed.

Larc


Check for VRM overheat.

That's the Google-provided hint.

*******

Once upon a time, in a land far far away, there were VRMs.

This is the VCore voltage regulator. It started as a module,
but was also soldered to the motherboard. That gave it the
name Voltage Regulator Down (VRD), when it was soldered down.
My first one put out a measly 35W, had a single phase, and
used a pretty good sized MOSFET.

Back in the day, there was no feedback. Designers were
worried about thermal runaway. They had to guess at what
max power would be, and add a generous heatsink. This is
basically open loop design.

Then, more recently, power limiters were fitted. At the same
time, you may have noticed the heatsinks are getting smaller
and more poorly designed. The design is now closed loop, and
it's because of feedback about how the VCore is running,
allowed it to run burning hot.

When I bought my latest board, I hadn't noticed this. I didn't
even have it as a particular item to check on my checklist.

It was the usual deal. Burned my finger on the heatsink
when testing the board on the kitchen table. Ended up
turning off turbo, as well as fitting a fan right next
to the VRM cooler.

In the old days, a board would not leave the factory, if
a customer could burn their finger on it. Today, this
seems to be OK.

Some manufacturers, their "auto-overclock" is too aggressive
and they're using the wrong VCore. The user is then forced
to do the research, to figure out what values might better
serve the board.

There is a suggestion that the Kernel Power, is a report
of overheat, arriving at kernel level. Adjusting BIOS conditions
and taking it off "auto/auto" may allow reducing VCore heatsink
below "insanely hot".

Paul
  #5  
Old April 10th 21, 01:13 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Larc[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 383
Default PC occasionally freezing

On Thu, 08 Apr 2021 09:02:09 -0400, Paul wrote:

| Once upon a time, in a land far far away, there were VRMs.
|
| This is the VCore voltage regulator. It started as a module,
| but was also soldered to the motherboard. That gave it the
| name Voltage Regulator Down (VRD), when it was soldered down.
| My first one put out a measly 35W, had a single phase, and
| used a pretty good sized MOSFET.
|
| Back in the day, there was no feedback. Designers were
| worried about thermal runaway. They had to guess at what
| max power would be, and add a generous heatsink. This is
| basically open loop design.
|
| Then, more recently, power limiters were fitted. At the same
| time, you may have noticed the heatsinks are getting smaller
| and more poorly designed. The design is now closed loop, and
| it's because of feedback about how the VCore is running,
| allowed it to run burning hot.
|
| When I bought my latest board, I hadn't noticed this. I didn't
| even have it as a particular item to check on my checklist.
|
| It was the usual deal. Burned my finger on the heatsink
| when testing the board on the kitchen table. Ended up
| turning off turbo, as well as fitting a fan right next
| to the VRM cooler.
|
| In the old days, a board would not leave the factory, if
| a customer could burn their finger on it. Today, this
| seems to be OK.
|
| Some manufacturers, their "auto-overclock" is too aggressive
| and they're using the wrong VCore. The user is then forced
| to do the research, to figure out what values might better
| serve the board.
|
| There is a suggestion that the Kernel Power, is a report
| of overheat, arriving at kernel level. Adjusting BIOS conditions
| and taking it off "auto/auto" may allow reducing VCore heatsink
| below "insanely hot".

Thanks, Paul. The motherboard and CPU in question ran in my main computer for about
3 years with no problems. I didn't change BIOS settings when I moved it. Should the
VCore start giving problems now when it never did before? Besides, it's an H370
that's not set up for overclocking. I could and did disable turbo boost and will
give it some time to see if that helps. Freezing doesn't always occur.

Larc
  #6  
Old April 10th 21, 06:32 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default PC occasionally freezing

Larc wrote:
On Thu, 08 Apr 2021 09:02:09 -0400, Paul wrote:

| Once upon a time, in a land far far away, there were VRMs.
|
| This is the VCore voltage regulator. It started as a module,
| but was also soldered to the motherboard. That gave it the
| name Voltage Regulator Down (VRD), when it was soldered down.
| My first one put out a measly 35W, had a single phase, and
| used a pretty good sized MOSFET.
|
| Back in the day, there was no feedback. Designers were
| worried about thermal runaway. They had to guess at what
| max power would be, and add a generous heatsink. This is
| basically open loop design.
|
| Then, more recently, power limiters were fitted. At the same
| time, you may have noticed the heatsinks are getting smaller
| and more poorly designed. The design is now closed loop, and
| it's because of feedback about how the VCore is running,
| allowed it to run burning hot.
|
| When I bought my latest board, I hadn't noticed this. I didn't
| even have it as a particular item to check on my checklist.
|
| It was the usual deal. Burned my finger on the heatsink
| when testing the board on the kitchen table. Ended up
| turning off turbo, as well as fitting a fan right next
| to the VRM cooler.
|
| In the old days, a board would not leave the factory, if
| a customer could burn their finger on it. Today, this
| seems to be OK.
|
| Some manufacturers, their "auto-overclock" is too aggressive
| and they're using the wrong VCore. The user is then forced
| to do the research, to figure out what values might better
| serve the board.
|
| There is a suggestion that the Kernel Power, is a report
| of overheat, arriving at kernel level. Adjusting BIOS conditions
| and taking it off "auto/auto" may allow reducing VCore heatsink
| below "insanely hot".

Thanks, Paul. The motherboard and CPU in question ran in my main computer for about
3 years with no problems. I didn't change BIOS settings when I moved it. Should the
VCore start giving problems now when it never did before? Besides, it's an H370
that's not set up for overclocking. I could and did disable turbo boost and will
give it some time to see if that helps. Freezing doesn't always occur.

Larc


Some brands boost VCore above the recommended value,
as part of their "stability program". You can see similar
things on memory. For example, on a server board, maybe
a memory is given "precisely 2.5V". The equivalent generation
desktop board (no overclock) might be 2.65V for memory.

Modern designs have more environment monitoring than
designs in the past. You would need to find an inspired description
for "Kernel Power", to understand what the problem is.

Since the system does not freeze (totally unresponsive, no Stop Code in
the log), then you know the system was sane when it logged the
event, so it's some kind of environmental signal.

Excessive power as recorded by a power monitor on the VCore chip,
excessive temperature (harder to get, because manufacturers are
cheapskates). But if Intel says in a VRM or VRD spec to
"do it this way", then the feature gets added quietly. No
VCore regulator company can afford to make non-compliant silicon
for a big market (millions of regulators per year as a potential market).

*******

When you move a system, there is a small chance of bumping a heatsink
or shaking something loose, and then it does not cool properly. In
years past, it was the Northbridge heatsink which was a problem. U-pins
were soldered to the motherboard, but the metal was a poor choice
and solder did not wet the pins properly. Dell was so impressed with
the Intel design, Dell

Did as they were told, used the Intel-recommended restraint.

Put an electrical continuity check in, so when the U-pins pulled
out, the computer would refuse to power up. They used a little
ohm-metering circuit, to verify the strap had fallen off.

Such are double-standards :-)

Paul
 




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