Removable Hard Drive Bay Problems Anyone?

Sorry if this has been covered. I've been using removable hard drive bays
for years without problems. The design I chose implements a "Centronics"
type connector (looks like a parallel connector for a printer.)

Things are great for years. Then? I buy a couple of new WD hard drives
and then I've then got problems like: One or the other drive not
recognized during POST, sometimes I get clicking by the drives as if power
problems, sometimes the OS freezes, checkdisk reports bad blocks.

I try the drives connected directly to the MoBo IDE connector. No
problems. Smooth as silk.

I presume, at this point, it's a drive bay gone bad. So, I buy some new
drive bays/trays. I've got two of them. I change them both.

Hook the drives up in the new removable bays and BAM! Same problems again.

So, naturally, it seems that the drive bays are at fault because hooked
straight to the motherboard IDE connector these new drives work perfectly.

Anyone else had this problem?

Thanks,
//rus//

On Fri, 13 May 2005 07:47:36 GMT, Rus wrote:

Sorry if this has been covered. I've been using removable hard drive bays
for years without problems. The design I chose implements a "Centronics"
type connector (looks like a parallel connector for a printer.)

Things are great for years. Then? I buy a couple of new WD hard drives
and then I've then got problems like: One or the other drive not
recognized during POST, sometimes I get clicking by the drives as if power
problems, sometimes the OS freezes, checkdisk reports bad blocks.

I try the drives connected directly to the MoBo IDE connector. No
problems. Smooth as silk.

I presume, at this point, it's a drive bay gone bad. So, I buy some new
drive bays/trays. I've got two of them. I change them both.

Hook the drives up in the new removable bays and BAM! Same problems again.

So, naturally, it seems that the drive bays are at fault because hooked
straight to the motherboard IDE connector these new drives work perfectly.

Anyone else had this problem?

What bay do you have?

Is it ATA compatible with the new HD?

Does it have 80 wires? If not, then it is not ATA.

As one poster has pointed out in other threads, drive bays can be
problematic because they fudge on the ATA standard.

We use Directron Kingwin with good success. My son is running a 250GB
HD in a KF-23 without any problems.

http://www.directron.com/kf23.html

(Bob) wrote in news:42845c74.2868574@news-
server.houston.rr.com:

On Fri, 13 May 2005 07:47:36 GMT, Rus wrote:

Sorry if this has been covered. I've been using removable hard drive
bays
for years without problems. The design I chose implements a "Centronics"
type connector (looks like a parallel connector for a printer.)

Things are great for years. Then? I buy a couple of new WD hard drives
and then I've then got problems like: One or the other drive not
recognized during POST, sometimes I get clicking by the drives as if
power
problems, sometimes the OS freezes, checkdisk reports bad blocks.

I try the drives connected directly to the MoBo IDE connector. No
problems. Smooth as silk.

I presume, at this point, it's a drive bay gone bad. So, I buy some new
drive bays/trays. I've got two of them. I change them both.

Hook the drives up in the new removable bays and BAM! Same problems
again.

So, naturally, it seems that the drive bays are at fault because hooked
straight to the motherboard IDE connector these new drives work
perfectly.

Anyone else had this problem?

What bay do you have?

Is it ATA compatible with the new HD?

Does it have 80 wires? If not, then it is not ATA.

As one poster has pointed out in other threads, drive bays can be
problematic because they fudge on the ATA standard.

We use Directron Kingwin with good success. My son is running a 250GB
HD in a KF-23 without any problems.

http://www.directron.com/kf23.html



Strange. When I had just one drive bay connected I didn't have any
problems, either. When I fired up the other drive in a removable bay (on
the same IDE channel) then I had problems.

(Yes, master/slave jumpers set appropriately for each and both drives are
ATA-133 fresh from WD and the KingWin KF-20's are ATA-133 capable with 80
wire cables. One 120GB drive and one 160GB drive. Both are the "JB"
special editions with a 3 year warranty.)

First set of removable drive bays were some no-name KF-20. Then, I bought
KingWin KF-20's from NewEgg.com as replacements.

//rus//

(Bob) wrote in news:42845c74.2868574@news-
server.houston.rr.com:

On Fri, 13 May 2005 07:47:36 GMT, Rus wrote:

Sorry if this has been covered. I've been using removable hard drive bays
for years without problems. The design I chose implements a "Centronics"
type connector (looks like a parallel connector for a printer.)

Things are great for years. Then? I buy a couple of new WD hard drives
and then I've then got problems like: One or the other drive not
recognized during POST, sometimes I get clicking by the drives as if power
problems, sometimes the OS freezes, checkdisk reports bad blocks.

I try the drives connected directly to the MoBo IDE connector. No
problems. Smooth as silk.

I presume, at this point, it's a drive bay gone bad. So, I buy some new
drive bays/trays. I've got two of them. I change them both.

Hook the drives up in the new removable bays and BAM! Same problems again.

So, naturally, it seems that the drive bays are at fault because hooked
straight to the motherboard IDE connector these new drives work perfectly.

Anyone else had this problem?

What bay do you have?

Is it ATA compatible with the new HD?

Does it have 80 wires? If not, then it is not ATA.

As one poster has pointed out in other threads, drive bays can be
problematic because they fudge on the ATA standard.

We use Directron Kingwin with good success. My son is running a 250GB
HD in a KF-23 without any problems.

http://www.directron.com/kf23.html



Just looked at the KF-23. Yep. It's got the same "Centronics" connector.
Does your son have one or two hard drives using those KF-23 bays?

I'm wondering if two ATA's on the same IDE channel can be a problem.

//rus//

On Fri, 13 May 2005 08:18:19 GMT, Rus wrote:
We use Directron Kingwin with good success. My son is running a 250GB
HD in a KF-23 without any problems.

http://www.directron.com/kf23.html

Strange. When I had just one drive bay connected I didn't have any
problems, either. When I fired up the other drive in a removable bay (on
the same IDE channel) then I had problems.

(Yes, master/slave jumpers set appropriately for each and both drives are
ATA-133 fresh from WD and the KingWin KF-20's are ATA-133 capable with 80
wire cables. One 120GB drive and one 160GB drive. Both are the "JB"
special editions with a 3 year warranty.)

First set of removable drive bays were some no-name KF-20. Then, I bought
KingWin KF-20's from NewEgg.com as replacements.

I wonder what would have happened if you put the second drive on the
other IDE cable.

Maybe two removeable bays on one IDE channel is too much to ask in
terms of ATA compatibility.

I am building a new machine as we speak and I am going to try the
Enermax DynaBacker 3.5" RAID System

http://store.yahoo.com/directron/es352b.html

I did some research with other vendors and they claim the unit works
as advertised - no returns thus far. The thing I like about it is that
I can do backups on the fly and pull the mirror disk to put on the
shelf for disaster recovery. That way I do not have to use the mirror.

IOW, if it works as described in the manual, I can insert a second
drive, build the mirror and then pull the drive. If that doesn't work
then there is a manual backup facility that can be automated on a
daily or weekly basis.

On Fri, 13 May 2005 08:25:03 GMT, Rus wrote:

NB: I crossposted this to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage so that
some real experts can comment. That's why I included the last post so
they can see what the problem is.

---

The previous post:

We use Directron Kingwin with good success. My son is running a 250GB
HD in a KF-23 without any problems.

http://www.directron.com/kf23.html

Strange. When I had just one drive bay connected I didn't have any
problems, either. When I fired up the other drive in a removable bay (on
the same IDE channel) then I had problems.

(Yes, master/slave jumpers set appropriately for each and both drives are
ATA-133 fresh from WD and the KingWin KF-20's are ATA-133 capable with 80
wire cables. One 120GB drive and one 160GB drive. Both are the "JB"
special editions with a 3 year warranty.)

First set of removable drive bays were some no-name KF-20. Then, I bought
KingWin KF-20's from NewEgg.com as replacements.

I wonder what would have happened if you put the second drive on the
other IDE cable.

Maybe two removeable bays on one IDE channel is too much to ask in
terms of ATA compatibility.

---

The latest post:

Just looked at the KF-23. Yep. It's got the same "Centronics" connector.

Yes, they all do. It's supposedly the 80-wire ribbon connector that
makes it ATA compatible.

Does your son have one or two hard drives using those KF-23 bays?

He only has one. He opted to build the OS on a smaller drive and put a
250GB in the removeable tray. He has other drives with stuff on them
so he bought some extra trays.

I'm wondering if two ATA's on the same IDE channel can be a problem.

Let's see what the experts have to say about this.

I almost went for a dual bay system like yours until I found the
Enermax 352 unit (which uses only one IDE channel).

(Bob) wrote in news:42849148.12303501@news-
server.houston.rr.com:

On Fri, 13 May 2005 08:25:03 GMT, Rus wrote:

NB: I crossposted this to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage so that
some real experts can comment. That's why I included the last post so
they can see what the problem is.

--- Snip


I wonder what would have happened if you put the second drive on the
other IDE cable.



The other IDE channel has optical drives on it. I can't say that I want to
d/c those opticals to run a hard drive. The other option there is running a
hard drive and an optical on the same IDE channel. That can bring out other
gremlins and glitches. I've learned the hard way that data is safer and
transfers are faster if I keep hard drives mated with hard drives on the same
IDE channel along with opticals mated with opticals on the same IDE channel.

I've already got a PCI-IDE adapter to run other optical drives as well. Yes,
I've got lots of drives, but, I've got the power to run all of it. PS is 550
watt with 30A on the 12V rail and 18A on the 5V rail. I really don't think
it's a power supply problem because, truthfully, after I connected the drives
straight to the motherboard, there have been no problems whatsoever. Full
surface scans of each drive have been run at least 5 times over the last 2
weeks and no bad blocks. Just pure perfection as long as those removable
drive bays are not incorporated into the configuration.

Oh, I forgot to say, it's gets wierder. I was going crazy trying to figure
out why my computer wouldn't regenerate from a state of hibernation. Lo' and
behold, now that the hard drives are connected straight to the motherboard,
this computer will return from hibernation. With both of those removable
bays connected, the computer reported that it could not establish previous
state when starting up from a state of hibernation.

I triple-boot to W98SE, W2K, and WXP. Both W2K and WXP would fail to return
from "hibernation" with those two removable bays connected. W98SE? I don't
know how it would have responded to "hibernation," because I only use it for
making boot floppies and for hosting PowerQuest DriveImage and Partition
Magic.

Once I ripped out the removable bays and connected the drives straight to the
motherboard, I thought I'd try the hibernate function. Sure enough, removing
the bays fixed my hibernation problems. Computer now hibernates and returns
from hibernation without a glitch. I've used the hibernate state probably 10
to 15 times and it now works perfectly.

Yesterday, however, I tried re-installing the KF-20 drive bays. Immediately,
at first POST, BIOS couldn't find the IDE drives. The POST stalled while
trying to enumerate connected IDE drives. So, I took out the bays, scratched
my head, and Googled the heck out of the internet. Can't say that I've found
any one any where who mentions situations like mine. The only thing I've
found is one KB article at Western Digital which gives very few details.
That KB article says, however, that "it is not uncommon" for removable drive
bays to cause problems.

---

The latest post:

Just looked at the KF-23. Yep. It's got the same "Centronics" connector.

Yes, they all do. It's supposedly the 80-wire ribbon connector that
makes it ATA compatible.

Well, actually, not all of these bays use that "Centronics" connector.
There's a model called KF-101 that uses an internal connector with 64
cavities. (It seems that these model numbers are shared by many of the
Chinese/Taiwanese manufacturers. It's like your KF-23 and my KF-20. The
same designs are sold under a whole bunch of different brand names. I
suspect one factory in Taiwan sells these to all sorts of companies and
brands them accordingly. So, I just happen to be looking at KingWin KF-101
bays at NewEgg, but, I believe the same connector specification would exist
in any removable bay designated as KF-101. And, by the way, I'm not touting
NewEgg. It's just that NewEgg gives some really large detailed views of the
insides and outsides of the drive bays systems they have for sale. I can
examine bays there and see the connectors for most models.)

The KF-101 connector has 64 cavities where each cavity houses a very small
connector pin and each pin is shrouded in it's own cavity of a plastic
enclosure--much like a standard IDE cable arrangement utilizes. That
connector in the KF-101 looks like an IDE or SCSI connector.

There's also a SanMax branded model P96i that utilizes the same 64 pin cavity
connector as the KingWin KF-101.

SanMax is, for some reason I can't figure out, is calling theirs a "96 pin"
connection even though it's a 64 cavity connector. I don't know how they
calculate 96 pin functions into that array unless 80 "pins" are considered to
be the 40 IDE connections with their associated ground wires + 16 utilized
pins for something else involved with the LED's, power, and so forth.

On the other hand, there's your KF-23 and my KF-20 with the "Centronics"
connector. That "Centronics" connector has relatively very large metal
terminals that are in an "open array." Nothing segregates one connector from
the next except an air gap. (The "Centronics" connector is used for parallel
port connectors, SCSI connectors ((slow-SCSI)), and so forth.)

I'm only wondering if some "cross-talk" occurs in those Centronics connectors
on my system? I know that as SCSI got faster, it seems that specs eliminated
the Centronics connector. I'm wondering if I might benefit by eliminating
that Centronics connector in this IDE array?

I'm just wondering if these new WD drives are implementing ATA to the limit
and maybe all my data corruption and drive clicking problems stem from the
incorporation of the "Centronics" connector in these KF-20 bays?

I'm just about to order some removable bays with that "new" 64 cavity
connector to see if that cures my ills. If it does, I'll post in this NG.

I'm hoping, however, someone in the NG community has experienced this before
me and I'm hoping that person will shed some light on this situation before I
waste about $120 U.S. on a bunch of bays/trays that might only going to fail
me again.


Does your son have one or two hard drives using those KF-23 bays?

He only has one. He opted to build the OS on a smaller drive and put a
250GB in the removeable tray. He has other drives with stuff on them
so he bought some extra trays.

I'm wondering if two ATA's on the same IDE channel can be a problem.

Let's see what the experts have to say about this.

I almost went for a dual bay system like yours until I found the
Enermax 352 unit (which uses only one IDE channel).


Maybe two removeable bays on one IDE channel is too much to ask in
terms of ATA compatibility.

Yes. I think you are right, at least, in my configuration. One removable
bay causes no apparent problems. I hook up two of them and the thing won't
even POST.

I'll shut up now and see what gets posted. I'm really missing the removable
bays, though.

//rus//

Bob wrote in message
...
Rus wrote

We use Directron Kingwin with good success. My son
is running a 250GB HD in a KF-23 without any problems.

http://www.directron.com/kf23.html

Strange. When I had just one drive bay connected I didn't
have any problems, either. When I fired up the other drive in
a removable bay (on the same IDE channel) then I had problems.

That sort of thing isnt that uncommon, essentially because
those removable by systems flout the ATA standard.

When you deliberately flout the standard, all bets are off.

(Yes, master/slave jumpers set appropriately for each

Thats one problem with WD drives, if cable select isnt
used, they have a different jumper config for single drive
on the cable and when there are two drives on the cable.
So you cant necessarily just unplug one drive and keep going.

and both drives are ATA-133 fresh from WD and the KingWin KF-20's
are ATA-133 capable with 80 wire cables. One 120GB drive and one
160GB drive. Both are the "JB" special editions with a 3 year warranty.)

First set of removable drive bays were some no-name KF-20.
Then, I bought KingWin KF-20's from NewEgg.com as replacements.

I wonder what would have happened if you
put the second drive on the other IDE cable.

It'd be better to use SATA removable drive bays that
dont have that problem and dont flout the standard.

Maybe two removeable bays on one IDE channel
is too much to ask in terms of ATA compatibility.

Its certainly flouting the standard even worse than one.

---

The latest post:

Just looked at the KF-23. Yep. It's got the same "Centronics" connector.

Yes, they all do. It's supposedly the 80-wire
ribbon connector that makes it ATA compatible.

Still flouts the standard.

Does your son have one or two hard drives using those KF-23 bays?

He only has one. He opted to build the OS on a smaller drive
and put a 250GB in the removeable tray. He has other drives
with stuff on them so he bought some extra trays.

I'm wondering if two ATA's on the same IDE channel can be a problem.

Yes, it flouts the standard even more comprehensively.

Let's see what the experts have to say about this.

I almost went for a dual bay system like yours until I found
the Enermax 352 unit (which uses only one IDE channel).

I'd only use SATA if I had to have a removable bay system.

On Fri, 13 May 2005 17:08:06 GMT, Rus wrote:

That KB article says, however, that "it is not uncommon" for removable drive
bays to cause problems.

Why do I get the feeling you are experiencing something else, like a
flaky cable?

Is this problem dependent on which OS you bring up?

On Sat, 14 May 2005 04:37:53 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

Thats one problem with WD drives, if cable select isnt
used, they have a different jumper config for single drive
on the cable and when there are two drives on the cable.
So you cant necessarily just unplug one drive and keep going.

I was not aware of that. Do you have a reference?

I have used the second disk, the one in the removeable bay, as a slave
only on both IDE channels without any problems. The reason for that is
my CD-RW wants to be a master so I only have slave positions left. I
used the slave setting and not the cable select setting on the drive.
No problems.

However, YMMV. The machine I am using is so old that it's developing a
patina. It's a 500 MHz K6-II with ATA33 IDE. I'd keep it another 6
years if the MB weren't acting up.