Removable Hard Drive Bay Problems Anyone?

Bob wrote in message
...
Richard Lowen wrote

The student computer labs at UC Los Angeles (UCLA)
have used the Kingwin removable hard drive trays for
years, and they've seen no reason to stop using them.
Theirs is even the old type that doesn't have the cam lock.

Finally someone with the voice of experience.

Thats flagrantly dishonest, Rus was too.

Can you tell us the highest ATA rating used?

Gotta be ATA33 with systems that old.

Bob wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote

Bob wrote

No, I am playing devil's advocate.

You're doing a hell of a lot more than that.

Actually not.

Actually, you are.

You are reading in a lot more than is there.

Nope, YOU said that YOU are planning to use a system
that flouts the standards in the new system you are buying.

Thats nothing even remotely resembling
anything like "playing devil's advocate"

Perhaps you are not used to dealing with Texans.

Wrong again.

They are very AngloSaxon in their ways.

Pity the anglosaxons didnt play devil's advocate.

I am also interested in discovering how a vendor like Directron
and a manufacturer like Kingwin - both reputable - can get by
with foisting defective products onto the market.

The answer is obvious, some like removable drive bays
and cant manage to grasp the importance of standards.

If the standards can be "relaxed" and the system works,

Pity about the times when it doesnt, as Rus rubbed your nose in.

so what about these standards?

So nothing. Anyone with a clue doesnt flout standards when
there is a standard complaint approach buyable from the
same operation that is flogging the standard flouting approach.

The term "importance" implies a value judgement,

Nope.

to which you and others are entitled, but I am entitled to
consider the standards "relaxed" if the system works for me.

And you are welcome to the fangs in your arse as well.

I am certainly not going to spend more money
on SATA - both the drives and the bays

Thats a lie too.

- when PATA works for me,

You havent even tried it with modern ATA100 and ATA133 drives.

not on the basis of what you judge to be "important".

If you have some concrete evidence that the kind of setup I
have - quality components throughout - is defective, I will listen.

You chose to ignore that when Rus rubbed your nose in it.

And I dont actually give a flying red **** if you ever listen or not.

But you have this removable bay bigotry

Ad-hom noted.

that may serve you well, but it is not relevant to me as it stands
until you can back it up with something that applies directly to me.

You just ignored it when Rus did just that. You're the one eyed bigot.

Directron clearly doesnt have a clue about that, viz those
stupid round IDE cables that flout the ATA standard even
more comprehensive than the IDE removable drive bays do.

I have debated the round IDE cable issue and the consensus
was that quality cables are just as good as flat cables.

That aint how rigorous engineering is done.

Your prejudices are noted. You like to be a purist, which is fine
if that's your thing. I am a bit more adventuresome and I like
innovative approaches even if they relax standards a little -
especially when they work better than alternative approaches.

Pity that aint true of standard compliant removable drive bays.

I have seen far more weeping and moaning about SATA than round
IDE cables and removable bays when used with quality components.

Nothing to do with SATA in removable drive bays.

I know for a fact that a low-margin operation like
Directron can't afford problems with components,
so it there really was a problem here, they would
not be offering the Kingwin removable bays.

Complete and utter pig ignorant drivel.

Ad-hom noted. I have been a gentleman with you throughout this debate.

You're lying now.

I expect you to follow suit.

Your expectations are your problem.

I dont care for flagrant hypocrisy myself.

If you have a message that you think is important, then I will listen.

You clearly dont.

But you are not my wife so you can't
tell me what to do and what not to do.

True of you in spades and the expectation of yours above.

I will respectfully decline to follow your admonitions,
keeping in mind that I am taking a bit of a risk.

You are always welcome to stand on your
head and whistle dixie if thats that grabs you.

The motherboard and hard drive(s) are _NOT_ the problem
when a removable bay has a flaky connector implementation.

I can imagine low quality components to exacerbate a flaky
connector problem. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether
the Kingwin KF-series of removable bays are uniformly bad.

Nope, the issue is actually whether they flout the ATA standard
and whether it makes any sense to do that when a standard
compliant system using SATA drives doesnt.

SATA has more known problems than round IDE cables
and removable bays made by reputable manufacturers.

Lie when used in removable drive bays.

Also SATA is more expensive.

Another lie.

I will wait another generation before jumping into SATA.

Your problem.

I come back to my original statement: I find it difficult
to accept that Directron and Kingwin can sell junk on the
open market for so long (over 5 years that I know about).

Directron clearly does with those stupid round IDE cables
and the extended length 80 wire flat ribbon cables in spades.

THATS the evidence that there is no rigorous testing at all.

They just flog whatever the market will buy.

Not when it costs them money.

Easy to claim. And those standard flouting obscenitys dont
necessarily cost Directron a cent when they dont work properly.

I know some of the Directron people, since I was one of their
earliest customers before they went national. I have discussed
the issue of second-rate parts and they tell me that it pays
them to weed such crap out of their product line because
poor quality costs them more than they make on the sale.

And you're silly enough to buy that line of sales bull****
when they clearly continue to flog those flat ribbon
cables that are TWICE as long as the standard allows.

They cant even claim that there is any higher quality
than the standard complaint length cables either.

And they dont just flog Kingwin removable drive bays either.

I picked Kingwin because it was recommended
to me by the head of the technical group.

Irrelevant to that claim you made about what Directron sells.

I did not get into why they stocked other brands - that's
their business. But you can be assured that if they spot
a pattern of poor quality they will drop the product.

Separate matter entirely.

Take a look at what happened to their Epox offering. As recent as
a year ago they carried a full line of Epox MBs. Now they carru none.

And you have NO idea why they chose to drop them.

And they still flog Jetway which is even worse.

I talked directly to the man who is the head of the technical
group at Directron and asked him if they had any problems
with Kingwin removable bays. He said they have had no
more trouble with them than any other computer part.

Just waffle.

You cannot offer anything concrete to support that claim.

Its obviously just waffle. Anyone with a clue can see that.

Its never as simple as that with such a wide
variety of computer parts being sold by them.

We have seen people on these forums who can't even connect
an IDE ribbon cable properly, so it would not surprise me at all
to find that there are people on these forums who have reported
trouble with removable bays, especially the kind found in junk shops.

Pity about Rus who doesnt qualify on either count
and the most recent report apart from Rus in csipchs

Did he tell you the components he used?

He told YOU that he used Kingwin removable drive bays.

Is he qualified to work on hardware?

No qualifications necessary to observe the symptoms he reported.

Did he have other problems?

But like everything else in life, YMMV.

Yes, some are silly enough to flout standards when its perfectly
possible to buy a standard compliant removable drive bay using SATA.

You are obsessed with this standards stuff.
Psychologists have a term for that behavior

Ad-hom noted.

but I promised not to get personal.

Flagrant dishonesty noted.

Bob wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote

Yes, some are silly enough to flout standards when its perfectly
possible to buy a standard compliant removable drive bay using SATA.

You flaunt standards when you top post

Nope, no such 'standard'

and fail to use the apostrophe,

No possibility what so ever of that failing to work.

when it is perfectly possible to comply.

Of course, if English is your second language

It aint.

and you are new to Usenet,

Been using usenet LONG before you have thanks.

I can understand why you top post and fail to
use the apostrophe when it is clearly required.

Pathetic, really.

On Sun, 15 May 2005 13:01:19 GMT, (Bob)
wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 12:18:04 GMT, kony wrote:

The implication is that you can use their drive bays successfully if
you use good equipment.

This is reading like you're a shill for Kingwin.

No, I am playing devil's advocate. I thought that was obvious.

Fair enough but it was getting a bit too serious.



I am also interested in discovering how a vendor like Directron and a
manufacturer like Kingwin - both reputable - can get by with foisting
defective products onto the market. I know for a fact that a
low-margin operation like Directron can't afford problems with
components, so it there really was a problem here, they would not be
offering the Kingwin removable bays.

Directron sells parts... good parts AND bad parts.
Without question there is a lot of low-end junk parts sold
by DIrectron, as well as some decent gear. They sell
whatever sells. Kingwin has also made some crap parts, I
attribute their drive bay's success to the fancy enclosures,
which simply add to the cost... any manufacturer can buy a
truckload of extruded enclosures and add a few bucks to the
product cost.



The motherboard and hard drive(s) are _NOT_ the problem when
a removable bay has a flaky connector implementation.

I can imagine low quality components to exacerbate a flaky connector
problem. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether the Kingwin
KF-series of removable bays are uniformly bad.

I'd tend to think they just need more refinement, another
connector and more precision in bay alignment... an evolving
product still.




Citing a dozen other ways someone fluted the standards and
tested their own solution is no evidence that Kingwin's
products meet same rigorous testing standards and
reliability.

It is, however, grounds for investigating whether Kingwin did do such
testing.

Investigating?
Would you ask them and expect them to confess if they'd not?




It's just not so easy to keep a large
low-precision bay connected with a connector never meant for
this purpose.

I have used the Kingwin KF-21 for years, on a monthly basis. The
lockup is very tight - I have to use the front handle to lever the
tray in as tight as it can go. Once I turn the key that tray is tight
as though it were screwed into the bay. There is no slop at all.

OK, but that's more applicable to worn gear than "new"... no
slop when they're not all perfectly aligned in the first
place is worse than slop. I'm not suggesting they're not
aligned, I don't have a lab and statisically significant
samples to draw this conclusion.


Here's a real brain-teaser:

Kingwin may easily be negligent if their connectors aren't
certified by the connector manufacturer to be suitable for
the ATA66-133 bus speeds, AND to be suitable for the load
(mechanical stress) of the connected bay. If the connector
itself isn't suitable then by any good engineering standard
the device should never have gone to market at all.

I agree that such an indictment is possible. But I am requiring direct
evidence that Kingwin actually is guilty as charged. You and the
others could be guilty of a rush to judgement.

Well if they used connectors not rated for that speed or
mechanical load then there's no question they're guilty.
Perhaps this is something you might be further on by
contacting Kingwin, as their connector supplier might (or
might not, depending on customer volume) be willing to
disclose product data.



I come back to my original statement: I find it difficult to accept
that Directron and Kingwin can sell junk on the open market for so
long (over 5 years that I know about).

They sell some pretty poor system cases and power supplies.
A lot of their stuff is questionable (again, in addition to
other better parts). Do we isolate the concept of "junk" to
only one component category or assume that if they'd sell
one type of junk then they'd likely sell other categories as
well?

They sell (whatever sells), a buyer can't just buy there
without researching the product.


I talked directly to the man
who is the head of the technical group at Directron and asked him if
they had any problems with Kingwin removable bays. He said they have
had no more trouble with them than any other computer part.

That sounds a bit understated like a generic response.
What's the warranty on those? Perhaps the problem
exacerbates over time so Directron isn't going to hear about
flaws outside of a short warranty period. OR, it could be
sometime more simple, like Directron offering only a limited
time vendor warranty and all customer calls regarding
products outside of warranty period are simply referred to
the manufacturer by a Directron CSR, without the head of the
technical group ever getting involved.

While Directron is better than many companies out there, my
past experience in receiving broken cases (and their lack of
quality control and problem resolution) speaks poorly of the
company as a whole, they are not even in the same league as
(for example, Newegg) in this regard.



We have seen people on these forums who can't even connect an IDE
ribbon cable properly, so it would not surprise me at all to find that
there are people on these forums who have reported trouble with
removable bays, especially the kind found in junk shops.

But like everything else in life, YMMV.

The more isolated the connector is, the more burden there is
on the bay manufacturer to get it working right in a
"thoughless" manner for the user. You have a good point
that users may be doing something wrong, but if they manage
to hook up the IDE ribbon cable correctly to a bare drive,
I'd tend to think they'd not doing anything wrong using the
bay... except maybe trying to hot-plug it.

"Bob" wrote:
On Sun, 15 May 2005 09:39:26 -0700, "Richard Lowen"
wrote:

The student computer labs at UC Los Angeles (UCLA) have
used the Kingwin removable hard drive trays for years, and
they've seen no reason to stop using them. Theirs is even
the old type that doesn't have the cam lock.

Finally someone with the voice of experience.

Can you tell us the highest ATA rating used?


Sorry, I won't know that until Friday. I do know that
the rotation speed is 5,400 rpm and that the computers
seem to be a couple years old. I'm guessing now that
it's 66Bps. IOW, it doesn't push the envelope.


Rick Lowen

Rod Speed wrote:

.... snip ...

Yes, some are silly enough to flout standards when its perfectly
possible to buy a standard compliant removable drive bay using SATA.

Do you receive a commission per use of the word 'flout'? :-)

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"CBFalconer" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:

... snip ...

Yes, some are silly enough to flout standards when its perfectly
possible to buy a standard compliant removable drive bay using SATA.

Do you receive a commission per use of the word 'flout'? :-)

Do you receive a commission on the use of the word 'the' ?

On 2005-05-15 04:03, Bob wrote:
On Sun, 15 May 2005 04:30:21 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:


http://www.t13.org/docs2002/d1532v2r0d-ATA-ATAPI-7.pdf
Figure 9


I fail to see the significance of that figure.

-snip-

There is a possibility the cable segment length limits are exceeded
since the caddys add stubs between the cable connector and the drive itself.
(looking at the pictures of your caddy at a review site, I could see
there is a short ribbon cable inside it, which would add reflections)

If it's marginal situation, I'd think using only one caddy per cable,
and placing the caddy at the end connector would be the only way. You
could verify it by doing some measurements, looking at signal integrity
at each device.

I've seen stubs causing problems on SCSI adapters/carriers, where the
layout on the drive itself was near or over the max stub spec, so it's
not entirely up to the caddy either.

There is also the question of altering the drive strapping, as was
pointed out by another poster. CS could be the best way to handle this.

/Rolf

I've had 3 different bay drives. The last ones were
aluminum with temperature registers and LCDs.
None of the worked as well as external drives. I
use ADS and prefer the USB/Firewire combo
which will also hold DVD and CD burners and
players. About 65$ at Fry's. More expensive but
not if you have to replace one or two. If you go
external get the ones with the internal power supply
which makes moving them easier. Good luck.
: -)